Pinnacle PIC Time

[EMB170Pilot]

Have you been to Pinnacle? Don't talk crap about flagship if you havent been here!!

Ohh I thought yall were saying fagship! My mistake. Yall talk so fast over the radio

 

[Rook]

You are an idiot. You are one of the guys that make 9E look bad.

Too bad you cannot learn from example. Take a look at Rook.

Yawwwwwwwn...did I miss something Simon?

I gotta admit I was a little biased when the whole GIA thing started way back when. After flying with some of these guys and gals I can say that on the whole they are really sharp. A lot of them are my good friends now and it sucks that they may be stuck in the right seat a lot longer than they anticipated. With that being said I can't argue with the rules. Is it fair? Maybe. Maybe not. But a lot of us that didn't come up the military route had to do what we could to get the required time. A lot of folks on this board have already given their advice on what to do in this situation so I won't backtrack to that. This is a sensitive issue. I compare it to when we were hiring street captains. Three guys in my initial class were hired as captains, and all 3 had boeing PIC experience. All great guys who adapted to the training environment(LOL) and had no trouble being captains because they had already demonstrated their ability at prior airlines. Now we have a lot of guys getting hired as captains and hating the fact that they are being screwed blued and tattooed on reserve. And it will be that way for a while as the red bus is coming to a screeching halt and senior F/O's will be upgrading and pushing these guys farther down the list. Who deserves to be a captain more?
1. The F/O who's been here forever with the TT but not enough PIC?

2. The street guy who has no PIC 121 experience?

3. The street guy with prior 121?

4. The F/O with the time to upgrade.

Everyone knows that 9E has been under a magnifying glass because of our recent problems. Don't lump everyone under the banner that all of us here have our heads up our arses. Though it may seem like that sometimes. I do hope that those guys that are in this situation, will do what they can (legally)to get the time required because a lot of these F/O's will be good captains.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

PFT is the root of all evil

Agreed! I miss running into the stupid PFT dorks while I was at my last job

 

[Rook]

Ohh I thought yall were saying fagship! My mistake. Yall talk so fast over the radio

Apparently you haven't flown out of MEM have ya?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Best post I've read in a long time. Good point Rook...

 

[Rook]

In all seriousness, what are the mins to upgrade? Call me naive, but I find it hard to believe that a dude has to go rent a 152/172 to get his 250 hrs of PIC, and then he can be a captain at a 121 airline.


If true, what was that person flying before getting on at the airline?

Believe it zman. I know guys that interviewed here and were told that due to their low total/multi time, if they could get the required time they'd have a seat in the next class. So these guys went out and got more Duchess/Seminole/S.E. time, and next thing you know, they were in class.

 

[capt_zman]

scary.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I'm surprised the FSDO won't allow the right-seat time. FAR 61.163 says that the 250 PIC can be comprised, in part or whole, of SIC time under the supervision of a PIC. Here's the quote:

§ 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.


The regional that I used to fly for had a form that would allow a PIC to endorse an SIC's time for the purpose of meeting that reg. So it doesn't sound like Pinnacle is trying to get any special consideration, rather they are trying to get the FSDO to correctly intrepret the existing FAR.

 

[Godvek]

I still don't understand how you can log PIC time from the right seat if you are typed. No completition of IOE, no signoff, etc. Unless it is a 91 ferry, 121 regs apply, and since I am sure the GOM states the difference between PIC and SIC, you have to go with that. It is an FAA document and you take the more conservative of the two.

 

[Rook]

scary.

I know man I know. I used to think that if anyone can get through a 121 training environment, then they deserve to be where they are. After 3701 and the MKE accident/incident, I have to believe that that is not always the case. Whether one is flying a Baron single pilot 135, an SF3, Beech 1900, or and MD-11, there needs to be a certain amount of real-world experience before someone can sign their name on that dotted line that yes they do understand that they are responsible for what goes on inside that aircraft. Now with that being said...

I think that airlines that offer direct new-hire programs is a good thing. As long as the candidate demonstrates satisfactory performance in a thorough screening process. It's been going on in Europe and Asia for years without too many problems. It's easy to tell a lot of these guys to go out and get more experience but with the regional airlines hurting for folks, and with interview times going down to 600/100, what kind of experience do you think you're going to see at the interview? I was CFI'ng when I hit 1000/100 and couldn't get XJ to even flip me off when I started sending out my apps. So I went the freight route and was glad I did because it made me aware of what elements are out there that could kill you and kept me grounded that you can't base judgement on someone because of the aircraft they fly. By the same token, if I was lucky enough to have gotten hired by an airline back then, I'd assume the role of F/O without a clue and pay attention to all of the Captains I flew with, pick their brains, and put whatever I learn from the good Captains into my own bag of knowledge(a small bag at that). CFI'ng builds character and patience. Flying FR8 teaches you sphincter/bladder control when the radar is saying "you shoulda stayed in bed" flying T-props is hard,but rewarding and flying jets is a joy as long as you stay ahead of the game. We do the same thing at the regionals that they do at the majors. Our job is to transport pax safely.(for you UPS/Fedex guys just insert 'yourselves') The job of Captain is that much tougher because you have to live with the decision you make whether it is the wrong one or the right one. The company doesn't teach you that. That's something you have to learn on your own. Okay you guys just ignore that violin player and I'll get off the soapbox.

 

[blade230]

Guitar Guy,

Thank you, somebody who actually read the reg. before spouting off nonsense, and turning the wrong facts into yet another absolutely pointless PFT thread.

The FAR's, writtten by the FAA, state what both I and Guitar guy have said. You may hate the 9E PFters, but per the regs. they should be allowed to upgrade.

Good luck 9E. You guys should talk to OKC. I have already spoken to a FAA friend of mine, and he said that making up one's own interpretations of the FAA regs is wrong. He said the regs where NOT to be inter-preted/polated They are NOT guidelines, they are rules.

Safe flying,

 

[Jetjockey21]

I'm sorry but running out to build up that 250 PIC in a C152 or any single-engine does not make them ready to take command of any jet let alone one with 50 pax onboard. You would think that Pinnacle would have learned it's lesson after 3701 what can happen when you turn loose inexperienced crews. I only hope that the FAA does it's job and protect the public. I for one will not fly on them, nor will any of my family or friends.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

I still don't understand how you can log PIC time from the right seat if you are typed. No completition of IOE, no signoff, etc. Unless it is a 91 ferry, 121 regs apply, and since I am sure the GOM states the difference between PIC and SIC, you have to go with that. It is an FAA document and you take the more conservative of the two.

Thing is it's not the regulations that you are flying under that dictate what may be logged as PIC... it's part 61 that defines that, specifically 61.51. Under that reg, you don't have to sign for the jet to be able to log PIC in it. We can debate all day long the legitimacy of logging time where you didn't sign for the aircraft as PIC but the fact is it is legal. And as others have pointed out, the 250 PIC required for the ATP doesn't even have to be all PIC. Still, it is pretty amazing that this is going on. I'm not sure I could even spell "jet" when I had those kind of numbers!

cc

 

[jackbo]

I know you can log 61 PIC from the right seat if typed. Legal to log? Yes. Will majors honor that as PIC time when you apply? Nope.

I'm 99% sure though to take advantage of this reg you need to be typed. You can't log PIC for a plane you are not typed in. That is how the other airlines did it.

BTW, you are not PIC for decision making purposes or release signing purposes. For 121, there is one and only one PIC. However, even on a 121 flight the FO may log PIC when that person is sole manipulator of the controls if they are otherwised qualified (typed).

 

[xjcaptain]

I understand that there are legal ways for SIC's to log this MINIMUM amount of PIC time to become eligable for the ATP. Bottom line, it sure makes me uncomfortable to think of paying passengers in a CRJ sitting behind a PIC who has never really been a PIC. How about hiring more qualified SIC's and this entire discussion goes away.