Pinnacle PIC Time

[EMB170Pilot]

Have you been to Pinnacle? Don't talk crap about flagship if you havent been here!!

Ohh I thought yall were saying fagship! My mistake. Yall talk so fast over the radio

 

[Rook]

You are an idiot. You are one of the guys that make 9E look bad.

Too bad you cannot learn from example. Take a look at Rook.

Yawwwwwwwn...did I miss something Simon?

I gotta admit I was a little biased when the whole GIA thing started way back when. After flying with some of these guys and gals I can say that on the whole they are really sharp. A lot of them are my good friends now and it sucks that they may be stuck in the right seat a lot longer than they anticipated. With that being said I can't argue with the rules. Is it fair? Maybe. Maybe not. But a lot of us that didn't come up the military route had to do what we could to get the required time. A lot of folks on this board have already given their advice on what to do in this situation so I won't backtrack to that. This is a sensitive issue. I compare it to when we were hiring street captains. Three guys in my initial class were hired as captains, and all 3 had boeing PIC experience. All great guys who adapted to the training environment(LOL) and had no trouble being captains because they had already demonstrated their ability at prior airlines. Now we have a lot of guys getting hired as captains and hating the fact that they are being screwed blued and tattooed on reserve. And it will be that way for a while as the red bus is coming to a screeching halt and senior F/O's will be upgrading and pushing these guys farther down the list. Who deserves to be a captain more?
1. The F/O who's been here forever with the TT but not enough PIC?

2. The street guy who has no PIC 121 experience?

3. The street guy with prior 121?

4. The F/O with the time to upgrade.

Everyone knows that 9E has been under a magnifying glass because of our recent problems. Don't lump everyone under the banner that all of us here have our heads up our arses. Though it may seem like that sometimes. I do hope that those guys that are in this situation, will do what they can (legally)to get the time required because a lot of these F/O's will be good captains.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

PFT is the root of all evil

Agreed! I miss running into the stupid PFT dorks while I was at my last job

 

[Rook]

Ohh I thought yall were saying fagship! My mistake. Yall talk so fast over the radio

Apparently you haven't flown out of MEM have ya?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Best post I've read in a long time. Good point Rook...

 

[Rook]

In all seriousness, what are the mins to upgrade? Call me naive, but I find it hard to believe that a dude has to go rent a 152/172 to get his 250 hrs of PIC, and then he can be a captain at a 121 airline.


If true, what was that person flying before getting on at the airline?

Believe it zman. I know guys that interviewed here and were told that due to their low total/multi time, if they could get the required time they'd have a seat in the next class. So these guys went out and got more Duchess/Seminole/S.E. time, and next thing you know, they were in class.

 

[capt_zman]

scary.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I'm surprised the FSDO won't allow the right-seat time. FAR 61.163 says that the 250 PIC can be comprised, in part or whole, of SIC time under the supervision of a PIC. Here's the quote:

§ 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.


The regional that I used to fly for had a form that would allow a PIC to endorse an SIC's time for the purpose of meeting that reg. So it doesn't sound like Pinnacle is trying to get any special consideration, rather they are trying to get the FSDO to correctly intrepret the existing FAR.

 

[Godvek]

I still don't understand how you can log PIC time from the right seat if you are typed. No completition of IOE, no signoff, etc. Unless it is a 91 ferry, 121 regs apply, and since I am sure the GOM states the difference between PIC and SIC, you have to go with that. It is an FAA document and you take the more conservative of the two.

 

[Rook]

scary.

I know man I know. I used to think that if anyone can get through a 121 training environment, then they deserve to be where they are. After 3701 and the MKE accident/incident, I have to believe that that is not always the case. Whether one is flying a Baron single pilot 135, an SF3, Beech 1900, or and MD-11, there needs to be a certain amount of real-world experience before someone can sign their name on that dotted line that yes they do understand that they are responsible for what goes on inside that aircraft. Now with that being said...

I think that airlines that offer direct new-hire programs is a good thing. As long as the candidate demonstrates satisfactory performance in a thorough screening process. It's been going on in Europe and Asia for years without too many problems. It's easy to tell a lot of these guys to go out and get more experience but with the regional airlines hurting for folks, and with interview times going down to 600/100, what kind of experience do you think you're going to see at the interview? I was CFI'ng when I hit 1000/100 and couldn't get XJ to even flip me off when I started sending out my apps. So I went the freight route and was glad I did because it made me aware of what elements are out there that could kill you and kept me grounded that you can't base judgement on someone because of the aircraft they fly. By the same token, if I was lucky enough to have gotten hired by an airline back then, I'd assume the role of F/O without a clue and pay attention to all of the Captains I flew with, pick their brains, and put whatever I learn from the good Captains into my own bag of knowledge(a small bag at that). CFI'ng builds character and patience. Flying FR8 teaches you sphincter/bladder control when the radar is saying "you shoulda stayed in bed" flying T-props is hard,but rewarding and flying jets is a joy as long as you stay ahead of the game. We do the same thing at the regionals that they do at the majors. Our job is to transport pax safely.(for you UPS/Fedex guys just insert 'yourselves') The job of Captain is that much tougher because you have to live with the decision you make whether it is the wrong one or the right one. The company doesn't teach you that. That's something you have to learn on your own. Okay you guys just ignore that violin player and I'll get off the soapbox.

 

[blade230]

Guitar Guy,

Thank you, somebody who actually read the reg. before spouting off nonsense, and turning the wrong facts into yet another absolutely pointless PFT thread.

The FAR's, writtten by the FAA, state what both I and Guitar guy have said. You may hate the 9E PFters, but per the regs. they should be allowed to upgrade.

Good luck 9E. You guys should talk to OKC. I have already spoken to a FAA friend of mine, and he said that making up one's own interpretations of the FAA regs is wrong. He said the regs where NOT to be inter-preted/polated They are NOT guidelines, they are rules.

Safe flying,

 

[Jetjockey21]

I'm sorry but running out to build up that 250 PIC in a C152 or any single-engine does not make them ready to take command of any jet let alone one with 50 pax onboard. You would think that Pinnacle would have learned it's lesson after 3701 what can happen when you turn loose inexperienced crews. I only hope that the FAA does it's job and protect the public. I for one will not fly on them, nor will any of my family or friends.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

I still don't understand how you can log PIC time from the right seat if you are typed. No completition of IOE, no signoff, etc. Unless it is a 91 ferry, 121 regs apply, and since I am sure the GOM states the difference between PIC and SIC, you have to go with that. It is an FAA document and you take the more conservative of the two.

Thing is it's not the regulations that you are flying under that dictate what may be logged as PIC... it's part 61 that defines that, specifically 61.51. Under that reg, you don't have to sign for the jet to be able to log PIC in it. We can debate all day long the legitimacy of logging time where you didn't sign for the aircraft as PIC but the fact is it is legal. And as others have pointed out, the 250 PIC required for the ATP doesn't even have to be all PIC. Still, it is pretty amazing that this is going on. I'm not sure I could even spell "jet" when I had those kind of numbers!

cc

 

[jackbo]

I know you can log 61 PIC from the right seat if typed. Legal to log? Yes. Will majors honor that as PIC time when you apply? Nope.

I'm 99% sure though to take advantage of this reg you need to be typed. You can't log PIC for a plane you are not typed in. That is how the other airlines did it.

BTW, you are not PIC for decision making purposes or release signing purposes. For 121, there is one and only one PIC. However, even on a 121 flight the FO may log PIC when that person is sole manipulator of the controls if they are otherwised qualified (typed).

 

[xjcaptain]

I understand that there are legal ways for SIC's to log this MINIMUM amount of PIC time to become eligable for the ATP. Bottom line, it sure makes me uncomfortable to think of paying passengers in a CRJ sitting behind a PIC who has never really been a PIC. How about hiring more qualified SIC's and this entire discussion goes away.

 

[410dude]

I'll admit that I'm low on the PIC, but I try and absorb as much info from every captain that I fly with so when I do upgrade I will be a safe and competent captain.

 

[Napoleon TNT]

I for one will not fly on them, nor will any of my family or friends.

I second that!

 

[DoinTime]

All the talk about the FAAs interpretation of what constitutes "SIC acting as PIC" is pointless. PCL currently has a company requirement for 250 PIC. This is a company requirement and its not open for interpretation from the FAA. The memos back and forth from the chief pilot stating that they were "trying" to get the exemption from the FAA were B.S. The company could allow this type of equivalency experience just as they do with the reductions in total time for time spent in type. They just used the FAA as a political scape goat for the new time requirements they were imposing.

 

[PCL_128]

All the talk about the FAAs interpretation of what constitutes "SIC acting as PIC" is pointless. PCL currently has a company requirement for 250 PIC. This is a company requirement and its not open for interpretation from the FAA. The memos back and forth from the chief pilot stating that they were "trying" to get the exemption from the FAA were B.S. The company could allow this type of equivalency experience just as they do with the reductions in total time for time spent in type. They just used the FAA as a political scape goat for the new time requirements they were imposing.

I don't know where you got this "information," but it most certainly is not the truth. The company did send a request to the POI to be able to use the exact same rules that every other airline is able to use: count half of your SIC time towards the 250 PIC requirement for the ATP. The POI refused, so now one of our pilots has requested an official interpretation of the regs from the Council General. The DTW LEC has actively been researching this topic for the last few weeks, and there is absolutely zero doubt at this point that SIC time can be used for the PIC requirement. We have received numerous opinions from FSDOs all over the country that agree with the company's request. The NWA POI also agreed that SIC time can be used as PIC for this purpose. The POI in the MEM FSDO is the only person that thinks this is unacceptable. As soon as the Council General hands down an official interpretation, then the POI's opinion is meaningless. He will have to comply with what the official interpretation states.

 

[TinGoose1]

I'm not trying to throw any fire here, but why would 9E want to lower their time requirements when they already have a safety problem? I'd put money on the FAA not giving relief on this reg. I think it's absolutely insane that anyone would pilot a 121 jet with only 250 PIC. If this is the type of thing that your chief pilot is spending time on, he needs to get better priorities. If they let 250 hr PIC's make the decisions on what is safe, then it's just one more reason I won't let my family on board a 9E aircraft. The biggest question would be, what kind of real decisions have these pilots had to make?

 

[Carl_Spackler]

The whole "having only cessna PIC makes a bad jet CA" is total BS.

The truth is that every CA had to get their first command at some point or another. No exceptions.

Take a look at yourself and all of your co-workers at any regional. Most of them had ZERO turbine PIC time prior to making CA.

 

[CLECA]

I'm surprised the FSDO won't allow the right-seat time. FAR 61.163 says that the 250 PIC can be comprised, in part or whole, of SIC time under the supervision of a PIC. Here's the quote:

§ 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

I love it when guys quote Part 61 for a Part 121 example. I dpnt' really care so I am not looking it up but somebody needs to quote a PART 121 reg here in order for it to mean something. In Part 121 only one person can log PIC, and that is the CA who signed for the ac. Period end of story. Int'l crews of four flyin the 777 are all typed, but only the old crusty guy is the one logging it.

IF YOU TRY TO PULL THAT SH!T OUT OF YOUR LOGBOOK AT AN INTERVIEW WITH A MAJOR THEY WILL SHOW YOU THE DOOR IMMEDIATELY AND PASS YOUR NAME AROUND TO EVERYONE ELSE. That's the only inerpretation I need. DON'T DO IT IT'S NOT WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Towelie]

I love it when guys quote Part 61 for a Part 121 example. I dpnt' really care so I am not looking it up but somebody needs to quote a PART 121 reg here in order for it to mean something. In Part 121 only one person can log PIC, and that is the CA who signed for the ac. Period end of story. Int'l crews of four flyin the 777 are all typed, but only the old crusty guy is the one logging it.

IF YOU TRY TO PULL THAT SH!T OUT OF YOUR LOGBOOK AT AN INTERVIEW WITH A MAJOR THEY WILL SHOW YOU THE DOOR IMMEDIATELY AND PASS YOUR NAME AROUND TO EVERYONE ELSE. That's the only inerpretation I need. DON'T DO IT IT'S NOT WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, dumbass. Everything you said we have all noted already.

Even flying under 121, you can log PIC for 61 purposes (i.e. getting the requirements for an ATP) when you are typed and acting as sole manipulator. It was already noted that this can't be counted for an interview.

Getting an ATP comes under 61, not 121. There is only one PIC for each 121 flight, but LOGGING PIC is a different deal. You might not like it, you might not agree with it, but that is the fact, Jack.

So re-read everything, pop a couple of Ritalin, and f***ing relax.

 

[PCL_128]

We're not talking about putting it in the logbook and trying to use it to meet quals for an interview. This is just for the purpose of meeting the requirements of the regs for an ATP. This isn't about trying to "log" PIC time when you're an FO. Nobody is suggesting that.

 

[capt_zman]

with all due respect spackler, it's not total BS. IMO, there is no way a person with 250 hrs PIC (especially in a 152 flying around the patch), should be allowed as a captain in a jet with 50 paying pax behind them. As I'm sure you are aware, there's a whole lot more to being a captain than just flying from A to B.

I don't know what the magical number is, but when you're biggest decision as a PIC is whether or not to do a touch and go, it's almost as bad as "Well, I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night."

 

[jackbo]

My biggest concern would be lack of PIC time period. I don't care if you flew a Cessna or a 747. If you only have 250 hours (or less) as the PIC, making the ULTIMATE decisions for the aircraft operation, then I would be scared to ride on that plane. You need to have command experience in something before you fly an airliner, and it should be at least the minimum if not more. Tow banners, instruct... do something other than ride in the right and watch someone else do it. You can learn from that but nothing is like making the decisions for yourself.

I still can't believe that idiot VP of Safety at Pinnacle said their hiring practices "are among the most rigorous in the industry." Please don't insult my intelligence with that garbage.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

What more is to be gained from another 1000hr pic in the traffic pattern?

My point is that there come a point when your first hour of 121 pic, with no prior 121 pic experience.

I think that an FO who takes an active role in the operation rather than going along for the ride will make a better CA. Also, flying with a good CA/mentor who poses "what would you do if you were the CA" type questions certainly helps.

You are right zman, there is no magical number of cessna PIC that qualifies someone to be a good CA. Hopefully the ones that can't hack it are weeded out in the process.

 

[jackbo]

What more is to be gained from another 1000hr pic in the traffic pattern?

Time is what you make of it. Hopefully each hour you at least try to learn something.

By your logic, we should test ATP's purely by ability and get rid of all minimum times. After all, if you can do it what does it matter if you have 1500 hours of traffic pattern?

I agree that there is no magic number and having total time doesn't make you a good pilot. But please, please don't kid yourself that someone with under 250 PIC who is "actively involved" will be just as good a captain.

We all have to learn sometime but it shouldn't be when you become an airline captain. This is a point that would have served your friends on 3701 quite well.

 

[DoinTime]

I don't know where you got this "information," but it most certainly is not the truth. The company did send a request to the POI to be able to use the exact same rules that every other airline is able to use: count half of your SIC time towards the 250 PIC requirement for the ATP. The POI refused, so now one of our pilots has requested an official interpretation of the regs from the Council General. The DTW LEC has actively been researching this topic for the last few weeks, and there is absolutely zero doubt at this point that SIC time can be used for the PIC requirement. We have received numerous opinions from FSDOs all over the country that agree with the company's request. The NWA POI also agreed that SIC time can be used as PIC for this purpose. The POI in the MEM FSDO is the only person that thinks this is unacceptable. As soon as the Council General hands down an official interpretation, then the POI's opinion is meaningless. He will have to comply with what the official interpretation states.

What your forgetting here is that this has nothing to do with the FAA. 250 hours PIC is a COMPANY REQUIREMENT (coincidentaly it is the same as standard ATP mins). This is no different from the company requiring 3500 hours total time for upgrade when the FAA only requires 1500.

The FAA does not have a dog in this fight and all the POI's in the country cannot overturn what the company mandates its pilots to have before they are eligible for upgrade. Thats why I said that this B.S. about the company pleading for a favorable interpretation from the FAA is crap. This has nothing to do with the FAA....it never did.

 

[Inconceivable]

Cleca--

Why don't you cite the appropriate 121 regulation? Because it doesn't exist. What you refer to is a practice employed by the HR departments of certain airlines. Those departments often allow a sortie credit for mil pilots. I don't think you will find a regulation allowing that either. Which is not to say that you are wrong, for the purposes of interviewing--I think that kind of (legal) agressive logging would be frowned upon, often beause of the fact that it is contrarty to the instructions on the application.

Zman--

In the kids' defense, they still have to have 3500 total, 2500 multi (and whatever time in type reductions, I forget what they were 4 years ago)--if you hire them with 700 total, 180 PIC and after three plus years with you they have 3500 total, 3300 Multi, 3200 Turbine, 2800 Jet in type, 180 PIC (realistic numbers for a Gulfstreamer/PFTer) forcing them to go fly 20-70 hours on their own dime, at FO pay, is pretty harsh considering it flies in the face of previously established policy. Where are they supposed to get the time? They aren't allowed to fly anywhere else, can't afford to rent a Warrior on weekends.

Whatever you have or have not learned in 2800 hours in type will show on your type ride. Will that lack of PIC time/experience make a difference at this stage of the game? It shouldn't. Will some 4-banger time around the pattern add to the 121 Jet Captain skills at this stage of the game? Probably not. Isn't the JOB of the APDs and check airmen to find this out while examining the candidate's training record? Isn't this relieving training of their responsibility and exonerating the hiring practices of the last four years? And again, he with Daddy's checkbook, wins.

Best/Worst Case scenarios:
20 hours x $50/hr for a friends 150 = $1000.
70 hours X $200/hr for a new 172 with all the surcharges here in MSP += $14,000.

So the rich kid will have no problem, while the guy with a wife and kid needs the wife to get a second job so he can buy time to upgrade at some point. This makes the airline safer HOW?

-----
I left just as the 'streamers were staring to come aboard, so I have no experince with them. I would venture that they fill the same bell curve as everyone else: some rock, some suck, most are good. They may have picked up a few muppets. This may be the result of, or simply more obvious because of, their low time at hire. Either way, they have been there for three years--either they can do it or they need to get pink slipped until they can--just like we did with Saab upgrades in 2000 when they went to people with 1-2 years seniority. "It's not show friends, it's show business."

This is just another example of 9E management changing the rules for their benefit (most likely insurance premiums) in the middle of the game--and an MEC Chair who identifies to readily with management's needs as the owner of a family trucking company. Hey Terry, Phil, and whoever else is in between: you hired them, now train them! If they aren't ready after three years, what kind of an airline are you running? (<---said with a straight face)