Pinnacle/MESA

[NEWSOUTH]

It does not have anything to do with PCL. The thread was started by a MSA pilot to distract the attention of and focus on their TA. It was intended to be flame bait from the start. However, it is and was exactly the blood that has been spilled over and over from this pilot group. They just can't leave us alone. Whenever something is not going MSA's way, they always drag us into it. On this thread they have tryed to show some type of relationship between PCL and Mesa. When in reality, this comparison best fits MSA. Scope VS. rates. At least Mesa got 900s on property. Mesaba got nothing except the satifaction of punking out 34 Montana boys who are not good enough to be on MSA's pilot list. The Montana boys were not good enough for ALPA and their not good enough for MSA.

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

Before this Mesaba TA, I was supporting Mesaba 100%.

Now, from some of the attitudes of the Mesaba pilots - like trying to make excuses and justify this horrible TA which loweres the bar for everyone and mostly for us (Pinnacle) who have a contract in 2005... I have lost a lot of respect.

 

[big dog1]

The thread was started by a MSA pilot to distract the attention of and focus on their TA. It was intended to be flame bait from the start

Sorry, Im not a Mesaba pilot.

 

[cl65200]

"Now, from some of the attitudes of the Mesaba pilots - like trying to make excuses and justify this horrible TA which loweres the bar for everyone and mostly for us (Pinnacle) who have a contract in 2005... I have lost a lot of respect." [/B][/QUOTE]


Listen, Each company have to negotiate a contract in their specific enviroment. Mesaba had to negotiate out of their situation. If they happend to vote Yes on their proposed TA that means that they find it best in their interrest to approve it. No other carrier has it as a primary goal to satisfy you or other carriers, but to resolve their own barriers. Mesa had Freedom to fight, Chq had their ( at the time ) ghost Republic, Comair ( and many of the other leading commuters ) had their advantage in negotiating in the good pre sept11 with a large % of their pilots on preferential hiring agreements with other carriers when they went to strike.....

And when Pinnacle goes into negotiation you will do whatever is in the best situation to ( primary ) get the best result for your pilot-group.

 

[DTWFO]

I agree it is not Pinnacle's vote to cast, however, it would be short sighted to say that it will have NO impact on Pinnacle's efforts in a mear year and a half. I still stand behind the Mesaba pilots, but it is getting much harder to do when I keep hearing misinformed pilots trying to drag us into their mess, somehow attempting to blame some of Mesaba's bad luck (Avro rumors/not getting CRJ's) on the Pinnacle pilots. Like we sold them out or something. I'm basing this on things I've heard at work....not from this board. On the contrary, we supported you and were ready to hold the line with you on the strike night, and we still will if that is the way you vote on this TA. So please don't insinuate that Pinnacle bears any resemblance to MESA because it doesn't. Vote the way you want to....but keep in mind who you might be hurting in the process. The evil NWA will say/do anything to divide us.

 

[bogberto]

When the day comes that any other regional gets 40% of its revenue from America West, then you can compare yourself to Mesa.

No other regional flies for America West, so if your management wants you to take a pay cut to be as cheap as us, tell them to shove it. Hold your line.

Everyone knows that HP doesn't pay its pilots. If we at Mesa had Comair, ASA, or Horizon payrates, YV would lose HP. Parker may not be a genious, but he's not going to allow us to make more than his pilots, because it would give them fodder to demand more.

We signed our crappy contract. Get over it. As mentioned we don't have the leadership we need as a pilot group, nor (more importantly) do we have the solidarity that any other pilot group has. WE KNOW. WE'RE WORKING ON IT.

If we f*ck up in 2007, then we deserve to be shot. Right now it's bad enough we have to live with this thing, so hopefully in 2007 you will all be there to help us and support us, because God knows we're going to need it.

Thank you. Please drive through.

 

[Soulfly]

This is off the original topic. Just a point though.

As a Mesa pilot that voted NO I am painfully aware that our contract bites.

Something to remember. If we would have had a spine and held out for a COMAIR contract, J.O. would have still UNDER BID everyone else for any flying he could bid on.

WHY? Mechanics, Rampers and basically the F.A.'s are all non-union. J.O.'s cost are minimal compared to almost every other regional. We are understaffed in every department at corporate.

It's a matter of economics. Like it or not, just the reality of it all.



Peace..

 

[BoilerUP]

As an outside observer with no (immediate) stake in this supposed fight between Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots, it seems to me that NWA has already won the larger battle. They have divided the MSA and PCL pilot groups against each other over this TA.

Pinnacle pilots, and pilots of every other regional, want Mesaba to get the best contract they can possibly get. However, I see those pilots wanting it less for the sake of the Mesaba pilots, but more for maximum barganing power come their own contract negotiations.

I am not privy to the contracts of PCL and MSA, and the new TA outside of what has been posted on this message board. Every airline's contract must be kept in context of the airline financial position and the overall economy. Mesa got a crappy contract, but killed Freedom. CHQ got a decent contract but killed Republic. Both contracts were improvements on previous contracts, while Comair negotiated their contract during one of the best economic times in history.

Mesaba pilots, please vote your conscience. Do what you feel is best for you, but remember you are not the only group affected by a new contract. Everybody else, support the MSA group and when your turn comes around, take it upon yourselves to raise the bar.

THE WHIPSAW MUST STOP!

 

[XJXJXJ]

Here are some FACTS regarding the Mesaba T/A. Not even close to a Mesa or Pinnacle style contract! The Mesaba T/A undercut NO ONE and held the bar up high. Here are some details so judge for your self Folks.

Pay

Yes this is not what we were aiming for. It is however an increase (5.1% to 10.6% for CAs and 13.4% to 23.9% for FOs). We tried to split the FO rates but simply did not have the leverage to do so. We did increase what was a low combined 34 seat turboprop rate for all FOs to a middle 50 seat Turbo Jet rate. Is it enough, that is for our membership to decide.

We did get an average of 3% annual increases (2% DOS +1, 2% DOS +2, 4% DOS +3, 4% DOS+4). This is 1.2% higher than the industry average. This 3% average increase allows us to move up through the pack toward the top throughout our contract, not fall behind (please refer to the pay charts in the T.A. Powerpoint Presentation).

As for the Pinnacle piece, yes it is true, for 8 months Pinnacle’s 50 seat rate is around 1% higher than our rate, in an airplane we do not fly. And in 2005 we are around 2% higher, 2006 5% higher, etc. One thing you need to look at is the overall contract. With the difference in our work rules alone (block or better, trip guarantee, and min day) we are paid 8%-10% higher than Pinnacle.

Min Day & Rigs

Yes we did not get rigs. We tried for look forward and look back rigs and we could not get them. Looking at our peers who have rigs, look back rigs are the most common. When we costed the rigs with our schedules on a look back basis the gain us less than 0.5% and in many cases they added no money to a pilot’s paycheck. We did achieve a look forward minimum day of 4:00. When we costed this, it added 2%-3% to a pilot’s W-2 on a scheduled line only; it is hard to predict a percentage increase based on integration and premium pay/junior manning, as it will vary for each pilot, but it could net a large increase based on a 6 hour min day for premium pay.

Retirement

Our retirement package is far from a failure. We costed hundreds of combinations of front loading and end loading the plans. When comparing other Retirement Plans that front load, we saw they did not achieve a higher value in the end, because the pay rates that F.O.’s and junior Captains are paid throughout the industry. Compounding on 3% of $30k for 30 years is not nearly as valuable as compounding 12.5% of $90k for 10 years. By setting up the retirement plan, making larger enhancements to the later years cost less and got us much more money for retirement. With a modest 5% average market return for 30 years our plan will allow you to retire at age 60 with 55% of our final average earning every year for the rest of our lives. This puts us at the top of our peer group, above ARW, ACO, PCL, EGL only being exceeded by Comair by 3%.

Retro Pay

This is retro pay. It is not 100% retro pay, but it is on an average 82% retro pay. We went 19 months past our amendable date. If you total the raises you missed to get us to the rates in our TA, that would be 100% retro pay. We were not able to achieve 100%, but we did get close (82.4%-91.3%).

Scheduling Provisions

We made leaps in the scheduling section. The consolidation of CDOs into pure CDO lines, should reduce CDOs and increase the days off for regular line holders. We made reserve lines biddable in the bid package allowing a reserve pilot the ability to use his seniority to enhance his quality of life. We improved out trip displacement provision and improved our inviolate days. In addition, there is now language that forces the Company to post all available open time until 48 hours prior to the trip and there is also a provision that allows a pilot that is Junior Assigned to opt to have the trip remain in open time until 6 hours prior to the trip.

Impact on the industry

How does this TA impact the industry? I have had my nose in every contract for the last 3 years. I know all of them well enough to know this TA as an overall package keeps us in the top quarter of the pack. When you look at not just the wages but the work rules, retirement, job security, training and testing and every other provision we have, we are not under cutting anyone. In fact we stopped a real threat to every pilot contract out there, Big Sky.

Big Sky’s contract is 20% to 30% lower than ours. They were bidding on every bit of flying they could get there hands on. Next time you bump into a Comair pilot ask them who they would be more concerned about; Mesaba with our TA that is not as high as theirs, but with start up costs are more expensive to do Delta flying, or Big Sky who’s contract is cheap enough to absorb the start up costs and still undercut every regional airline in the US. Our scope stopped Big Sky from under cutting virtually every airline in the industry. We protected our jobs and others. I think the TA’s Job Security provisions are the best in the regional industry. We captured our holding company and bound them to our contract. If they want to start up another company and grow outside the NWA family, they have to do it with our pilots under the terms of our contract. Not having scope in our last contracted costed our pilots LOA 15, we will never again be put in that position.

This TA has enhancement in every area. Are the enhancements enough? That’s for the 844 pilots at Mesaba to decide. I am not trying to sell this TA to anyone. All I ask is you get the facts and ignore the rumors you hear in the crew rooms. If you have any questions about the TA call one of your reps, MEC officers or call me. If after you hear the facts you still want to vote no, I’ll dial the phone for you to cast your vote, because it is important the each and every pilot vote (Yes or No) on this T.A.

 

[justmeinmsp]

Does the 4 hour min. day work as a calander day? If so, that could really work well with the CDO lines. Example, 1 CDO=8 hours. 10 CDO trips per month and your done.

 

[dondk]

BE1900 and DHC-8 upgrades are less then 6 months if you have the time (IE: ATP and competitive times are around 2000 hrs)

ERJ currently 2-2.5 yrs
CRJ currently a tad bit less than 4 years, but this is based on the fact that Mesa didn't hire for well over 2 years... Now we're taking 80+ a month so anticipated upgrade in the ERJ is 1.5 and CRJ as little as 2....

I worked for Mesa 3 1/2 years ago.. been at Pinnacle for 2 1/2 now...

This is what I know.. Most of my Mesa Buddies (Air Midwest) are still Captains in the 1900.. They have been with Mesa for just shy of 3 1/2 years.. NONE of them are able to upgrade in to ANY jet as the jet upgrade was frozen.. They are all paid Jet Captain rates and are looking to upgrade sometime this year. So where the 2-2 1/2 year is coming from is beyond me... Only one in the high 500's in seniority is going and most of my classmates are in the low 700's...

When I was hired Mesa also pumped a lot of low timers into the ERJ in the Summer of '00.. all of them should have the time to upgrade. So unless Mesa has a ton or ERJ's laying around, I doubt you will see the jet get down below 2 years way too many people in line for the upgrade..

As for the 1900 and DHC-8.. yep, they are upgrading fast an furious because just about every 1900 and DHC-8 captain who have been stuck in the left seat for the past 2-3 years is going to the jet. Once this happens you will see the 1900 and DHC-8 climb again.

Now for Pinnacle.. My number is just about there for upgrade.. it will be just over 2 1/2 years and that counts a furlough into the equation.


Going to either company (mesa or Pinnacle) and asumming to upgrade in a jet in less than 3 years is just crazy.. it is not going to happen.. Soon at Pinnacle you will see the upgrades move into the 4 and 5 year mark as we are slowly running out of the need for captains.. maybe another 150 more to go then that should be it unless more jets appear on the property.

Mesa.. don't lose sight that for most of 00 and 01 they were hiring ton's of MAPD and San Juaner's into the right seat.. 3 years later they all have the time to upgrade and now the seniority.

 

[ERJpusher]

... while Comair negotiated their contract during one of the best economic times in history....

...THE WHIPSAW MUST STOP!...

I, like many others, am envious at times of Comair's payrates. However, poeple speak of Comair as if they are the best thing since sliced bread. In reality, Comair is solely responsible for the"whipsawing" that has become so prevalent in the regional airlines.

Why did all the new jets go to Pinnacle instead of Mesaba? Why didn't Northwest go through with their proposed acquisition of Mesaba? Why did they feel the need for healthy competition between their own regionals? Because of Comair, directly or indirectly.

In 2000, Northwest was set to purchase nearly all of Mesaba. NWA was watching the other majors make tons of money off their regionals. Just before they pulled the trigger on the purchase, Comair goes on strike. Several weeks and $200 million in losses later, Delta settles with Comair for the most lucrative regional contract ever.

Northwest and all other major airlines see what just happened to Delta. DAL management was just held hostage by their own regional carrier. This was an unprecedented event in airline history.

Overnight, whole-ownership of a regional went from being a great asset to a huge liability. Northwest pulls its offer to buy Mesaba, who is just entering contract negotiations, and begins plans to develop and expand Pinnacle. All new aircraft go to Pinnacle. Why? To avoid a future problems with Mesaba in case negotiations went all the way to a strike. This way, there is less impact on NWA operations and much less leverage that Mesaba has to work with. Did NWA necessarily want to do this? No--- they were forced to in order to avoid another DAL/COmair ordeal.

I have great respect for Comair, its people, and definitely its contract. Their contract is the standard by which we all measure our own. The intentions of this post is NOT to flame anyone, but to share fact that can be substantiated by any management of any airline.

And to you Pinnacle people taking shots at Mesaba--- I hope your intentions are honorable. I feel that many of you are being selfish regarding your own contract negotiations coming in 2005. I seriously doubt that you actually have any empathy toward Mesaba in their current problems--- most notably, dealing with PINNACLE's acquisition of all new NWA flying.

I don't recall Pinnacle declining any growth for the sake of their Mesaba "brothers."

 

[T-Gates]

I don't recall Pinnacle declining any growth for the sake of their Mesaba "brothers."

Well considering that NWA Corp owned 100% of us up until a few months ago, I don't really think anyone at Pinnacle had ANY autority to decline new NWA flying.... Thats kinda a cheapshot....

 

[DoinTime]

ERJPusher...Your post was seriously misguided and unfactual. I would recomend you do some homework before you settle back in that easy chair and come up with your version of "how it all got started."

 

[JJJ]

I don't recall Pinnacle declining any growth for the sake of their Mesaba "brothers."

It may suprise you, but I actually advise Richard Anderson on issues concering CRJ flying under the NWA brand ie allocation, routes, etc.

Obviously Pinnacle pilots don't have a say in any of these isues. If NWA allocates more CRJ's to us, we can't say "no thanks, give them to Mesba"

The only growth that we would "decline" or refuse would be struck work