Pinnacle/MESA

[blade230]

Hey Otto,

Yea, I'll be the first to admit, my spelling sucks, but I did not major in English, I majored in science. I am far, far, from being the most ignorant person on this board. (though I can be pretty ignorant sometimes, my soon to be wife can back this up) Not that your opinion maters to me that much.

With regards to gulfstream versus mesa. gulfstream gives more than just 9 days off to pilots. don't know if you can read or not, but mesa only gives 9 days off to reserves. please find anyone, let alone gulfstream who screws pilots IN TERMS of schedules like that. also gulfstream pays their "permanent" hires pay rates that are close to on par with similar equipment type operators. why don't you do a little homework on the crj 700/900 payrates at mesa, and tell me if mesa does the same. hint... NOWHERE close to anybody who operates similar equipment. ex. ASA, COMAIR, HORIZON

why don't you actually read both contracts, and then give FACTS on how mesa is better than ANYBODY, let alone gulfpay.
If you do, then I will concede to you that I am ignorant in the matter.

Lets TRY to keep the PFT thing outa this, because what the he!L do you think the mesa PACE thing is?

p.s. the above relates to gulfstream airlines, not the academy and the 250 hr program pilots.

 

[blade230]

"bye the way"

why don't we TRY to avoid bashing each other, and actually debate this intelligently. (If possible), since we are all NON- ignorant, mature, rational, logical people. Including myself of coarse.

 

[Otto Coarsen]

Believe me I'm hardly saying that Mesa is great.. It has it's good points and PLENTY of bad points, but overall it's not too much different then many other places..

The thing that set me off is this: you really can't compare Mesa to gulfstream in ANY way... You say Gulfstream Airlines not Gulfstream Academy and then contradict yourself by saying mesa is just as bad as far as PFT... Gulfstream is truely PFT.. The FOs PAY money for 250 hrs of flight time in a 1900... NOT even training time, but actually time generating revenue for this carrier... They are then shown the door... Mesa Pilot Development is an accredited college that offers degrees as well as FULL pilot training. It is supposedly an extremely challenging course that has a very high washout rate... After they graduate, they get an interview and should they get offered a job, it's an actual JOB not an 250 hour whoresession... Having met and trained with many San Juaners, I can tell you first hand that they are knowelageble, competant pilots with great attitudes... After they build experience at Mesa as FOs they really become great, well rounded airline pilots...

The second thing I will disagree STRONGLY about is mesa being a SCAB airline... First of all once again you are an example of someone who does not understand the deffination of scab.... A Scab is someone who crosses a picket line... PERIOD... Last time I checked there wasn't a strike lately @ Mesa... If you are referring to FREEDUMB A$$HOLEs who selfishly and knowingly screwed Mesa pilots out of negociating power, then I'll agree and say that they are A$$holes, but c'mon man?? Are CAL pilots all AHOLES? How about NWA, or USAir? these airlines have some REAL scabs working for them... Does that make the rest of the pilot group D|ckheads? I think not.....

Another one of your Assinine comments was "at least they (Gulfstream) are union". Real intelligent comment... I guess you must also consider Skywest pilots (Whom are non-union) inferior to gulfstream as well.... Thats not even mentioning the fact that Mesa IS union... ALPA to be exact....

So you want to stage a mature debate on the issue? Before you send me off wasting my night away downloading a Gulfstream pilot contract, please present me with better arguments then the one you have presented... Maybe it was flamebait, but to me you just look the same as all the other bandwagon mesabashers out there.. Misinformed and uneducated pushing your hypocritical rhetoric to the other aspiring pilots out there... I mean Jeez buddy, let's encourage young newbies to go to Gulfstream instead of an actual airline....

 

[Otto Coarsen]

"With regards to gulfstream versus mesa. gulfstream gives more than just 9 days off to pilots. don't know if you can read or not, but mesa only gives 9 days off to reserves. please find anyone, let alone gulfstream who screws pilots IN TERMS of schedules like that."

Yes the 9 day reserve line day off guarantee bites... I agree.. I work here.. But ALL regional pay sucks and working is the only way we make money.. AND the only way we move on!

Do you even understand reserve? not only are there a SMALL number of pilots on reserve, but anyone who is will eventually be able to hold a better line.. With the rate of expantion a VERY short time.

also gulfstream pays their "permanent" hires pay rates that are close to on par with similar equipment type operators.

their permanent hires? "other than THAT Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" C'mon dude.... Their FO's PAY to be there... Nough said about their philosophy..

why don't you do a little homework on the crj 700/900 payrates at mesa, and tell me if mesa does the same. hint... NOWHERE close to anybody who operates similar equipment. ex. ASA, COMAIR, HORIZON

NO one else flies the 900 first of all....... Secondly, sad but true these payrates suck, and the reasons for this is that pilot group got screwed on this matter..

Do YOUR homework and see that Mesa has the fastest upgrade out there on the jets and the props (especially the props) and we all know that PIC is what counts... A Mesa newhire will be on to better things Way faster then anywhere else... 2nd year southwest pay is alot more then equivelant CRJ Capt pay anywhere....

why don't you actually read both contracts, and then give FACTS on how mesa is better than ANYBODY, let alone gulfpay.
If you do, then I will concede to you that I am ignorant in the matter.

I'd rather Jab my eyes out with red hot pokers then try and figure out the wording on a pilot contract...

Lets TRY to keep the PFT thing outa this, because what the he!L do you think the mesa PACE thing is?

Previously explained

p.s. the above relates to gulfstream airlines, not the academy and the 250 hr program pilots.

Explain the difference?

 

[blade230]

Well Otto you made some points.

And Yes, I know what reserve is like, I have been on it.

I have heard the rumours of the 6-12 month upgrade on the B1900 at mesa, but I heard the CRJ was at 4 years. At Pinnacle the upgrade is at 2 years, for now. I know some who have upgraded in 12 months. That IS faster.

With regards to gulfstream. They have guys that are on a union seniority list who I believe start at around 16 an hour. They are covered by a union. The 250 hour academy guys only make 8-11 an hour, and are NOT covered by any contract.

That is the difference.

mesa PACE guys pay for their interview/job.

I agree with you that contract language is cr@p. They need to write contracts in simple to understand e.n.g.l.i.s.h.

p.s. I just used someone elses computer, and almost posted under their screen name Better watch out for that in the future. Could get some people in trouble

 

[Otto Coarsen]

BE1900 and DHC-8 upgrades are less then 6 months if you have the time (IE: ATP and competitive times are around 2000 hrs)

ERJ currently 2-2.5 yrs
CRJ currently a tad bit less than 4 years, but this is based on the fact that Mesa didn't hire for well over 2 years... Now we're taking 80+ a month so anticipated upgrade in the ERJ is 1.5 and CRJ as little as 2....

But on the flip side.... You never can say for sure.... For all I know our favorite "egomaniac" at the helm may buy another carrier or 6 and merge seniority lists or something.. This could be bad....

Bottom line is Mesa pilots are "generally speaking" a soild group of people... Nice folks and competant pilots..... Our leadership is obviously lacking in many aspects both through our MEC and Management... But this is no reason to fault a pilot group...

He|| I didn't even work here when they voted in the TA, but I still get harassed from time to time by people who have no clue of the facts...

 

[aspire]

Just my two cents but thought I'd chime in on this particularly cold and quiet night.

I think the big difference, the one WE all care about, is that when our respective airline's contract comes up for negotiation the first thing out of management's mouth is, "in order to be competitive we have to pay you what pilots @ MESA make otherwise our costs are higher etc,etc. and they will under bid us for our flying...etc.etc."

Never once have I ever heard of them asking us to compare our compensation to any 19 seat operator, Gulfstream or otherwise.

In other words, I don't care too much what guys at Great Lakes, Gulfstream, Island Air, etc. make and at the same time I don't pay a whole lot of attention to contracts for guys pulling down 200,000+ for driving a 76. Not that I don't sit at home a dream of the latter. That's what I think is the difference.

My .02 cents
aspire

 

[Otto Coarsen]

With regards to gulfstream. They have guys that are on a union seniority list who I believe start at around 16 an hour. They are covered by a union. The 250 hour academy guys only make 8-11 an hour, and are NOT covered by any contract.

That is the difference.

mesa PACE guys pay for their interview/job.


Whoa there big fella.... $16.00 an hour? Mesa (Airmidwest pilots) flying the 1900 make over 18.00/hr their 1st year... MOST of them have the time and are upgrading to well over 30.00 within the year... Most of the 300 Hr San Juaners Start @ 21.00 in one of the jets and are doing a little better then 30 as FOs within 3...

You cannot possibly be arguing this point...

As for the PACE program, I just looked it up.... I never had heard of that before.... After reading the details I will agree, that's pretty cheesy indeed... Happily I'll tell you I have yet to meet someone who has participated (or at least admits to have participated) in this program...

Even so, Paying for BE-58 baron time, ground instruction, interview prep, and sim time and being guaranteed an INTERVIEW for a real job is hardly as unacceptable as PAYING TO WORK AS AN FO FOR 250 hours! Please....

By the way I'll add Flightsafety used to have this exact same type of thing with ASA just before 9/11... I personally know someone who paid 12000 for their job at ASA... And everyone rides ASA like their the hot shisnit...

 

[Otto Coarsen]

when our respective airline's contract comes up for negotiation the first thing out of management's mouth is, "in order to be competitive we have to pay you what pilots @ MESA make otherwise our costs are higher etc,etc. and they will under bid us for our flying...etc.etc."

#1) I respect you opinion and concers for bettering our industry..

But let me ask you this:
Has this happened? Has you management told you this?

You have to remember that this contract was negociated in a CRAP economy.... It's slowly getting better, but Heck even Mesaba's new TA (if it passes) sucks and is only slightly better then ours if at all...


Another point..... If Mesa pilots HAD given up their jobs for the sake of your (so called) future negociating power, do you really think it would have helped? Or would it have marked the beginning of Other airlines spawning non-union spinoffs to steal union flying at cheaper rates? Believe me there are kids everywhere that will fly jets for next to nothing... Hell I remember threads trying to politely convince starving CFI's on this board not to go to FREEDUMB... I remember Duane Worth traveling to San Juan College to educate these kids about the issue... Not only did our contract remove FREEDUMB from the regional world, but it prevented this from ever happening again at Mesa... That is worth alot....

 

[DTWFO]

What does any of this have to do with Pinnacle????

 

[NEWSOUTH]

It does not have anything to do with PCL. The thread was started by a MSA pilot to distract the attention of and focus on their TA. It was intended to be flame bait from the start. However, it is and was exactly the blood that has been spilled over and over from this pilot group. They just can't leave us alone. Whenever something is not going MSA's way, they always drag us into it. On this thread they have tryed to show some type of relationship between PCL and Mesa. When in reality, this comparison best fits MSA. Scope VS. rates. At least Mesa got 900s on property. Mesaba got nothing except the satifaction of punking out 34 Montana boys who are not good enough to be on MSA's pilot list. The Montana boys were not good enough for ALPA and their not good enough for MSA.

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

Before this Mesaba TA, I was supporting Mesaba 100%.

Now, from some of the attitudes of the Mesaba pilots - like trying to make excuses and justify this horrible TA which loweres the bar for everyone and mostly for us (Pinnacle) who have a contract in 2005... I have lost a lot of respect.

 

[big dog1]

The thread was started by a MSA pilot to distract the attention of and focus on their TA. It was intended to be flame bait from the start

Sorry, Im not a Mesaba pilot.

 

[cl65200]

"Now, from some of the attitudes of the Mesaba pilots - like trying to make excuses and justify this horrible TA which loweres the bar for everyone and mostly for us (Pinnacle) who have a contract in 2005... I have lost a lot of respect." [/B][/QUOTE]


Listen, Each company have to negotiate a contract in their specific enviroment. Mesaba had to negotiate out of their situation. If they happend to vote Yes on their proposed TA that means that they find it best in their interrest to approve it. No other carrier has it as a primary goal to satisfy you or other carriers, but to resolve their own barriers. Mesa had Freedom to fight, Chq had their ( at the time ) ghost Republic, Comair ( and many of the other leading commuters ) had their advantage in negotiating in the good pre sept11 with a large % of their pilots on preferential hiring agreements with other carriers when they went to strike.....

And when Pinnacle goes into negotiation you will do whatever is in the best situation to ( primary ) get the best result for your pilot-group.

 

[DTWFO]

I agree it is not Pinnacle's vote to cast, however, it would be short sighted to say that it will have NO impact on Pinnacle's efforts in a mear year and a half. I still stand behind the Mesaba pilots, but it is getting much harder to do when I keep hearing misinformed pilots trying to drag us into their mess, somehow attempting to blame some of Mesaba's bad luck (Avro rumors/not getting CRJ's) on the Pinnacle pilots. Like we sold them out or something. I'm basing this on things I've heard at work....not from this board. On the contrary, we supported you and were ready to hold the line with you on the strike night, and we still will if that is the way you vote on this TA. So please don't insinuate that Pinnacle bears any resemblance to MESA because it doesn't. Vote the way you want to....but keep in mind who you might be hurting in the process. The evil NWA will say/do anything to divide us.

 

[bogberto]

When the day comes that any other regional gets 40% of its revenue from America West, then you can compare yourself to Mesa.

No other regional flies for America West, so if your management wants you to take a pay cut to be as cheap as us, tell them to shove it. Hold your line.

Everyone knows that HP doesn't pay its pilots. If we at Mesa had Comair, ASA, or Horizon payrates, YV would lose HP. Parker may not be a genious, but he's not going to allow us to make more than his pilots, because it would give them fodder to demand more.

We signed our crappy contract. Get over it. As mentioned we don't have the leadership we need as a pilot group, nor (more importantly) do we have the solidarity that any other pilot group has. WE KNOW. WE'RE WORKING ON IT.

If we f*ck up in 2007, then we deserve to be shot. Right now it's bad enough we have to live with this thing, so hopefully in 2007 you will all be there to help us and support us, because God knows we're going to need it.

Thank you. Please drive through.

 

[Soulfly]

This is off the original topic. Just a point though.

As a Mesa pilot that voted NO I am painfully aware that our contract bites.

Something to remember. If we would have had a spine and held out for a COMAIR contract, J.O. would have still UNDER BID everyone else for any flying he could bid on.

WHY? Mechanics, Rampers and basically the F.A.'s are all non-union. J.O.'s cost are minimal compared to almost every other regional. We are understaffed in every department at corporate.

It's a matter of economics. Like it or not, just the reality of it all.



Peace..

 

[BoilerUP]

As an outside observer with no (immediate) stake in this supposed fight between Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots, it seems to me that NWA has already won the larger battle. They have divided the MSA and PCL pilot groups against each other over this TA.

Pinnacle pilots, and pilots of every other regional, want Mesaba to get the best contract they can possibly get. However, I see those pilots wanting it less for the sake of the Mesaba pilots, but more for maximum barganing power come their own contract negotiations.

I am not privy to the contracts of PCL and MSA, and the new TA outside of what has been posted on this message board. Every airline's contract must be kept in context of the airline financial position and the overall economy. Mesa got a crappy contract, but killed Freedom. CHQ got a decent contract but killed Republic. Both contracts were improvements on previous contracts, while Comair negotiated their contract during one of the best economic times in history.

Mesaba pilots, please vote your conscience. Do what you feel is best for you, but remember you are not the only group affected by a new contract. Everybody else, support the MSA group and when your turn comes around, take it upon yourselves to raise the bar.

THE WHIPSAW MUST STOP!

 

[XJXJXJ]

Here are some FACTS regarding the Mesaba T/A. Not even close to a Mesa or Pinnacle style contract! The Mesaba T/A undercut NO ONE and held the bar up high. Here are some details so judge for your self Folks.

Pay

Yes this is not what we were aiming for. It is however an increase (5.1% to 10.6% for CAs and 13.4% to 23.9% for FOs). We tried to split the FO rates but simply did not have the leverage to do so. We did increase what was a low combined 34 seat turboprop rate for all FOs to a middle 50 seat Turbo Jet rate. Is it enough, that is for our membership to decide.

We did get an average of 3% annual increases (2% DOS +1, 2% DOS +2, 4% DOS +3, 4% DOS+4). This is 1.2% higher than the industry average. This 3% average increase allows us to move up through the pack toward the top throughout our contract, not fall behind (please refer to the pay charts in the T.A. Powerpoint Presentation).

As for the Pinnacle piece, yes it is true, for 8 months Pinnacle’s 50 seat rate is around 1% higher than our rate, in an airplane we do not fly. And in 2005 we are around 2% higher, 2006 5% higher, etc. One thing you need to look at is the overall contract. With the difference in our work rules alone (block or better, trip guarantee, and min day) we are paid 8%-10% higher than Pinnacle.

Min Day & Rigs

Yes we did not get rigs. We tried for look forward and look back rigs and we could not get them. Looking at our peers who have rigs, look back rigs are the most common. When we costed the rigs with our schedules on a look back basis the gain us less than 0.5% and in many cases they added no money to a pilot’s paycheck. We did achieve a look forward minimum day of 4:00. When we costed this, it added 2%-3% to a pilot’s W-2 on a scheduled line only; it is hard to predict a percentage increase based on integration and premium pay/junior manning, as it will vary for each pilot, but it could net a large increase based on a 6 hour min day for premium pay.

Retirement

Our retirement package is far from a failure. We costed hundreds of combinations of front loading and end loading the plans. When comparing other Retirement Plans that front load, we saw they did not achieve a higher value in the end, because the pay rates that F.O.’s and junior Captains are paid throughout the industry. Compounding on 3% of $30k for 30 years is not nearly as valuable as compounding 12.5% of $90k for 10 years. By setting up the retirement plan, making larger enhancements to the later years cost less and got us much more money for retirement. With a modest 5% average market return for 30 years our plan will allow you to retire at age 60 with 55% of our final average earning every year for the rest of our lives. This puts us at the top of our peer group, above ARW, ACO, PCL, EGL only being exceeded by Comair by 3%.

Retro Pay

This is retro pay. It is not 100% retro pay, but it is on an average 82% retro pay. We went 19 months past our amendable date. If you total the raises you missed to get us to the rates in our TA, that would be 100% retro pay. We were not able to achieve 100%, but we did get close (82.4%-91.3%).

Scheduling Provisions

We made leaps in the scheduling section. The consolidation of CDOs into pure CDO lines, should reduce CDOs and increase the days off for regular line holders. We made reserve lines biddable in the bid package allowing a reserve pilot the ability to use his seniority to enhance his quality of life. We improved out trip displacement provision and improved our inviolate days. In addition, there is now language that forces the Company to post all available open time until 48 hours prior to the trip and there is also a provision that allows a pilot that is Junior Assigned to opt to have the trip remain in open time until 6 hours prior to the trip.

Impact on the industry

How does this TA impact the industry? I have had my nose in every contract for the last 3 years. I know all of them well enough to know this TA as an overall package keeps us in the top quarter of the pack. When you look at not just the wages but the work rules, retirement, job security, training and testing and every other provision we have, we are not under cutting anyone. In fact we stopped a real threat to every pilot contract out there, Big Sky.

Big Sky’s contract is 20% to 30% lower than ours. They were bidding on every bit of flying they could get there hands on. Next time you bump into a Comair pilot ask them who they would be more concerned about; Mesaba with our TA that is not as high as theirs, but with start up costs are more expensive to do Delta flying, or Big Sky who’s contract is cheap enough to absorb the start up costs and still undercut every regional airline in the US. Our scope stopped Big Sky from under cutting virtually every airline in the industry. We protected our jobs and others. I think the TA’s Job Security provisions are the best in the regional industry. We captured our holding company and bound them to our contract. If they want to start up another company and grow outside the NWA family, they have to do it with our pilots under the terms of our contract. Not having scope in our last contracted costed our pilots LOA 15, we will never again be put in that position.

This TA has enhancement in every area. Are the enhancements enough? That’s for the 844 pilots at Mesaba to decide. I am not trying to sell this TA to anyone. All I ask is you get the facts and ignore the rumors you hear in the crew rooms. If you have any questions about the TA call one of your reps, MEC officers or call me. If after you hear the facts you still want to vote no, I’ll dial the phone for you to cast your vote, because it is important the each and every pilot vote (Yes or No) on this T.A.

 

[justmeinmsp]

Does the 4 hour min. day work as a calander day? If so, that could really work well with the CDO lines. Example, 1 CDO=8 hours. 10 CDO trips per month and your done.