Pinnacle/MESA

[blade230]

Hey Otto,

Yea, I'll be the first to admit, my spelling sucks, but I did not major in English, I majored in science. I am far, far, from being the most ignorant person on this board. (though I can be pretty ignorant sometimes, my soon to be wife can back this up) Not that your opinion maters to me that much.

With regards to gulfstream versus mesa. gulfstream gives more than just 9 days off to pilots. don't know if you can read or not, but mesa only gives 9 days off to reserves. please find anyone, let alone gulfstream who screws pilots IN TERMS of schedules like that. also gulfstream pays their "permanent" hires pay rates that are close to on par with similar equipment type operators. why don't you do a little homework on the crj 700/900 payrates at mesa, and tell me if mesa does the same. hint... NOWHERE close to anybody who operates similar equipment. ex. ASA, COMAIR, HORIZON

why don't you actually read both contracts, and then give FACTS on how mesa is better than ANYBODY, let alone gulfpay.
If you do, then I will concede to you that I am ignorant in the matter.

Lets TRY to keep the PFT thing outa this, because what the he!L do you think the mesa PACE thing is?

p.s. the above relates to gulfstream airlines, not the academy and the 250 hr program pilots.

 

[blade230]

"bye the way"

why don't we TRY to avoid bashing each other, and actually debate this intelligently. (If possible), since we are all NON- ignorant, mature, rational, logical people. Including myself of coarse.

 

[Otto Coarsen]

Believe me I'm hardly saying that Mesa is great.. It has it's good points and PLENTY of bad points, but overall it's not too much different then many other places..

The thing that set me off is this: you really can't compare Mesa to gulfstream in ANY way... You say Gulfstream Airlines not Gulfstream Academy and then contradict yourself by saying mesa is just as bad as far as PFT... Gulfstream is truely PFT.. The FOs PAY money for 250 hrs of flight time in a 1900... NOT even training time, but actually time generating revenue for this carrier... They are then shown the door... Mesa Pilot Development is an accredited college that offers degrees as well as FULL pilot training. It is supposedly an extremely challenging course that has a very high washout rate... After they graduate, they get an interview and should they get offered a job, it's an actual JOB not an 250 hour whoresession... Having met and trained with many San Juaners, I can tell you first hand that they are knowelageble, competant pilots with great attitudes... After they build experience at Mesa as FOs they really become great, well rounded airline pilots...

The second thing I will disagree STRONGLY about is mesa being a SCAB airline... First of all once again you are an example of someone who does not understand the deffination of scab.... A Scab is someone who crosses a picket line... PERIOD... Last time I checked there wasn't a strike lately @ Mesa... If you are referring to FREEDUMB A$$HOLEs who selfishly and knowingly screwed Mesa pilots out of negociating power, then I'll agree and say that they are A$$holes, but c'mon man?? Are CAL pilots all AHOLES? How about NWA, or USAir? these airlines have some REAL scabs working for them... Does that make the rest of the pilot group D|ckheads? I think not.....

Another one of your Assinine comments was "at least they (Gulfstream) are union". Real intelligent comment... I guess you must also consider Skywest pilots (Whom are non-union) inferior to gulfstream as well.... Thats not even mentioning the fact that Mesa IS union... ALPA to be exact....

So you want to stage a mature debate on the issue? Before you send me off wasting my night away downloading a Gulfstream pilot contract, please present me with better arguments then the one you have presented... Maybe it was flamebait, but to me you just look the same as all the other bandwagon mesabashers out there.. Misinformed and uneducated pushing your hypocritical rhetoric to the other aspiring pilots out there... I mean Jeez buddy, let's encourage young newbies to go to Gulfstream instead of an actual airline....

 

[Otto Coarsen]

"With regards to gulfstream versus mesa. gulfstream gives more than just 9 days off to pilots. don't know if you can read or not, but mesa only gives 9 days off to reserves. please find anyone, let alone gulfstream who screws pilots IN TERMS of schedules like that."

Yes the 9 day reserve line day off guarantee bites... I agree.. I work here.. But ALL regional pay sucks and working is the only way we make money.. AND the only way we move on!

Do you even understand reserve? not only are there a SMALL number of pilots on reserve, but anyone who is will eventually be able to hold a better line.. With the rate of expantion a VERY short time.

also gulfstream pays their "permanent" hires pay rates that are close to on par with similar equipment type operators.

their permanent hires? "other than THAT Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" C'mon dude.... Their FO's PAY to be there... Nough said about their philosophy..

why don't you do a little homework on the crj 700/900 payrates at mesa, and tell me if mesa does the same. hint... NOWHERE close to anybody who operates similar equipment. ex. ASA, COMAIR, HORIZON

NO one else flies the 900 first of all....... Secondly, sad but true these payrates suck, and the reasons for this is that pilot group got screwed on this matter..

Do YOUR homework and see that Mesa has the fastest upgrade out there on the jets and the props (especially the props) and we all know that PIC is what counts... A Mesa newhire will be on to better things Way faster then anywhere else... 2nd year southwest pay is alot more then equivelant CRJ Capt pay anywhere....

why don't you actually read both contracts, and then give FACTS on how mesa is better than ANYBODY, let alone gulfpay.
If you do, then I will concede to you that I am ignorant in the matter.

I'd rather Jab my eyes out with red hot pokers then try and figure out the wording on a pilot contract...

Lets TRY to keep the PFT thing outa this, because what the he!L do you think the mesa PACE thing is?

Previously explained

p.s. the above relates to gulfstream airlines, not the academy and the 250 hr program pilots.

Explain the difference?

 

[blade230]

Well Otto you made some points.

And Yes, I know what reserve is like, I have been on it.

I have heard the rumours of the 6-12 month upgrade on the B1900 at mesa, but I heard the CRJ was at 4 years. At Pinnacle the upgrade is at 2 years, for now. I know some who have upgraded in 12 months. That IS faster.

With regards to gulfstream. They have guys that are on a union seniority list who I believe start at around 16 an hour. They are covered by a union. The 250 hour academy guys only make 8-11 an hour, and are NOT covered by any contract.

That is the difference.

mesa PACE guys pay for their interview/job.

I agree with you that contract language is cr@p. They need to write contracts in simple to understand e.n.g.l.i.s.h.

p.s. I just used someone elses computer, and almost posted under their screen name Better watch out for that in the future. Could get some people in trouble

 

[Otto Coarsen]

BE1900 and DHC-8 upgrades are less then 6 months if you have the time (IE: ATP and competitive times are around 2000 hrs)

ERJ currently 2-2.5 yrs
CRJ currently a tad bit less than 4 years, but this is based on the fact that Mesa didn't hire for well over 2 years... Now we're taking 80+ a month so anticipated upgrade in the ERJ is 1.5 and CRJ as little as 2....

But on the flip side.... You never can say for sure.... For all I know our favorite "egomaniac" at the helm may buy another carrier or 6 and merge seniority lists or something.. This could be bad....

Bottom line is Mesa pilots are "generally speaking" a soild group of people... Nice folks and competant pilots..... Our leadership is obviously lacking in many aspects both through our MEC and Management... But this is no reason to fault a pilot group...

He|| I didn't even work here when they voted in the TA, but I still get harassed from time to time by people who have no clue of the facts...

 

[aspire]

Just my two cents but thought I'd chime in on this particularly cold and quiet night.

I think the big difference, the one WE all care about, is that when our respective airline's contract comes up for negotiation the first thing out of management's mouth is, "in order to be competitive we have to pay you what pilots @ MESA make otherwise our costs are higher etc,etc. and they will under bid us for our flying...etc.etc."

Never once have I ever heard of them asking us to compare our compensation to any 19 seat operator, Gulfstream or otherwise.

In other words, I don't care too much what guys at Great Lakes, Gulfstream, Island Air, etc. make and at the same time I don't pay a whole lot of attention to contracts for guys pulling down 200,000+ for driving a 76. Not that I don't sit at home a dream of the latter. That's what I think is the difference.

My .02 cents
aspire

 

[Otto Coarsen]

With regards to gulfstream. They have guys that are on a union seniority list who I believe start at around 16 an hour. They are covered by a union. The 250 hour academy guys only make 8-11 an hour, and are NOT covered by any contract.

That is the difference.

mesa PACE guys pay for their interview/job.


Whoa there big fella.... $16.00 an hour? Mesa (Airmidwest pilots) flying the 1900 make over 18.00/hr their 1st year... MOST of them have the time and are upgrading to well over 30.00 within the year... Most of the 300 Hr San Juaners Start @ 21.00 in one of the jets and are doing a little better then 30 as FOs within 3...

You cannot possibly be arguing this point...

As for the PACE program, I just looked it up.... I never had heard of that before.... After reading the details I will agree, that's pretty cheesy indeed... Happily I'll tell you I have yet to meet someone who has participated (or at least admits to have participated) in this program...

Even so, Paying for BE-58 baron time, ground instruction, interview prep, and sim time and being guaranteed an INTERVIEW for a real job is hardly as unacceptable as PAYING TO WORK AS AN FO FOR 250 hours! Please....

By the way I'll add Flightsafety used to have this exact same type of thing with ASA just before 9/11... I personally know someone who paid 12000 for their job at ASA... And everyone rides ASA like their the hot shisnit...

 

[Otto Coarsen]

when our respective airline's contract comes up for negotiation the first thing out of management's mouth is, "in order to be competitive we have to pay you what pilots @ MESA make otherwise our costs are higher etc,etc. and they will under bid us for our flying...etc.etc."

#1) I respect you opinion and concers for bettering our industry..

But let me ask you this:
Has this happened? Has you management told you this?

You have to remember that this contract was negociated in a CRAP economy.... It's slowly getting better, but Heck even Mesaba's new TA (if it passes) sucks and is only slightly better then ours if at all...


Another point..... If Mesa pilots HAD given up their jobs for the sake of your (so called) future negociating power, do you really think it would have helped? Or would it have marked the beginning of Other airlines spawning non-union spinoffs to steal union flying at cheaper rates? Believe me there are kids everywhere that will fly jets for next to nothing... Hell I remember threads trying to politely convince starving CFI's on this board not to go to FREEDUMB... I remember Duane Worth traveling to San Juan College to educate these kids about the issue... Not only did our contract remove FREEDUMB from the regional world, but it prevented this from ever happening again at Mesa... That is worth alot....

 

[DTWFO]

What does any of this have to do with Pinnacle????