Pinnacle MEC Chairman Recall

[Smarta$$]

Why does every post that JOEMERCHANT and those that think like him or engage him in any way, become the SPECIAL OLYMPICS?

You are not solving the worlds problems and you create pages after pages of wasted time for the rest of us. STFU.

Now, I want an answer as to why the motion was withdrawn.

Was it

A. The reps that put fourth the motion suddenly got smart enough to realize this was an epically stupid idea?

B. The reps that put fourth the motion looked around them and realized there was not enough reps around them dumb enough to support the motion, and they realized it would FAIL anyway?

 

[CFI2766]

I'm on full time leave, but I still keep current. My thoughts:

-Keeping current is simply the right thing to do. How can I negotiate for the pilots on my seniority list if I don't know what they (we) are going through?

-I'm still safe when I fly, but I'm not as good as I was when I flew every week. If my voice is heard on a CVR for whatever reason, there is little doubt that I will face greater scrutiny, fair or not, in an ensuing investigation due to my flying schedule.

-The flying I do does detract from what I am on full time ALPA leave to do. There is no question about it. The people that I interact with in the GO are in the office every week of the month. I am not.

-For every complaint about full time reps not staying current, there is a corresponding complaint about the inefficiency and lack of progress of what my committee is responsible for. Stated differently, there is a damned if you do, and damned if you don't feel to the concept of currency while on full time leave.

 

[Tarzan]

And during those eight years, he's done a great job. Flying would have been nothing more than distraction. Just silly politics.

I guess you've never heard of the Vice Chairman position......

 

[dondk]

Instead of the MEC chair at any pilot group flying the line on occasion to "appreciate what they are going through".. how about the avg line pilot make an effort to understand what the MEC chair and status rep are going through?

Fact is, when pilot reps interact with company and govt, they aren't looked down upon because they don't fly the line on occasion. That only comes from pilots. Govt and company reps give MEC and LEC reps the credit they deserve as pilots. (their political skills might be another matter...)

Look, union reps know what pilots go through... they have lived the life... for years, even decades.... what most, even 80% or more don't know is the political world of pilot representation...

The issue isn't a MEC or LEC rep losing touch... it is the line pilot who rarely makes an effort to understand what representation is all about...

I have to disagree.
The union is a volunteer organization, yes you heard right... volunteer. There is no application process, interview and hiring manager that says you are hired to be a rep, committee member, chair, LEC or even MEC member. In each of those positions, come payday they are paid from whom they are employed with, not ALPA.

The issue is the rep losing touch, not the average line pilot not understanding what representation is all about. The rep chose to do that job, no one has forced them to do it, the rep chooses how much or little effort to put into it. Ironically the MEC chair and other full time buy union positions are compensated well above guarantee and commonly well above what the average line pilot is compensated.

They are compensated above their peers for the silly politics, for the time they spend with management, meetings in Washington or wherever. They are not doing it for free, even though they volunteered for the job. If they fly the bare minimums of 1 trip a month, they are STILL compensated, so where is the downside for the union rep? No one is asking them to do it for free, they are just asking them to do it.

So, for that extra compensation, what is the issue with staying FAR current?

That is the problem with the system that passes resolutions that give union leaders extra compensation, the ability to no longer be current, the ability to no longer be a pilot for which they were hired for in the first place. Again, the company hired them, not the union, the company is writing their paycheck and it is signed not by Prater.

So, who is losing touch?

 

[higney85]

A rep spot is a 7 day a week ordeal when things are happening. Reps are not paid to do it, but as was stated, if a rep has to be at a meeting they are bought off the trip and paid as if they did it (less perdiem). If the meeting is last minute and you were already off or on vacation there is no pay for doing it. I'm not complaining, but a rep spot comes down to wanting to help the pilots. In the end some pilots will always complain, no matter how much money is or isn't involved. I believe a rep does need to stay current. At 9E the reps all have full lines (the last few months at 90+ block), I'd say we are pretty current and linked to the group we represent.

 

[PCL_128]

So, for that extra compensation, what is the issue with staying FAR current?

Two issues:

1. It's irresponsible on the union side, because the full-time rep is now devoting some of his time to flying, taking checkrides, and attending recurrent ground school instead of running the union. Work won't get done, and the interests of the pilots aren't coming first, which is what a full-time rep should be worried about.

2. It's irresponsible on the flying side, because someone flying just enough to remain current will not be anywhere close to proficient.

Like I said, nothing but silly politics.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I have to disagree.
The union is a volunteer organization, yes you heard right... volunteer. There is no application process, interview and hiring manager that says you are hired to be a rep, committee member, chair, LEC or even MEC member. In each of those positions, come payday they are paid from whom they are employed with, not ALPA.

They do run through an election process.... but we are really talking about a full time buy rep such as the Chairman. S/he has been elected to run a union. Not flying a jet.

The issue is the rep losing touch, not the average line pilot not understanding what representation is all about.

Why? An MEC Chair is elected to be a rep but he should fly? What part of years or even decades of flying, thus understanding the line pilot doesn't the rep understand?

The rep chose to do that job, no one has forced them to do it, the rep chooses how much or little effort to put into it. Ironically the MEC chair and other full time buy union positions are compensated well above guarantee and commonly well above what the average line pilot is compensated.

And anyone can choose to be a rep or on full time buy. Compensation has nothing to do with this issue.

They are compensated above their peers for the silly politics, for the time they spend with management, meetings in Washington or wherever. They are not doing it for free, even though they volunteered for the job. If they fly the bare minimums of 1 trip a month, they are STILL compensated, so where is the downside for the union rep? No one is asking them to do it for free, they are just asking them to do it.

Again.. compensation is not the issue here. You lose creditbility when you call it 'silly' politics, yet that is where the pay raises, work rules... IOW the CBA comes from....

So, for that extra compensation, what is the issue with staying FAR current?

B/c it is a need of the line pilot to satisfy an emotional desire for their ego to be understood. Rather, if the pilots were not apathetic and engaged in the political process the MEC chair would be well aware of what it is like to fly the line.....

That is the problem with the system that passes resolutions that give union leaders extra compensation,

democracy.

the ability to no longer be current,

not required to do the job. Simply a show to satisfy emotional desires of pilots who lack the ability to understand the very process that thier careers are dependant.

the ability to no longer be a pilot for which they were hired for in the first place.

They can always be a pilot as they retain sen. rights.

Again, the company hired them, not the union, the company is writing their paycheck and it is signed not by Prater.

The union elected them to do a job.

So, who is losing touch?

Your position is basically whittled down to... "As line pilots, the MEC Chair needs to understand line flying, but line pilots don't need to understand the MEC Chair work....but you better get us a CBA"

 

[dondk]

Two issues:

1. It's irresponsible on the union side, because the full-time rep is now devoting some of his time to flying, taking checkrides, and attending recurrent ground school instead of running the union. Work won't get done, and the interests of the pilots aren't coming first, which is what a full-time rep should be worried about.

2. It's irresponsible on the flying side, because someone flying just enough to remain current will not be anywhere close to proficient.

Like I said, nothing but silly politics.

#2.. No point in arguing, point is well taken.

#1. How long are we talking about with recurrent and checkrides? Maybe 2 weeks in a year, maybe?

NO full time rep works 365 days a year, and the union will not fall apart if the full time rep takes the two weeks a year to stay current.

Regardless, If the same full time rep has the opportunity to upgrade or change equipment that requires training, we both know they will find time to do both.

 

[dondk]

They do run through an election process.... but we are really talking about a full time buy rep such as the Chairman. S/he has been elected to run a union. Not flying a jet.

It is still a volunteer position, no one gave the Chairman the choice of scrubbing lav's or being chair. Running the union is left up to the guys in Herndon, not the Chairman of a MEC. All S/he is a person that is the voice for that pilot group. That MEC chair still needs the okay from Herdon.

Why? An MEC Chair is elected to be a rep but he should fly? What part of years or even decades of flying, thus understanding the line pilot doesn't the rep understand?

Issues with any company and the pilot group is not static, it is dynamic, any rep knows this. That is why it usually is important to stay in touch with those you represent.

And anyone can choose to be a rep or on full time buy. Compensation has nothing to do with this issue
Again.. compensation is not the issue here. You lose creditbility when you call it 'silly' politics, yet that is where the pay raises, work rules... IOW the CBA comes from....

IF compensation is not an issue, then why is the full time buy so high? What is wrong with guarantee? Perhaps 10% over guarantee, maybe even 10% over the average line value of the pilots they represent? Why is 30, 40, 50 hours above guarantee the norm and not the exception.

B/c it is a need of the line pilot to satisfy an emotional desire for their ego to be understood. Rather, if the pilots were not apathetic and engaged in the political process the MEC chair would be well aware of what it is like to fly the line....

.

I agree with this.

Your position is basically whittled down to... "As line pilots, the MEC Chair needs to understand line flying, but line pilots don't need to understand the MEC Chair work....but you better get us a CBA"

My position is... What is good for the goose should be the same for the gander. To carve out that a single person or a specific group is held to a different standard than the whole pilot group. What good is a union where everyone is not treated the same? That is what the CBA is for, to ensure the 30 year pilot has the same rights as the 366 day pilot. Seniority provides you perks for your service, ironically to the company and not to the union. To carve out and suggest that just because s/he is the MEC chair, they are absolved from currency, compensated well above their peers and it is all in the interest of the pilot group? I must have missed a turn somewhere, because I don't see it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is still a volunteer position, no one gave the Chairman the choice of scrubbing lav's or being chair. Running the union is left up to the guys in Herndon, not the Chairman of a MEC. All S/he is a person that is the voice for that pilot group. That MEC chair still needs the okay from Herdon.

Where is this logically connected? The issue goes from the Chair should fly to appease the line pilots to Herndon is really in charge?

Issues with any company and the pilot group is not static, it is dynamic, any rep knows this. That is why it usually is important to stay in touch with those you represent.

So how does flying a 4 day trip with a few pilots serve this purpose? Rather if the Rep spent a few hours in the crewroom he speaks to far many more pilots than a select few at FL290.

IF compensation is not an issue, then why is the full time buy so high? What is wrong with guarantee? Perhaps 10% over guarantee, maybe even 10% over the average line value of the pilots they represent? Why is 30, 40, 50 hours above guarantee the norm and not the exception.

Ask the MEC members who approve the compensation. Again, though, why does compensation or it being high have to do with pilots believing that flight currency equals effective representation with govt and company officials?

So full time buy, with high pay but no fly is bad.

yet

Full time buy with high pay and flying is good.

So is the money an issue or not? And why would the MEC approve this pay?


.

I agree with this.


My position is... What is good for the goose should be the same for the gander. To carve out that a single person or a specific group is held to a different standard than the whole pilot group.

Now it has to do with equallity? Every pilot is free to run for MEC chair election. After the electiion only one pilot can do it. That carve out comes with a different job description.

What good is a union where everyone is not treated the same?

Interesting perspective....

That is what the CBA is for, to ensure the 30 year pilot has the same rights as the 366 day pilot. Seniority provides you perks for your service, ironically to the company and not to the union. To carve out and suggest that just because s/he is the MEC chair, they are absolved from currency, compensated well above their peers and it is all in the interest of the pilot group? I must have missed a turn somewhere, because I don't see it.

Yet this is how it is done..... often reality = perception. However at times it doesn't.

Fact is an MEC chair on full time buy is more effective buidling grassroots support in the crewrooms, or representng the pilots in other venues. S/he has proven he can fly the line.... what else is gained except placating egos.

 

[PCL_128]

#1. How long are we talking about with recurrent and checkrides? Maybe 2 weeks in a year, maybe?

Even a single day wasted on inane bulls*^% that does nothing to improve the lives of pilots is too much. But in reality, it's a four-day trip every three months, plus a week of ground school, plus two weeks to prepare for a checkride, since there's no way you'll be prepared for one since you haven't been flying. In total, about a month and a half out of the year is wasted on useless drivel, just to appease a few mouth-breathers that need their egos stroked by knowing that they forced their own union volunteers to maintain currency for no valid reason.

NO full time rep works 365 days a year

You really don't know what you're talking about. There is no such thing as a day off for most MEC Chairman, and for the other Officers at a large airline.

Regardless, If the same full time rep has the opportunity to upgrade or change equipment that requires training, we both know they will find time to do both.

A full-time rep doesn't have to attend training at most airlines if he is awarded a vacancy on a new equipment type or an upgrade. He gets the new pay rate on the effective date of the vacancy, and then has to go through training when he returns to the line. Why? Because most MECs and airlines understand that it makes no sense for someone to attend training when they're busy running a union.

Running the union is left up to the guys in Herndon, not the Chairman of a MEC. All S/he is a person that is the voice for that pilot group. That MEC chair still needs the okay from Herdon.

What on earth are you talking about? You couldn't be more wrong. A local MEC is run by local leaders. You should know better than this.

That is why it usually is important to stay in touch with those you represent.

And flying a trip every three months, or even every month, is not going to accomplish that. There are far more effective ways of staying in touch with the membership.

IF compensation is not an issue, then why is the full time buy so high? What is wrong with guarantee? Perhaps 10% over guarantee, maybe even 10% over the average line value of the pilots they represent? Why is 30, 40, 50 hours above guarantee the norm and not the exception.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the average line pilot is getting 13+ days off, and the average full-time union rep is very lucky to get half that. And even on days he's not officially "working," the phone calls and emails never stop. There is no such thing as a day off for an MEC Chairman.

So how does flying a 4 day trip with a few pilots serve this purpose? Rather if the Rep spent a few hours in the crewroom he speaks to far many more pilots than a select few at FL290.

Fact is an MEC chair on full time buy is more effective buidling grassroots support in the crewrooms, or representng the pilots in other venues. S/he has proven he can fly the line.... what else is gained except placating egos.

Bingo!

 

[CFIT]

The reality is that the MEC chairs and Prater for that fact, are so far removed from the line flying level, it's below them.

Plus if they did fly the line, and mixed with the "little people", and screwed up, how would that show in the ALPO magazine?

Make them work, like everyone they're "supposedly" representing, holidays and weekends, things would change.

Dues would probably go up, but it would definately change........

 

[dondk]

Even a single day wasted on inane bulls*^% that does nothing to improve the lives of pilots is too much. But in reality, it's a four-day trip every three months, plus a week of ground school, plus two weeks to prepare for a checkride, since there's no way you'll be prepared for one since you haven't been flying. In total, about a month and a half out of the year is wasted on useless drivel, just to appease a few mouth-breathers that need their egos stroked by knowing that they forced their own union volunteers to maintain currency for no valid reason.

lumping currency and training as insane BS and useless drivel is disappointing. I would hope, the person leading my organization would want to be no different than the masses.

You really don't know what you're talking about. There is no such thing as a day off for most MEC Chairman, and for the other Officers at a large airline.

So you are going to tell me there is no vacation, no sick days and god help everyone if A MEC chair or CEO of an airline cannot perform. You make is sound like the upper echelon of the union are demigod's.

What on earth are you talking about? You couldn't be more wrong. A local MEC is run by local leaders. You should know better than this.

All I can recall, I asked a MEC chair about a strike vote, the response was Herdon would not give an okay. The MEC is run by the local leaders, that is true, but they are managed by Herndon. You know that as well, overshoot your budget and who comes calling?

There is no such thing as a day off for an MEC Chairman.

there is always a day off, we both know this to be true. If you chose not to take one, that is your choice. They are there, always has been, they may be disguised as something different, but they are there.

Regardless, this is beating a dead horse. You have your positions and they are well noted. Others have their own, which instead of downplaying or detracting from, a leadership should recognize as a problem. I agree you will never have 100% support, although when a leader is dodging bullets every few months. That should be a sign that they should get their a$$ out to the people the represent and get that grassroots support.

This is not about just one MEC or one representative, it is about a union in general. Don't forget where you came from, I assure you those that voted them into their exalted position have not forgotten.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Guys.. this isn't difficult.... Let's look back at 9E the last few years...

Section 6 - sorry the de facto NC member, the MEC chair is unavailable for two weeks. He is in recurrent.

9E buys Colgan- What is the 9E pilots position? Don't know, MEC chair is flying and can't be reached.

Colgan crashes in BUF- We need 9E support, where is the MEC chair? How long till he can be in MEM? 16 hours... he is on a trip and scheduling needs a replacement.


9E buys Mesaba- Where is the Chair? Anyone?


Where do you you want the MEC chair during these events? In a two week training course? Flying the line? So he excuses himself from ground school or calls off the trip... is he to "make up" this time in the near future so he can say that he flies the line and is current? What happens when another representation event occurs during his make up? When does it end?

Do you want your representation ready and available or not?


If you want your MEC to understand what it is like to fly the line then participate in the process.

 

[PCL_128]

lumping currency and training as insane BS and useless drivel is disappointing. I would hope, the person leading my organization would want to be no different than the masses.

I would hope that the person leading my organization would want to be focused on doing his job. Crazy concept.

So you are going to tell me there is no vacation, no sick days and god help everyone if A MEC chair or CEO of an airline cannot perform.

Vacation? It's a rarity for a full-time rep during busy times to take any. It usually gets deferred or paid out because they're too busy. Sick time? Unless you're dying, you'll probably have to be at the office, otherwise things will get too far behind. Remember, an MEC is always running on a bare-bones staff, because the union can't afford to have extra people sitting around. When someone on full-time leave isn't there, things get really far behind, really quick.

All I can recall, I asked a MEC chair about a strike vote, the response was Herdon would not give an okay.

There are very few things that require any sort of approval from Herndon. A strike vote is one of the few. Generally, a local MEC runs its own business without having to even inform Herndon about what's going on.

If you chose not to take one, that is your choice.

No, if you choose to take one, then you're usually being irresponsible.

You have your positions and they are well noted. Others have their own

My position is based upon personal experience. Yours?

I agree you will never have 100% support, although when a leader is dodging bullets every few months. That should be a sign that they should get their a$$ out to the people the represent and get that grassroots support.

I agree with this 100%. Of course, that has nothing to do with flying airplanes or going to recurrent ground school. It has everything to do with getting into the crew lounge and spending hours listening to your constituents.

Guys.. this isn't difficult.... Let's look back at 9E the last few years...

Section 6 - sorry the de facto NC member, the MEC chair is unavailable for two weeks. He is in recurrent.

9E buys Colgan- What is the 9E pilots position? Don't know, MEC chair is flying and can't be reached.

Colgan crashes in BUF- We need 9E support, where is the MEC chair? How long till he can be in MEM? 16 hours... he is on a trip and scheduling needs a replacement.


9E buys Mesaba- Where is the Chair? Anyone?


Where do you you want the MEC chair during these events? In a two week training course? Flying the line? So he excuses himself from ground school or calls off the trip... is he to "make up" this time in the near future so he can say that he flies the line and is current? What happens when another representation event occurs during his make up? When does it end?

Do you want your representation ready and available or not?


If you want your MEC to understand what it is like to fly the line then participate in the process.

Well said!