Pinnacle info

[freighthumper]

Can someone give me the lowdown on Pinnacle? Bases, pay, upgrade time, quality of life and such...

 

[JJJ]

Do a search on Pinnacle. I think it may have been discussed once or twice. If you have more questions ask away, there are several of us PCL pilots that frequent this board.

 

[freighthumper]

I did a search but didnt come up with too much... Is 3000 tot. 1250 tubine PIC competitive there? Do you have any west coast bases? IS quality of life good as far as being able to get some time at home?(currently doing 5 overnights a week..)

 

[norskman2]

Yo, Humper,

do a search on the board for previous PCL threads. PCL has bases at MSP, DTW, MEM. West Coast? Dream on! Nothing west of the Mighty Mississippi!

 

[NDPILOT]

Is 3000 tot. 1250 tubine PIC competitive there?

A good friend just got hired there, his times...1700 Total, 375me, and 90 hours of turbine SIC.

Although, another friend of mine was told he was over qualified with 3700 total and about 1700 me.

Who knows.

 

[B190Captain]

freighthumper,


Well I can tell you some things that some of my buddies have told me about them.

As for your quals yes, they are good. I have seen peeps hired with less time than you.

You DO NOT get paid while in training. All your living expenses such as room and board and meals and so on are costs out of your pocket. So correct me if I am wrong it's about 2 months without a paycheck?

Reserve forever. I have spoken to guys that have been there about 2 years and they are still in DTW sitting on reserve. You probably wouldn't be flying 5 overnights a week at PCL but you will be sitting on your @ss on ready reserve in DTW.

1st year pay is an insult to all right seaters of a CL-65.

But aside from that life is good.

 

[LITCHAT7]

What the f? Where do you get your info? I've been at pinnacle for almost a year. NEVER SAT RESERVE!

 

[freighthumper]

Thanks for the info.

 

[B190Captain]

What the f? Where do you get your info? I've been at pinnacle for almost a year. NEVER SAT RESERVE!

Well maybe things are moving along now but that was the info I got from some of your PCL peers. Is any other part of my previous post innacurate?

 

[DTWFO]

"Is any other part of my previous post innacurate?"


Just some explanation/clarification. Depending on which domicile you are awarded, reserve times can vary GREATLY!! I just got a line for the first time this month and that was after 13 months on reserve in Detroit. This is not typical of other bases in MSP and MEM. Some FO's never sat reserve while we did for 13 months. It all depends where you are at. Also, complications in mngmts "staffing model" contributed to my long reserve time. You probably got your info from an "off-the-street" captain. A couple years back the company got into a bind and hired captains directly into the left seat. Due to complications with the elimination of the SAAB last December and the company's captain displacements to FO, this group of "off-the-street" captains have had to wait for all the FO's that have the seniority and time to upgrade to do so before they will be able to hold a line. They have been on reserve for an unreal 3 years with Pinnacle! That is who you probably heard that from. This is not typical at Pinnacle however. Yes, there is no pay during training until you pass your checkride. Yes, the pay sucks for FO's but you have to understand that our contract is coming due soon and the one we have now was signed before the addition of the CRJ to the fleet and is outdated. And yes you can fly 5 day trips if you want to. I have one next week. In fact, even when I was on reserve I rarely did anything but overnight trips. Quality of life isn't the best but it's a regional airline people. None of them are that great. The people that work here are the best and make it all worth while.

 

[tittyjet]

The current published mins are 1500/300 (for non-Gulfstream PFTers). You can bet that you won't get a call back with those numbers unless someone walks your stuff in.

 

[ForgedBlade]

Us "off-the-street" captains were the red-headed step-children and were for the most part stuck on reserve for a very long time. It was almost two years of it for me before I left. I'm not sure how all the other regionals are since Pinnacle was my first (and last) regional, but reserve there was brutal, especially since the bulk of it is spent sitting at the airport!! Many FO's had lines a few months in, but again, it varied. You got the rest.

 

[DoinTime]

Us "off-the-street" captains were the red-headed step-children and were for the most part stuck on reserve for a very long time.

You guys weren't the red headed step children you were the most junior captains in the company. There is a place for the most junior people in there status. Its called RESERVE. I have a hard time believing that you had no concept of the seniority system before starting here.

 

[T-Gates]

Us reserves at this company ARE the red-headed step children.

 

[ForgedBlade]

There is a place for the most junior people in there status. Its called RESERVE.

Therein lies the problems with Pinnacle's logic. Being junior does not necessarily mean you are to be punished with reserve. At many airlines, senior pilots take reserve, making it harder for some junior guys to get. It's not entirely meant as a way to prove who is stuck at the bottom and who isn't. Maybe some day you'll grasp that.

And yes, we were the step-children of the company - many of the "older" pilots looked at us like we hadn't paid our dues in this industry. Had the company not needed a bunch of experienced pilots, they wouldn't have hired us off-the-street into the left seat.

 

[DoinTime]

Therein lies the problems with Pinnacle's logic. Being junior does not necessarily mean you are to be punished with reserve. At many airlines, senior pilots take reserve, making it harder for some junior guys to get. It's not entirely meant as a way to prove who is stuck at the bottom and who isn't. Maybe some day you'll grasp that.

I don't know of one regional airline (or any scheduled airline) that reserve goes to the senior end of the list. You should have known that reserves at Pinnacle had 10 days off with quite a bit of ready reserve. If you didn't its your own fault for not doing your homework before accepting a new job.

And yes, we were the step-children of the company - many of the "older" pilots looked at us like we hadn't paid our dues in this industry. Had the company not needed a bunch of experienced pilots, they wouldn't have hired us off-the-street into the left seat.

If you had stayed long enough you might know that those "older" pilots you speak of treat everyone that way. Many of them were new hire captains themselves in the '80s. The company did not 'need' experienced pilots. They needed pilots with the right numbers on their resume to get a break from the insurance company. Many FO's with over 2000 hours of part 121 multi-turbine time in company were passed up on upgrade for charter or corporate guys with no airline experience and barely the minimum time requirements. Don't kid yourself that somehow you deserved the left seat more than some of our three year FO's.

 

[Sppedmode]

Hey,
You guys didn't have to sit reserve in the left seat. You could have easily bid to the right seat and had 18-20 days off like I do now. I just ain't getting paid jack squat!
And Forged...what do think helped you get your job at ATA?

 

[ForgedBlade]

Dude, I never assumed I deserved a left seat more than anyone else. Had you been in my shoes and had the offer, would you have said no? HAd it not been for 9/11, there would have been more. I did do my homework and knew what I was getting in to, unfortunately, any attempts by anyone to improve the quality of life at PCL was always a waste of time.

If you don't know of any airline that reserve can go senior, then you haven't looked around quite enough! And yes, getting more 121 time at PCL did help me get out, but I came in the door with some already, as did most of us. PIC jet is PIC jet.

 

[Lear70]

All the Street Captains DID do their homework before we came on. We jumpseated around the system, asked a LOT of hard questions, had the same Kool-aid served to us during the interview by those-who-will-not-be-named on Nonconnah, and swallowed and smiled because it all sounded so good: "No more than 90 days on reserve, more street captains to come, lots of jets coming, so come on down!"

We did. 9/11 happens, Street Captain program stopped, all of us furloughed. Back a couple months later, then displaced to F/O. Back a couple months later but stuck on reserve forever and nowhere else to go that's better. Such is life and as one of our instructors is fond of saying, "Suck it up, CUPCAKE!" What I CAN say is that I'm d*mn lucky to have a job, even if I b*tch about getting JM'd below 10 days off and they pay me my measly 3.75 instead of giving me my comp day. There's nothing I can do about it except smile and keep sending out those resumes to SWA, JetBlue, ATA and whoever else looks like a good career move.

I can also vouch for Forged on the inability to improve reserve life. Everyone who works for Pinnacle knows who I am (same screen name I use for our communications emails for the union) and most know that I've been doing the reserve line construction for DTW the last 5 months (except October). It takes an act of God and written consent from Jesus to get just ONE extra 12-day off ready reserve line, even if it makes life easier FOR CORPORATE. During the pilot meeting today we discussed how good on morale it would be to let the extra reserves beyond the paired lines have 12 days off... they're just extra guys sitting around anyway. TM and MG both pretty much said not a snowball's chance in... well, you get the idea.

Others before us sat reserve just as long or longer and hated it (and b*tched about it) just as much (I have it on good authority from other senior guys who were here at the time that we don't whine any more or less than they did). We thought we had paid our dues,,, well I guess we get to pay a little more. Did we deserve it more than others already here? Nope. Does a 5,000 hour guy with 2,000 jet PIC do a better job than a 2,000 hour guy with no jet experience and little to no turbine PIC? Probably so or you'd see more 2,000 hour guys at the majors. Do we have any say in what corporate does? Ummmm NO! So why do we continue to bicker amongst ourselves about it? Dayummm...

Incidentally, for the ORIGINAL post inquiring about quality of life at Pinnacle: This kind of stuff does NOT dominate the corporate culture here. Most everyone gets along quite well and it is an overall decent place to work, especially for a regional. Also for those interested, there was a pilot meeting in DTW today with the Chief Pilot and Director of Ops. Effective immediately, hiring is to be ramped up to 40-45 a month (20 in class on the 1st, 24 in class on the 21st) throughout June of next year. Reserve will be nearly nonexistent for a while in most domiciles, especially MEM. Big NWA is accelerating our deliveries of CRJ's starting in January - I'm not going to speculate why on here, don't want to incite any riots beyond what my above post will probably do anyway.

 

[jstanotherpilot]

Hey Lear70, I have thanked you in the crew room and through email and on the airlinkpilots.com many times for your line construction help to all of us.

But something that torques me quite alot is p u s s i es complaining about reserve.

I sat four years reserve at my last 121 company. Street Captains were hired off the street from Emery because the Chief pilot thought that Emery was going to come back and he could get a job there at Emery someday by helping out some high seniority Emery Captains while they were out of work by hiring them around our seniority. All the FO's in our company had the time insurance wise to be Captain. And 80% of the FE's had the insurance time for upgrade to FO. We got screwed but thems the breaks. I was even furloughed 4 times as well during that time.

Only sat 3 days reserve at Pinnacle. I was lucky for once. But quite irritated listening to you guys whining about reserve. Its a part of the job and seniority. This place is ten times better than other places that alot of people start at. S h i t I made more at the last company as FE than you guys make here as Captain. But would much rather be here at a place thats not going to go around seniority as long as you have the insurance required time to upgrade.

Suck it up s h i t bird and quit complaining about reserve. In a few more months you'll be off the couch.

Stop complaining about the right of passsage sitting reserve. I didn't complain about sitting before. I expected reserve. I will probably sit four years reserve as Capt here when I get upgraded and I will not complain then. I expect it. Its a part of life if this is what you want to do for a living. Get over it.

If you don't like standard ops for this industy take your little 757 type you like to brag about and your Ebay/laptop business and go somewhere else. You don't have to work in the airline industry if you don't want to.

But if you stay stop trying to defend yourself and others about being a street Capt. It really pisses alot of people off. You are doing good in working on the website. Doing good work and keeping your mouth shut about reserve and not trying to defend the street capt position will go a long way towards redeeming yourself to the others who will never ever change their perception of street Capt position no matter what anybody ever says. If you don't want to stand down from your pride (which we all know you have a lot of) and redeem yourself maybe you should go elsewhere.

Thought you had already payed your dues??? When a doctor or a lawyer changes jobs they are still a doctor or lawyer getting money comensurate with the position they have earned in their industry. When a pilot changes jobs he is normally back to being an FO/FE and on reserve comensurate with industry standards and he never stops paying dues... Pick your life and then when you don't like your situation make your complaints to the person in the mirror. Best time to do this is in the wee hours of the morning when you are in the bathroom of your hotel room looking at your dilapidated self getting ready to get down to the hotel van on time during your illegal overnight/ highspeed/ stand-up/ continuous duty overnight on 3 and half hours of sleep.

 

[Lear70]

Hey Lear70, I have thanked you in the crew room and through email and on the airlinkpilots.com many times for your line construction help to all of us.

Samer deserves all the credit for DTW - if not for him, I wouldn't be doing anything with the schedules, and half of what I do is in self-defense since I'm on reserve (except for fighting for more ready reserve and home reserve lines which I can't hold), but you're welcome.

Suck it up s h i t bird and quit complaining about reserve. In a few more months you'll be off the couch.

Eeeeasy killer. We've been saying that for two and a half years. Every time it looks like the list is going to move, something happens (9/11, saabs go away, etc). If we want to b*tch about it, that's our prerogative - freedom of speech and all. And truth be told, we don't complain about reserve... we complain about how crew scheduling abuses the reserve system here. I sat reserve at my last 121 carrier THE ENTIRE TIME I WAS THERE, but didn't complain about it because they treated us decently and I had 14 days off a month. They went TU; "thems the breaks" as you so eloquently put it. Like I said, glad to have a job, but if the reserve guys want to grumble amongst themselves for the way this contract is bent and twisted, you don't have to listen.

If you don't like standard ops for this industy take your little 757 type you like to brag about and your Ebay/laptop business and go somewhere else. You don't have to work in the airline industry if you don't want to.

Love it when people bash me here anonymously . First, I don't have a 757 type. Secondly, I don't bring up my eBay work unless someone asks me about it which happens quite a bit - everyone wants a deal. Lastly, I'm not here to please anyone. I do the work I do for the Association because I like to contribute something to my profession and fellow pilot coworkers. Some people like me, some don't, can't please everyone and I'm certainly not going to work for people's approval. I don't need to "redeem" myself to you or anybody else and I'll go away when I find something better, as will everyone else in this industry; telling us to shut up or move on is juvenile.

 

[dondk]

I am going to chime in on this discussion...

Pinnacle is regional, thinking we are something else is the first common mistake. We are no better and in some cases no worse than ANY other regional out there. We have our specific issues that are specific to OUR management and OUR contract.

Reserves is an issue at Pinnacle that is due to a poor contract and even poorer management skills. Other regionals have better reserves systems and I am sure a few have worse. Our reserve system is poorly designed towards the junior people. Other have systems where the senior people would not be affected by reserve (never get called) but not at Pinnacle.. Heck they even junior manned the number one guy at the company... That should say enough about our reserves.

As for length of reserve, it is all cyclical... This time last year MSP was better than 12 months, before that MEM was close to 2 years, now it is DTW's turn. It all comes around, it just takes time. Next year it will be some other base and someone else will be bitchin...

We are a growing airline, that is right now the only real benefit we can offer to someone looking for a place to hang thier hat for a few years. The other regional growing is MESA, but that is a completly different story and reason. There are many others that are growing and hiring, but I do not think any are as small as we currently are. I wish all were growing and the days of having your choice of regionals were back. That is not coming anytime soon, so you need to chose what is right for you, just know in advance Pinnacle is by far not the worst nor the best, we are somewhere in the middle.

 

[jstanotherpilot]

Actually I did thank Samer more than the others involved including you Lear 70.

Was sitting next to you just the other day when you were talking about a 757 type. Sounded like you were saying you have one and was along the lines of dues payed and wanting to go somewhere else. I guess I misunderstood you. I just can't stand complainers but do admire that you tried to do something about it. I was and am irritated by the pilots who came right in and started out with Captain pay and then had the oddassity to complain about sitting reserve and being pushed back to FO pay for a couple months and now are back getting the good pay. Sitting reserve was the price to pay for getting Capt pay right off the bat. You were promised more growth faster. These guys took the bait. I would have too I'm sure, but I wouldn't have complained about being pushed around. The Capt pay would be worth the s h i t taken.

DondK Different subject : Isn't this why No.1 was junior manned?Am told No. 1 Capt was junior manned since most pilots don't seem to understand that the crew scheduling phones are taped going out as well as in. Crew sched was told to extend and junior man to the max to preserve and keep the total amont of crews on the payroll needed to the lowest practical, before they are to use a reserve. No. 1 was the last person on the list available who answered his phone. It wasn't that there was no reserves to do the job it was just that if crew sched doesn't follow what they have been mandated to do their jobs are in jeapordy.

 

[T-Gates]

Dondk's post is right on.

If I were in Memphis I would he holding an 11 day off hard line. But I HATE 6-Leg Daytrips and Highspeeds. So I chose to sit a long reserve here in DTW. It's all what you make it here. It shure as heck ain't the best place on the planet, but there are worse places...

Jstanotherpilot,

If you hate complainers that much, HOW do you stand even sitting in the crewroom? Thats the only thing us reserves are good at. Besides quoting from the "Sopranos".

 

[jstanotherpilot]

Ear plugs.

 

[ForgedBlade]

Reserves is an issue at Pinnacle that is due to a poor contract and even poorer management skills. Other regionals have better reserves systems and I am sure a few have worse. Our reserve system is poorly designed towards the junior people. Other have systems where the senior people would not be affected by reserve (never get called) but not at Pinnacle.. Heck they even junior manned the number one guy at the company... That should say enough about our reserves.

Nicely said!

 

[NEWSOUTH]

jstanotherpilot

With an ATP and your flight time....being on reserve as a FO in DTW....you have got other issues that are causing your anger. Why don't you let these guys discuss these issues without all your angry attacks? I feel sure you are redirecting your anger at Rich unjustly. Just give positive input or take a break man. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

jstanotherpilot was kind of rough on Rich. Rich does a lot of good work for us all on the website. And his complaints about our reserve system are well justified. PINNACLE HAS ONE OF THE WORST RESERVE SYSTEMS. A good portion of our reserve is ready reserve. That means that you have to sit at the airport for 9 hours. Both our AM and PM ready reserve periods have 9-hour duty periods. You only get paid 3.75 hours for being at the airport and on duty all day. Many of our reserve lines have all ready reserve days. Many airlines (and some regionals) don't even have ready or "hot" reserve. Most of our reserve lines have only 10 days off. There are a few with 12 days off, but those are the crappy all-ready reserve lines. A lot of other airlines have reserve lines with 13, 14, and 15 days off. This company would never ever ever do anything like that- although they could. In general, our contract has poor overall work rules for reserve pilots. In our next contract, one of our objectives should be to eliminate ready reserve.

Now I'm going to get on my soapbox and tell you some of my feelings on this company:

Many of the schedulers are rude and uncooperative in helping you with schedule changes, etc.

It is common practice for many people in various corporate departments to not answer their phones and not even call you back. I think this policy is standard ops.

This company also treats you like a baby even though you are a professional pilot who flies a $23-million dollar jet. You have to go get a Doctor's note if you are sick more than once in 3 months. Pretty unbelievable isn't it? That right there summarizes the whole attitude of management at this place.

There's more than a few people here with lifetime memberships and I don't know how they can do it.

 

[TedCFII]

It is common practice for many people in various corporate departments to not answer their phones and not even call you back. I think this policy is standard ops.

Remember our "Guiding Principles"

Commiment to Communication!

 

[B190Captain]

jstanotherpilot was kind of rough on Rich. Rich does a lot of good work for us all on the website. And his complaints about our reserve system are well justified. PINNACLE HAS ONE OF THE WORST RESERVE SYSTEMS. A good portion of our reserve is ready reserve. That means that you have to sit at the airport for 9 hours. Both our AM and PM ready reserve periods have 9-hour duty periods. You only get paid 3.75 hours for being at the airport and on duty all day. Many of our reserve lines have all ready reserve days. Many airlines (and some regionals) don't even have ready or "hot" reserve. Most of our reserve lines have only 10 days off. There are a few with 12 days off, but those are the crappy all-ready reserve lines. A lot of other airlines have reserve lines with 13, 14, and 15 days off. This company would never ever ever do anything like that- although they could. In general, our contract has poor overall work rules for reserve pilots. In our next contract, one of our objectives should be to eliminate ready reserve.

Now I'm going to get on my soapbox and tell you some of my feelings on this company:

Many of the schedulers are rude and uncooperative in helping you with schedule changes, etc.

It is common practice for many people in various corporate departments to not answer their phones and not even call you back. I think this policy is standard ops.

This company also treats you like a baby even though you are a professional pilot who flies a $23-million dollar jet. You have to go get a Doctor's note if you are sick more than once in 3 months. Pretty unbelievable isn't it? That right there summarizes the whole attitude of management at this place.

There's more than a few people here with lifetime memberships and I don't know how they can do it.

Wow, talk about sh*tty. You guys really need to button down and stick it to them on your next contract negotiation and STAND YOUR GROUND!!

As for us and through a pretty solid negotiating team we managed to resolve some quality of life issues and we are not even close to your size. Our contract is due for reneg in 2005.

1. Ready reserve or HOT reserve: non-existent

2. Stand-up overnights (CDO's) : Not permitted by contract.

3. 4 hour minimum check in. 6 hour minimum on day off.

5. No scheduled layovers that are less than 9 hours.

6. All lines have 11 days off minimum.

Those are a few perks we have through tough negotiating. We also had a unanimous strike vote in our back pocket.

Good luck and PLEEEASE do something about your pay and they need to pay folks in initial training. To not pay them is just wrong!!