Pinnacle Buying Colgan

[redflyer65]

Vector,

Please open your eyes. Pinnacle pilots have been the backbone of this airline for a long time. If it wasn't for our pilot group, this place would have folded like a cheap suit. Management likes to rake it in, and not give any back. You are about to find out. (Unfortunately)

They could have gone out and bought other airlines, but those airlines are pretty much organized. I guarantee this is not just happenstance.

Why did they by Colgan? One reason mainly.... No Union.
This management team continues to think they are hampered by a union. They really should use the pilots as an assest and work with the union to make this place better. They choose not to at every single turn.

I think a secondary reason might be the Saab certificate. It will be very easy to relieve Mesaba of some of their routes when Pinnacle Corp. has a Saab certificate.

I don't disagree that you guys don't do a great job every single day, but bottom line is that this management team could care less. You won't be compensated for it in any form. You will be quickly added to the wonderful "People" that Phil loves to talk about, but when it comes to payday, you'd better get a second job. As a matter of fact, what you descibe about your pilot group sounds a lot like ours. We need to join forces, not let this guys run over you. And it WILL happen. Just as Lear says. Maybe not tomorrow, or next week but it's definitely on the way.

I really don't buy the codeshare arguement either. It's not that hard to put together an agreement on a codeshare. I think that part is really bogus. Colgan probably operates a very low feed percentage, it just doesn't add up.

 

[BirdCatcher]

Don't let your current state of misery with your job and your employers cloud your view of us. Colgan pilots are the BEST around. We work harder and we get the job done. THAT is why we were bought. We have a business model that creates growth and additional code shares. THAT is why we were bought. We have low operating overhead. THAT is why we were bought. We weren't bought to bust your union or to take away your flying. I have no desire to move to Detroit and fly a jet. Think of all the mainline Northwest guys who lost their jobs when you "took" their flying away. Any of you folks on a list? Grow up.

Ignorance is bliss

 

[Beech Balls]

I think we can only speculate at this point, nobody knows anything about this yet, and it's ridiculous to think this new deal of sorts is a method of screwing us all over.
Our CJC Chief Pilot said a few things along the lines of it being a 'transparent' event. Dot says it's going to give Colgan the opportunity to do what they've always dreamed of, but never had the money for.

And one thing: I seriously doubt the Colgans signed their livelihood, their 30 year family business away to Phil Trenary only to get themselves, and our awesome pilot / fa group screwed royaly. The Colgans aren't stupid: hence the company stability we've all been able to appreciate the last few years. It isn't perfect here, we all know that, but it's quite a bit better than some other places.

FOR NOW: This is just a new corporate owner, that allows us to expand our company with the support of the Pinnacle bank account. Of course things will change, but don't expect too much for the first year.

 

[Beech Balls]

THAT BEING SAID: I am, like most of you, a little worried...

 

[funnyman12]

First of all, i am very open to all options since the purchase. I enjoy working at Colgan. Regarding our current work rules....here are some of the things that already occur here. Low pay for the 2nd year FO's. Pinnacle would not want to lower pay further do to the extreme attrition. If Republic is hiring 1000 pilots I highly doubt they would lower our pay. We are junior manned often. On reserve we have a max of 5 min to return a missed call. Many regionals have a 2 hour reserve, ours is one. We have no commuting policy. many bases have 14 hour duty days with only 5 hours of pay. Also no per diem (ours is 1.35, least in the industry). All this aside I understand that we have been in a different world than other regionals. Things could be a lot better but realistically it would not be wise for Pinnacle to make our work worse. We luckily are in a period were qualified pilots are becoming more difficult to find. Reading these pages of posts tells me that PCL pilots have no idea what being a Colgan pilot is like, and Colgan pilots have no idea what it is like at a public company with contract issues. All options need to be explored. Not rushed and not procrastinated.

 

[ifly34]

No it is not few and far between. Mesa\Freedom, TSA\Gayjet, Mesaba\bigsky, Mesaba's fake BK, NW's fake BK, Pinnacle's threats and attemps at starting a second certificate, the transfer of 700's from ASA to skywest, the transfer or threat to transfer comairs flying to skywest\ASA. Dude, get your head out of the sand. It is going on all around you. So far, I have only heard 9E pilots inviting you into our airline and our seniority list so that WE as a collective group can get the best possible terms for BOTH of us. I have no anger toward Colgan pilots and look forward to sharing a cockpit (not flight deck) with them. Only good things can come from all of us sharing the same list. Not ONE 9E pilot has suggested a staple, and we would not allow that to happen.

We will be growing soon, and we have invited you to be part of that. Lets get together on this. And maybe have a beer someday. The only enemy I have lives in Memphis.

You know what, my apologies. I was thinking larger scale (Lorezo, et al). But I do think there is a difference in the way this is set up compared to Freedom/Go Jets. They were specifically started to do the end round on a contract (my opinion anyway). I'll be honest, I don't know much about the Mesaba/Big Sky issue or the current/latest Comair so I can't comment. If I remember correctly, Pinnacle has been searching for another certificate since 2004. Prior to the amendable date of the CBA. I think that was to get around the deal NW stuck you with (cannot feed other carriers) not to get around you. Isn't Skywest a straight purchase not from holding company (sorry, lacking knowledge on that one too)?

You are right though. We are all going to be growing. Whether Colgan is union or not. We are both going to grow. I think there is to much positive in this deal if it is taken as they say it is. There is more potential for profit (and benefit for both pilot groups) if both airlines grow separately than if PT were to sprout horns (from a Colgan point of view) and then use it solely for the purpose of contract negotiation leverage. There are far cheaper airlines/certificates he could have bought to do that with.

I think both sides of this are somewhat together on this though. I think the Pinnacle side has more of the "glass is half empty" and the Colgan side is more the "glass is half full". I think it is somewhat natural for the Pinnacle pilots to be more pessimistic about the deal just because of the timing. I would probably be more pessimistic if I were in negotiations of a contract that has been amendable for almost two years myself. Myself (and some of the Colgan pilots) are just taking a "wait and see". We are going to give PT the benefit of the doubt and let him prove himself either way.

In the meantime, when we finally get together for a beer, I'll buy the first round. Welcome to all at Pinnacle.

 

[redflyer65]

When you get beat down daily, there is no "glass half full". I'm sorry that PCL management will mess with your world. It's coming.

 

[Lear70]

I think both sides of this are somewhat together on this though. I think the Pinnacle side has more of the "glass is half empty" and the Colgan side is more the "glass is half full".

Yeah, but half of WHAT?

I think it is somewhat natural for the Pinnacle pilots to be more pessimistic about the deal just because of the timing. I would probably be more pessimistic if I were in negotiations of a contract that has been amendable for almost two years myself.

Double that.

Myself (and some of the Colgan pilots) are just taking a "wait and see". We are going to give PT the benefit of the doubt and let him prove himself either way.

Good luck with that...

In the meantime, when we finally get together for a beer, I'll buy the first round. Welcome to all at Pinnacle.

I've eaten my words before, even recently lost a bet, and have to pay up here shortly by buying a LOT of beer in MEM, but I'm HAPPY to do so because it meant good things for the PCL pilots.

However, I'm right about Nonconnah more often than wrong, as far as track records go (this is the first time I can remember having to own up on a bet regarding PCL / NWA management).

So I've got 2nd round, and I SINCERELY hope you all fare better in the long run than my experience leads me to believe.

:beer:

 

[XJohXJ]

A strange thing that CEOs do is to try and make money for the corp and stakeholders. More unusual that they make large corporate plans just to screw a pilot group. My opinion: he may not be going out of his way to give you what you want, but I don't think he is going out of his way to break your group.

Airlines have spent millions upon millions of dollars for the sole purpose of breaking union labor. $20 Million is nothing to them.

 

[ifly34]

Airlines have spent millions upon millions of dollars for the sole purpose of breaking union labor. $20 Million is nothing to them.

And I can't disagree with that. But why wouldn't they purchase another airline for a quarter of the price (or even less) and get the same results?

 

[BirdCatcher]

And I can't disagree with that. But why wouldn't they purchase another airline for a quarter of the price (or even less) and get the same results?

Because what other airline could they buy at about that same price that would instantly create business relationships with 3 other airlines. They just went from NWA to CAL, UA, US overnight.

 

[340SAM]

I hope it works out for all but I am now thinking like some said above "THE COLGANS ARENT STUPID", so maybe with this kind of capital behind them you guys might be in a great position to rule the turbo prop world. Large and Small.

Sam

 

[ifly34]

Because what other airline could they buy at about that same price that would instantly create business relationships with 3 other airlines. They just went from NWA to CAL, UA, US overnight.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[suupah]

First of all, i am very open to all options since the purchase. I enjoy working at Colgan. Regarding our current work rules....here are some of the things that already occur here. Low pay for the 2nd year FO's. Pinnacle would not want to lower pay further do to the extreme attrition. If Republic is hiring 1000 pilots I highly doubt they would lower our pay. We are junior manned often. On reserve we have a max of 5 min to return a missed call. Many regionals have a 2 hour reserve, ours is one. We have no commuting policy. many bases have 14 hour duty days with only 5 hours of pay. Also no per diem (ours is 1.35, least in the industry). All this aside I understand that we have been in a different world than other regionals. Things could be a lot better but realistically it would not be wise for Pinnacle to make our work worse. We luckily are in a period were qualified pilots are becoming more difficult to find. Reading these pages of posts tells me that PCL pilots have no idea what being a Colgan pilot is like, and Colgan pilots have no idea what it is like at a public company with contract issues. All options need to be explored. Not rushed and not procrastinated.

They will not lower pay with republic and skywest hiring so fervently. that would be just about suicidal for them.

Our work rules were pretty much bottom of the barrel but to tell you the truth, you don't screwed around with much here. but with out station basing it isn't very easy to exten or junior man someone. When outstation basing is changed it can and probably will be j. man/extension HELL!

 

[Rook]

I have no desire to move to Detroit and fly a jet. quote]

You could always commute. No wait a second, no you can't.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

Vector,

I think a secondary reason might be the Saab certificate. It will be very easy to relieve Mesaba of some of their routes when Pinnacle Corp. has a Saab certificate.

Uh, let me see ... NWA has agreed to purchase Mesaba. "Very easy to relieve ..?" - please explain.

 

[redflyer65]

Here the deal. It's just speculation, but Mesaba just signed a new contract in bankruptcy that has nice snap back provisions if they receive a certain number of planes. They are poised to get a batch of ERJ's and/or CRJ's. Move the Saab flying over to Colgan slow so that the snap back provisions never get paid out, and the Saab feed stays under a Airlink partner.

Like I said, it's just speculation but a possible scenerio none the less.

This purchase of a NON-union carrier by this management group is a huge red flag.

 

[beechcowboy]

Whassa matter? AWAC didn't work out either? You were a crying biatch when you were here, not much has changed. A commercial ticket and 3 airline ground schools and you still don't know the purpose of the MEL. Feel free not to check back. But if you do, can you post the exact reference in your contract where ALPA limits the number of MELs on the aircraft?

I know who you speak of, but I never went to AWAC. I never interviewed at AWAC. It was never in my plans. You obviously have the wrong person in mind. The fact that you can respond to well intentioned post with this kind of garbage show just how concerned we should all be about our futures. I still have buddies at Colgan; and though I am very glad to be gone, it is still a part of my career history and I hate to see a group of good pilots placed in a bad positions. Because Colgan's labor is cheaper than others, and because Colgan is non-union, I would suspect there is a play to me made by PCL management. I would just hate to see more discontent created by union versus non-union. By having all our pilot groups in ALPA, we can weaken a valuable management tool, using non-union labor to undercut the union labor. Give it some thought, it is good for everyone to consolidate our voice.

 

[beechcowboy]

Beechcowboy you are a sellout. Why would you leave that close to upgrade? You are obviously a moron. PIC time is what is important. I think the problem is there is nobody in this company who has the balls to stand up and talk union stuff. It would be very interesting to see union talk start around here. I just don't see it happening without some serious outside intervention. We all need to be informed big time as well and not just through flight info. If a vote would happen today I bet the union would be turned down. I don't know if ALPA plans on approaching us somehow and at the same time majorly informing us but that is the way to go. Posting stuff on flight info and threatening us that we will be the next GO jets isn't going to work with this pilot group. We didnt ask for this crap. Most of us think who the hell cares change won't happen that quick and by the time it does we will have moved on. So if there is anyone out there who is really serious about this you better start moving now and find a way to educuate us all quickly.

Let me take these one by one. I left b/c Colgan was hosing me, in addition to other personal issues. Colgan chose to continue to change the requirements for upgrade on a monthly basis. Upgrade became a moving target at the will of management. Eventually they skipped my # and went to a less senior pilot for upgrade, admitted they shouldn't have done it, and refused to correct their error. The next month several more senior FOs, who had completed pay for training programs, finally reached what management determined was an acceptable amount of total time 1700 hrs, versus the 2100 hours they were holding me and others to. They were scheduled for upgrade over the next two months. The quality of life was poor, about to get worse, and I decided to say no.

As for threats, there are not threats. The facts are simple, Colgan remains a non-union carrier. We all know from experience that non-union carriers are a favorite management tool used to whipsaw one pilot group against another. Nobody can truly prosper from such games. Join 1000s of other ALPA pilots in an attempt to create one voice for our futures. There are many issues that need to be addressed other than whipsaw games and consolidations. United we are in a better position to address all of these challenges. It may not happen today, tomorrow, or next month; but I am sure PCL managment will utilize Colgan in some way, shape, or form to influence negotiations on Pinnacle's contract. Its BS, and it can happen to you. Are you your brother's keeper, or not? Get in the game and be a player. Don't assume that just because your goal is to use Colgan as a stepping stone, that others might not want to remain there. Don't assume that your desire for quick movement should exonerate you from being an active participant in improving your profession. You may leave Colgan behind next month, but what of your buddies who are left behind, who choose to stay, or who are not ready to go yet? Are you doing everything you can to be a good ambassador to our profession.

I'm no sellout. I enjoy my job, I enjoy the company, and I am engaged in the game, for better or worse. I'm not standing on the sidelines, are you?

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

Let me take these one by one. I left b/c Colgan was hosing me, in addition to other personal issues. Colgan chose to continue to change the requirements for upgrade on a monthly basis. Upgrade became a moving target at the will of management. Eventually they skipped my # and went to a less senior pilot for upgrade, admitted they shouldn't have done it, and refused to correct their error. The next month several more senior FOs, who had completed pay for training programs, finally reached what management determined was an acceptable amount of total time 1700 hrs, versus the 2100 hours they were holding me and others to. They were scheduled for upgrade over the next two months. The quality of life was poor, about to get worse, and I decided to say no.

As for threats, there are not threats. The facts are simple, Colgan remains a non-union carrier. We all know from experience that non-union carriers are a favorite management tool used to whipsaw one pilot group against another. Nobody can truly prosper from such games. Join 1000s of other ALPA pilots in an attempt to create one voice for our futures. There are many issues that need to be addressed other than whipsaw games and consolidations. United we are in a better position to address all of these challenges. It may not happen today, tomorrow, or next month; but I am sure PCL managment will utilize Colgan in some way, shape, or form to influence negotiations on Pinnacle's contract. Its BS, and it can happen to you. Are you your brother's keeper, or not? Get in the game and be a player. Don't assume that just because your goal is to use Colgan as a stepping stone, that others might not want to remain there. Don't assume that your desire for quick movement should exonerate you from being an active participant in improving your profession. You may leave Colgan behind next month, but what of your buddies who are left behind, who choose to stay, or who are not ready to go yet? Are you doing everything you can to be a good ambassador to our profession.

I'm no sellout. I enjoy my job, I enjoy the company, and I am engaged in the game, for better or worse. I'm not standing on the sidelines, are you?

Yes I am standing on the sidelines as many of my fellow soilders are at Colgan. We don't know what the hell is going on. We are quite sick of Pinnacle pilots infiltrating our posts. We were very happy in our misery before you union talking annoying people came along. It's very simple if they intend to keep us seperate we don't give a crap about pinnacles pilot group and union. If they intend to use us in some way to screw the pinnacle pilots then yeah we will listen about this foreign to us union stuff. Until we see something change in our everyday lives however we don't care.