Pinnacle Air Services

[FL410guy]

Sorry if this is repetitive, I just don't have the time to read this entire tread to get the answer I'm looking for.

Concerning this whole new perdiem that is going to happen with jetride. Which by the way will happen no matter what is said here. Opinions here doesn't hold much water. I know we are going to the debit card system that PA is now doing. Question is will we recieve the $50 a day rate on top of the $141 per diem rate?

Can a PA pilot confirm you are getting $50 on top of you $141 per diem rate? If so this would not be such a bad deal after all. Thanks

 

[macpilot]

I am Springdale based and have not heard of the debit card yet. Since I have started working here for over a year, we have always gotten the $141 (low rate) for per diem ( it covers hotel and meals). Additionaly you will get $50. The 50 is called day pay, it's given each time you spend the night away from home. Or for the ASG based crew it can also be anytime the flight goes beyond midnight.

However I have heard the 2 weeks on/off crews complain they don't get the day pay on their travel days. If you have any more questons or need clarificaton, please pm me or post it and I will be happy to ask Richard or Nelson for you.

I would like to know that if we do get the debit cards, will we still be able to keep the extra per diem $$$? not sure how that would work. Personaly I like to use my own credit card and get the airline miles. Maybe they will let us have the option.

I am curious to know how many of the jetride guys are going to accept the PA employment offer, and where are the jet ride planes bassed? It seems the JR guys know more about what going on that the PA pilots. But maybe thats just me.

 

[CFI4LIFE]

Far as I know alomst all JR pilots accepted the offer. A couple left for better jobs, but I'm not sure that was related in any way to this merger. We have planes based in Lancaster, PA, Bedford (I think, a 35), Birmingham, Dallas, Chicago, St Louis, Scottsdale, and Columbus. Had a 60 based in Ontario, CA and Columbus, but those are in prebuy now (as well as one in LNS) and the plan is to get replacement birds at those locations... priority being ONT. I think that is pretty accurate, anyone care to add?

 

[FL410guy]

I'm pretty sure you will be able to keep the extra dollars you don't use. I don't think thats a problem. I agree with you on using airline credit cards, that's the smart thing todo. It just that JR is talking up this whole perdiem debit card thing and hasn't mentioned the 50$ day rate. I'm going to mention this to management and see where it goes. Thanks

 

[TennLear60]

We get day pay for every day we are gone. Even travel days. It is paid to us in addition to our salary not with our per-diem. Haven't heard anything from our office about the "per-diem card" yet. I still get my per-diem by check in the mail.

 

[MNR]

I believe the extra $50 is basicly extra salery right? Its taxed etc. My guess is in the short term you will continue to get what you are getting now. In the long term they want to make things the same on both sides. Per diem as far as the PN guys would not change a whole lot except you would get a card which you could use at ATMs to pull the money out. Intead of sending you a check. So basicly its yours to do with how you please once its on the card from what I have been told. The per diem thing would affect us a bunch. Which is why I was asking about it. I am suprised more people from PN are not asking about changes that might come their way. If any of the PN pilot want to talk over the phone btw pm me and we can coordinate a time to talk.

None of the JR crews get extra pay for days they work unless they start a 2 week rotation early of finish it late. We swap on Tuesday/Wednesday so if your on a trip and it goes over JR pilots get $300 per day you are over or $300 a day if you come on early for a trip. The other option is to be swapped out on the airlines.

As far as the card goes it sounds like they are still working on the details. Most of the crews on the JR side have a different rotation than the PN crews (2 weeks on/1 week off). If I do an out and back day trip I currently get per diem ($36/$46) under the new system I would get nothing because I did not stay over night. I think PN crews would get $10 per meal period. They are trying to make the system scaleable i.e. will it work with 500 pilots, so the $10 per meal becomes more difficult to manage. They may do $141 for overnight days and $45 or something similar for day trips or for the last day of a multiple day trip (if you look at the IRS chart they are using the breakdown for low cities is $141 which equals $96 lodging and $45 Meal and incidentals) Its all still up in the air so we will see what they decide to do.

FL410guy, your right to a certain extent opinions expressed here don't mean much but by talking to PN crews here I can get information that allows me to make informed well rounded arguements for or againist certain policies that might be implimented by JR management. I think I have been able to make some good points to the DO about the per diem card because of the discussion here. Those things may or may not influence their decisions, we will see.

macpilot The JR guys know more than you because I think the JR management is doing a good job of keeping us in the loop. They have had 4 or 5 conference calls where pilots could call in and ask the DO, CP or VP questions and have them answered. I don't know about PN management but it sounds like the PN pilots might not be getting that kind of chance to interact with your CP and DO.

CFI4LIFE is correct about the bases, the bases that lost aircraft had managed aircraft. They do want to replace those first. They then would like to increase the number of aircraft at each base. Then possibily have more bases.

 

[FL410guy]

MNR I agree %100. We need to get informed with some constructive arguements and present them to management. From my knowledge there has been 0 talk about the 50$ the PN guys are receiving. We need to bring that up to our DO asap before they settle on a deal. That could be an extra 700bucks in my pocket every month. Let's get the word out.

 

[CFI4LIFE]

I have been told, and you know how that goes, but I was told that the 50 dollar day pay was kind of an offset to the lower salary the Pinnacle guys made. Kind of a way to raise income a little bit. Don't ask me why, just what I heard. It's probably just bad intel though. Can any of the Pinnacle guys comment on vacations, can you carry over time not used or get paid out each year for it? How bout holiday pay? Overtime (flying on a day off). You're schedule and crew swaps? I know a couple planes fly on a two week rotation with no real base, what about the rest? Also, they are saying we (JR) are going to switch to actually pilot monkey suits... do you have a vendor for those or just use any pilot shop? Also, heard we are going to have to cover the costs.. which blows since I have et to pay for a single uniform item that we currently wear. Anyway, just a few random thoughts that I had..

Have you all been keeping pretty busy?? JR or Pinnacle guys feel free to chime in. Just trying to get a feel for how things have been going.

 

[macpilot]

That dosent sound right to me because it's not fare to the ASG bassed crew, we only do a fraction of the overnights the 2 weeks on/off pilots do.

you get 100 for flying on your day off, there is holiday pay, unable to carry over vacation time. Uniforms come from "Tally Ho" in miami. It's 20 per paycheck untill it's paid off, all alterations, or repalcement uniforms are covered.

 

[starcheckdriver]

you get 100 for flying on your day off, there is holiday pay, unable to carry over vacation time. Uniforms come from "Tally Ho" in miami. It's 20 per paycheck untill it's paid off, all alterations, or repalcement uniforms are covered.

$100 for flying a day off! That's crap. JR PICs get $300 and the SICs get $250 for flying on days off. It is crap that you pay for uniforms too. How many paychecks does it take to pay for them at $20 a paycheck?

 

[CFI4LIFE]

Yeah, 100 bucks a day is what I heard too. I thought no F*ing way!! Guess it is true. I can tell you this much, don't EVER expect me to fly on a day off again.. it's just not worth my time off. They can airline me home and bring another crew out. This of course after we are all operating under the same sop's. From my knowledge we will continue to follow our guidelines for the time being. So if you guys at JR want to make same extra money I'd say do it sooner rather than later!

 

[FL410guy]

That dosent sound right to me because it's not fare to the ASG bassed crew, we only do a fraction of the overnights the 2 weeks on/off pilots do.

you get 100 for flying on your day off, there is holiday pay, unable to carry over vacation time. Uniforms come from "Tally Ho" in miami. It's 20 per paycheck untill it's paid off, all alterations, or repalcement uniforms are covered.

That is truly a sad sad deal. $100 to work on a day off. Here's what you do... SAY NO!!! Don't fly trips for that chump change. Unless you are just have dollars coming out of your ears. If you need over time go do some contract work for $600 a day. After a while they will bump it up or the they will find themselvs understaffed. We get $300 which is very reasonalbe. It used to be $175 but peeps denied overtime and thought time off was more important than a lousy 175 bucks. Grow a pair and so no.

Also, if that 50 is just an offset for the lower salary... then get ready and say good bye to the $50 dollar day pay.

 

[MNR]

Here is one thing to remember for both PN and JR crews. JR was not alot of fun to work at when I first started. The mngt team had a very low opinion of a pilots worth and treated u you as such. Our attrition rate was terriable. The old mngt punched out DO, CP, VP and his assistant and the new mngt came in. This includes the current Jetride DO and CP as well as the current VP for Jetride who is now the boss for both JR and PN. They have done a great job imho of turing around pilot morale. The PN crews can make up their own minds about it but I think most of the JR pilots would agree with me about the overall improvement in the QOL at Jetride over the last year. In the long run these things like debit cards, per diem and uniforms will get worked out and if past performance from the current VP equals future results I think the future combined company will be a decent place to work.

 

[macpilot]

I agree

 

[JJET44]

Yeah, 100 bucks a day is what I heard too. I thought no F*ing way!! Guess it is true. I can tell you this much, don't EVER expect me to fly on a day off again.. it's just not worth my time off. They can airline me home and bring another crew out. This of course after we are all operating under the same sop's. From my knowledge we will continue to follow our guidelines for the time being. So if you guys at JR want to make same extra money I'd say do it sooner rather than later!

Right on brother.

It's gona be next to impossible to get anyone on JR to work OT now.
When asked to work OT we must respectfully decline and LET THEM KNOW WHY!! VERY IMPORTANT AND We'll get our 300 bones a day back quickly.
BUT IT'S EXTREAMLY CRUCIAL THAT EVERYONE DOES THIS OR IT'S NOT GONA WORK.

 

[CFI4LIFE]

I may have jumped the gun a bit on my comments about the overtime pay. MNR is right on the money with his comments about the "Old" JR vs the current JR. Things have gotten better, and we have not been informed that our pay system will be changing at all, maybe our policy will be adopted by Pinnacle and no one will have to refuse extra work. I have a tremendous amount of respect in our current mangagement, and I certainly don't mind helping out if its worth my time. Though 300 bucks is less than the daily rate of a contract pilot, it is better than what we were getting before, and much better than what Pinnacle offers. But if they do try to put us at a $100 daily rate then JJett, I'm with you!

 

[MNR]

ummm, I think you are all jumping the gun a bit here. The way I read it one of the PN guys was saying they get $100 a day for overtime. Nowhere in the thread did somone from JR say they heard we were going to $100 a day for OT. Re-read the last couple pages. The only things I hear are changeing in the near future at JR are uniforms and per-diem. Last I talked to JR's DO it wasen't even set in stone about JR guys having to pay for the uniforms. Only thing for sure is we are going to uniforms for sure.

Long term changes are all just mngt thinking out loud at this point. I know they would like to consolidate the fleet to have some consistancy in types i.e. lose the LR55s and replace with LR60s etc. They will eventually want to have some flow through between the cirtificates. Possibily move managed or 10+ seat aircraft to one cirt or the other etc. Its all rumor at this point however.

 

[JJET44]

MNR

I understand that it wasn't mentioned but how do you, Pinnacle Group, justify paying Jetride pilots $300 a day OT and Pinnacle pilots only $100?

They brought the PCL pilot salary up to match JR's. Why wouldn't they aliegn OT?

 

[Downwind]

I have yet to see a pay increase at Pinnacle. I'm not real sure what you guys mean by this. The only change we have seen has been the benefits package which added vision, long and short disability, FSP, DCA, and some matching 401K.

I have spoken over the phone with a couple of JR guys over the per diem issue. Frankly, you guys are making way too big of an issue over this. I know uncertanity is not good, but trust us, this will work out to your benefit and put a few extra bills in your pocket.

I really hope Pinnacle adopts the JR policy on aircraft crewing. I think your system works. We need help with this at our LAS base and with an airplane at ASG.

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over the uniforms. The company requires it so you wear it or go else where. Our customers pay top dollar and demand nice aircraft, service, and crews. The uniform is just part of that. If you want to keep wearing polos then get a corporate or freight job. If JR guys do have to pay, don't worry. $26 a month isn't much plus it's all tax deductable.

I also wish Pinnacle would adopt the JR concept of communication. Every JR guy I talk to mentions the weekly email or teleconference with the DO or CP. I get 95% of my info here on flightinfo. Pinnacle really needs to keep their people (PA and JR) in the loop.

I know PA mgnt reads this board. Remember, an involved employee group feels needed and appreciated, and will return in kind to the company.

I look forward to meeting more JR folks and hope we can hook up on the road.

Downwind

 

[starcheckdriver]

I have spoken over the phone with a couple of JR guys over the per diem issue. Frankly, you guys are making way too big of an issue over this.......I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over the uniforms. The company requires it so you wear it or go else where. Our customers pay top dollar and demand nice aircraft, service, and crews. The uniform is just part of that. If you want to keep wearing polos then get a corporate or freight job. If JR guys do have to pay, don't worry. $26 a month isn't much plus it's all tax deductable.

Downwind

Downwind,

The per diem system JR proposed is problematic for many different reasons. The main reason is the per diem debit card. It has no Visa or Matercard logo and because of that it cannot be used to pay for a hotel room or meals. The only way to get your money is through an ATM or Point-of-Sale location like Walmart or the grocery store. Then you must go to your bank and deposit the cash you withdrew to pay your personal credit card bill for the hotel and meals on a trip.

Beyond that, I don't see how you make money or even break even on $141 a day. Are you one of the Pinnacle pilots that seeks out the Motel 6 and Super 8 on overnights? JR routinely books us in $99 a night rooms that comes to $110 after taxes. That leaves me with $31 a day for meals. Who can eat on $31 a day without going the fast food route?

As far as uniforms. I agree, wear it or leave the company. But, I also think they company buys them, or pilots leave the company. JR pilots wear a uniform now. It is charcoal colored, suit quality pants. We wear an oxford button down white shirt and a tie. Essentially, we wear a business suit without the jacket. IMHO, it looks more professional than any standard pilot uniform in the aviation world. Where did you get the idea we wear polos?

Lastly, if the company is going to mandate uniforms of their choice and their uniform provider; they need to pay for them. Otherwise, they need to let me select where to buy the uniforms. JR pays for our uniforms now and it is only ethical and right that that process continues.

 

[Downwind]

I don't know anything about a debit card nor have I heard anything about it from PA. I put everything on my card, collect the miles, and pay the bill with the per diem check. Anything outside of that I have no knowledge of.

I have stayed at a motel 6 twice this year. Days Inn, Comfort Suites, Fairfield, Holiday Inn, Redroof, Marriott, just about all. Some towns have Marriott and some have Chavez Inn. Where are you guys flying? IAH-JFK? LAX-ORD? We sometimes wind up in the most remote places with very little choices. Sometimes HoJo is as good as it gets. Sometimes better. I don't see the big appeal of Marriott. $99 for the room, plus 10 for internet, plus 15 for breakfast. Fairfield averages 69 for the room with internet and breakfast. With breakfast paid, lunch sometimes not possible, and dinner at 15, that's 40 in your pocket. Times 15. 600 in two weeks. Or add in lunch and total 120. That 20 to pocket times 15 and you bank 300. But to each their own. I challenge you to find one PA pilot that is losing money on our system.

I'm not saying the uniform issue is right or wrong, but it is how it is. I know some airline pilots who purchase their own uniforms, and from a lot lower salary. What is the company going to do with tailored unifiorms after you leave? Would you want to wear someone elses clothes?

Don't let the fear of the unknown cloud your mind too much. PA is a good place that is only going to get better. We're glad to have you guys onboard and look forward to working with ya. I'd say the majority of the pilots here are glad to be here. Not all. But when have you ever known pilots not to bitch.

Downwind

 

[MNR]

I understand that it wasn't mentioned but how do you, Pinnacle Group, justify paying Jetride pilots $300 a day OT and Pinnacle pilots only $100?

I'm just a JR pilot but if I were Pinnacle group I would bump it up to $300 across the board not lower it across the board. I was just saying that the current mngt has worked to make things better at JR my guess is that they will try to do the same across the board.

 

[MNR]

Downwind, It sounds to me like you're ok with compromising your QOL for extra dollars. I'm not. I certainly don't think I should plan on skipping lunch just so I can pocket a couple extra bucks. Thats fine under the proposed new system you and I can decide to stay where we like and you can decide to not eat. But, i certainly do not think it will put "a few extra bills in my pocket" and frankly I don't believe that is what per diem should be for. If I come out ahead great, but I am quite happy if I break even at the end of the day. If guys at PN are going to quit because they won't get their extra from per diem then maybe they should ask to be paid more to fly airplanes.

I will stress about these things because I want to know what going on. I will ask all sorts of questions and give mngt my input because thats the culture they have been attempting to foster at Jetride.

What I find interesting is that the company it putting forth this system in the effort to "save paperwork" At this point the only thing it gets rid of is me putting in for per diem (I guess it will be figured automatically) and no hotel reciepts to turn in. Were still going to do everything else and turn in all the other reciepts. I think at first the JR mngt thought they would not have to reimburse for tips or transportation either. Then they heard about captain's cash and how you guys pay for tip, taxis etc. The system PN uses currently is no less paperwork intensive than what JR uses. The only other reason I see to go to the PN way of doing per diem is so they can predict costs better.

Uniforms, if I was paid less at some other airline why would I want to pay for uniforms. This career is slowly becomeing a place people decide to leave because pilots do not value themselves enough. They work for peanuts or worse pay for their jobs, get stepped on, treated like dirt and then say "oh, thats ok at least I got to fly an airplane today." please. Bottom line is Airnet/Jetride has always given an allowance per year or paid for uniforms. We are not running around polo's btw. They don't want the stuff back because it wears out. I would hope that we would continue to get them paid for. If we don't then I will be on the phone again.

Lastly, did you ever think that maybe the reason you have staffing problems at PN is because of how they were doing things there? No communication, pay for your uniforms, $100 a day for overtime. In the long run people will vote with their feet. They will leave or more likely will look at the offer on the table aand decide they would rather not work at such a place. I think that is the biggest concern for Jetride pilots we have had it pretty good the last year or so. I think that most of the guys would agree with me about wanting it to stay that way. The DO at JR has even told me in the past they want Jetride to be a place where people will decide to stay long term, maybe retire from etc. The VP has assured us and told me personally that he is interested in maintaining current status quo or even maybe improve on the QOL If we however do not let them know when thing start to slip then they can't fix it.

 

[slickmagneto]

Let's see if we can set things straight. Pinnacle bought Jetride.(NOT MERGED). He who has the gold makes the rules. Pinnacle has the gold thus gets to makes the rules. If you don't like the rules you can go somewhere else. Looks plain and simple to me. And I'll bet a weeks salary that the day you tell Nelson your not going to work will be your last day. Trust me that I'm for better working conditions for all parties but I can tell you that you are playing with a loaded gun.

 

[MNR]

Kinda makes my point for me. Nelson's way of doing things is alot different from how things are done at Jetride. At least that is what I have heard from other PN pilots and what you seem to be indicateing above.

The guys who do have the gold do certainly make the rules (which is why we are all getting uniforms) They also could have put Nelson into VP position, they went with Wynn instead.

The culture at Jetride is such that I will actually call in the day before my 2 weeks starts and let them know I am avaiable if a trip comes up thats going to go over into my rotation. Yes, the extra $300 is nice if I start a day early. I do it also just because it helps the company out. They scratch my back I scratch theirs.

If the current culture at Jetride changes to mimic something similar to what I percieve goes on at Pinnacle (I could absolutely be wrong with my perception btw) Then I believe I can safely say that some Jetride pilots will go elsewhere. With Wynn at the helm I do not think that will happen. Only time will tell however.

 

[starcheckdriver]

And I'll bet a weeks salary that the day you tell Nelson your not going to work will be your last day.

What do you mean by this? Does this mean calling in sick and being asked to work on a day off? If that is the case, Nelson should be fired and get a swift kick in the a$$ on his way out the door.

If you are refering to people not working for dumb reasons or refusing flights for stupid reasons, then Nelson is doing a good job. I speak for myself when I say, I won't work when I am sick and I won't work on hard days off unless they are paying me the $250 a day. Flying when sick is not safe, pure and simple. It is also not fair to my Captain who will most likely get sick from being stuffed in a cockpit with me.

Our JR pilots work hard enough on their days on and are gone so much during their on-time that asking to work a day off is only acceptable if the overtime pay is offered.

It is also my understanding that going forward, JR pilots are only taking orders from our DO and CP and Pinnacle pilots from theirs. Maybe in the future, if and when the certificates merge, JR pilots will take orders from Nelson. But, it will be a cold day in hell if he expects people to work when sick or on a day off without overtime pay.

 

[JJET44]

Let's see if we can set things straight. Pinnacle bought Jetride.(NOT MERGED). He who has the gold makes the rules. Pinnacle has the gold thus gets to makes the rules. If you don't like the rules you can go somewhere else. Looks plain and simple to me. And I'll bet a weeks salary that the day you tell Nelson your not going to work will be your last day. Trust me that I'm for better working conditions for all parties but I can tell you that you are playing with a loaded gun.

Nevermind, it's not worth it

 

[slickmagneto]

Here is one thing to remember for both PN and JR crews. JR was not alot of fun to work at when I first started. The mngt team had a very low opinion of a pilots worth and treated u you as such. Our attrition rate was terriable. The old mngt punched out DO, CP, VP and his assistant and the new mngt came in. This includes the current Jetride DO and CP as well as the current VP for Jetride who is now the boss for both JR and PN. They have done a great job imho of turing around pilot morale. The PN crews can make up their own minds about it but I think most of the JR pilots would agree with me about the overall improvement in the QOL at Jetride over the last year. In the long run these things like debit cards, per diem and uniforms will get worked out and if past performance from the current VP equals future results I think the future combined company will be a decent place to work.

Pinnacle lost a lot of people in the early days and things eventually changed. There is plenty of room for improvement now. Making threats and playing the "I'm sick" card will only work once. It appears from all the positive comments that the addition of Mr. Wynn will be a great asset to the combined companies and the pilot group. It's too early to judge anything or anybody. Everyone needs to sit back and wait. I'm sure that in the end it's going to be a great place to work for all those who wish to ride it out.

 

[TennLear60]

Let's see if we can set things straight. Pinnacle bought Jetride.(NOT MERGED). He who has the gold makes the rules. Pinnacle has the gold thus gets to makes the rules. If you don't like the rules you can go somewhere else. Looks plain and simple to me. And I'll bet a weeks salary that the day you tell Nelson your not going to work will be your last day. Trust me that I'm for better working conditions for all parties but I can tell you that you are playing with a loaded gun.

Wow! I'm...speechless.

 

[slickmagneto]

Wow! I'm...speechless.

I doubt that! And you know I know you know I know.