Pink Slips - Do CFI and Mechanic Failures Count

[rettofly]

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

In your capacity as a DPE, have you ever administered a CFI ride of any kind to an applicant who didn't hold a pilot certificate with ratings appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft used for the ride?

If I were a student selecting an instructor, I would want him or her to be a certificated pilot.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

In your capacity as a DPE, have you ever administered a CFI ride of any kind to an applicant who didn't hold a pilot certificate with ratings appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft used for the ride?

If I were a student selecting an instructor, I would want him or her to be a certificated pilot.

No, because anyone going for a CFI add-on, renewal, initial or reinstatement ride must be qualified in category and class. Of course, type does not apply.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Thanks for your input UndauntedFlyer. Before the Colgan accident many airlines hired pilots with multiple failures early in their aviation careers in which included part 121 airlines and was not a big thing. I fly for a large 121 cargo airline, I also flew for a 121 regional airline, I also had multiple failures 30 years ago for bull...t like not checking the examiner's door to make sure it was locked on my commercial checkride, on my instrument checkride the examiner did not hear me yell i got the runway in sight and leaving the mda on a circling approach. I know many pilots personally at the legacies with multiple failures. This situation is like all the other situations in which it will pass with time. I also have many friends who never flew for a regional because the pay is poor so I truly believe when the various airlines cannot find enough pilots they will hire what they can for the money they pay. For all smart arses out there, if you check all the legacy accident records in the United States you will find very few flight crews who did not fail any checkrides but the reason the plane crashed they were flying was pilot error. I guess they failed the that last checkride! May all your landings be happy ones.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, poor CFI prep for tests, cheap shot failures by the DPE's and the FAA not allowing any repeats on anything. Part 121 checks allow repeats, but not Part61/141 rides. Many careers are being ruined by training and checking that is unfair for many reasons.

 

[kmox29]

Currently, CFI failures will not show up in a PRIA request. However, if the company which was hiring you wanted to submit a FOIA request, they would be able to see that you failed a CFI checkride.

HR 5900 will change all of this. When the pilot records section becomes effective, ALL failed checkrides (yes, even the Private Pilot) will be available to the carrier, without submitting a FOIA request.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, poor CFI prep for tests, cheap shot failures by the DPE's and the FAA not allowing any repeats on anything. Part 121 checks allow repeats, but not Part61/141 rides. Many careers are being ruined by training and checking that is unfair for many reasons.

Good pilots do fail check rides. But good pilots also say to themselves (and others) I screwed up; I had a bad day; I wasn't prepared; it was my fault and I will fix it.

Dangerous pilots blame everyone else for their failures. It is this attitude, more than the individual failures, that causes me concern.

I also call B.S. as DPEs generally don't bust applicants by cheap shots, nor for a single minor oversight, unless it is specifically listed in the PTS. But, in that case you should friggin' know it. I've had a couple of rides either by a fed or with a fed observing when I totally stepped on my d**k. But I continued on to give a stellar ride otherwise. The fed/DPE saw the f'up for what it was, looked at the entire performance, saw I had my s**t together and I passed.

I'll even give you that you may have run across a hard-nosed DPE or two. But, generally, these people have a reputation as such. You seem to be plagued by such people.

 

[J.Otto]

141 failure?

Currently, CFI failures will not show up in a PRIA request. However, if the company which was hiring you wanted to submit a FOIA request, they would be able to see that you failed a CFI checkride.

HR 5900 will change all of this. When the pilot records section becomes effective, ALL failed checkrides (yes, even the Private Pilot) will be available to the carrier, without submitting a FOIA request.

What about a prior 141 failure?

I forget how that applies here. Lets say you go for your CFI checkride (at a 141 mill) and you botch something. They tell you to go back up with your instructor and come back the next day to retake it.

Is this a documented failure like you might receive if you went to the FSDO for your CFI ride?

IIRC, it is not a failure like the 61 ride. BUT will it show up on this FOIA request?

 

[dirkdigler]

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

This was what I heard when I went to OKC for my DPE initial class few years ago.

 

[dirkdigler]

Maybe you misunderstood the reg for 21 years... After a few calls to a few DPE friends, (will call the Orlando fsdo tomorrow , since I am now curious to get an "official" ruling) they ALL say it does reset the clock without an endorsement. But do understand what you are stating. Yet seems there is no reference where i see that an extra endorsement is required, as you state. But now curious what the FSDO says, and if I'm wrong will humbly state you were right and that I learned something new.

Called an old instructor/DPE at the fsdo not the fsdo itself since it's yea as u said it's closed when I posted Hence why I edited my previous post.

Here's the FAA's official answer for this question:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...00/interpretations/data/interps/2008/Levy.pdf

 

[kmox29]

What about a prior 141 failure?

I forget how that applies here. Lets say you go for your CFI checkride (at a 141 mill) and you botch something. They tell you to go back up with your instructor and come back the next day to retake it.

Is this a documented failure like you might receive if you went to the FSDO for your CFI ride?

IIRC, it is not a failure like the 61 ride. BUT will it show up on this FOIA request?

I believe so. What we're talking about here are PTRS reports (insert TPS reports joke here). These are what the FAA uses to show work done (i.e. surveillance, checkrides, etc). Even DPEs and APDs are required to submits PTRS reports to the respective office.

Everyone's airman record shows PTRS activity. Checkrides passed, type ratings issued, CFIs renewed, etc. While these PTRSs do not show up under PRIA, they would show up under FOIA.

The question is: how many companies go the extra step and request a FOIA lookup. I don't know the answer to that.

 

[paid4training]

So in short, if u failed check rides during the "it's a training experience" time you are subject to the "more than x failed" of today so apply to trucking school cause ur toast. Well at least until all the 141 mills put out all the pilots they can and flights are can Elle's because of lack of crew.

I took my first flight in a 152 in oct 1992. During that semester I found out that you had to have 20/20 uncorrected to fly for an airline. So in my infodent 18 yr old decision making process I quit. See, at the time the military was putting out all the pilots and ga had little chance to even get an interview. The military began to put out less pilots and held on the ones they had, thus reducing the pilot pool.

Right now the few schools left are not putting out enough pilots for the coming age 65 retirements. Last year was the lowest start for student pilots in decades. I know, I was an independent flight instructor trying to survive.