Pink Slips - Do CFI and Mechanic Failures Count

UndauntedFlyer

Ease the nose down
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Posts
1,062
Total Time
22,000
Just got an email from another DPE friend with this link from the FAA legal regarding this issue.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...00/interpretations/data/interps/2008/levy.pdf

I humbly admit I was wrong.
Thanks for finding that letter. As DPE's we were told to not specifically endorse for a flight review from a CFI ride because that would require the DPE to provide at least 1 hour of ground instruction and 1 hour of flight instruction and that would be in conflict with the idea of no instruction to be given on a practical test. That's why we were told to write, "All pilot operations checked."
 

Abernathy

Truthiness
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Posts
1,490
Total Time
Lots
I don't see what the problem is with the FAA observing the rides of newhires who have unsat 4+ rides (I don't care what they're for). If anything, it seems responsible. Likely another response to the actions of the pilot who flipped it over in Buffalo pulling back on a stall warning and had...5 busts?

It wouldn't matter anyway, I can't think of any airlines nowadays who would hire someone with 4 busts.
 
Last edited:

ChickenSled

Am I Evil...Yes I Am
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Posts
129
I guess I'm just venting about how unfair this has all become. Good people are having their careers ruined for invalid reasons. A pilot applicant can be rejected for "pink slips" even though he never failed a "pilot checkride."

Unfortunately, some very good people are having their careers ruined by circumstance, i.e., a poorly qualified instructor keeps recommending an applicant who fails his CFI oral repeatedly. That's all it takes now days.
I hate to burst your bubble, but if you have multiple pink slips of any nature, you should not be carrying passengers around and you should choose a different career.

Good people are not having their careers ruined, substandard people are showing up for check rides unprepared and getting pinked. They shouldn't have a career if they aren't willing to show up prepared.

Everybody has a bad day, some guys have 2, some "maybe" three. But when you have 4 pink slips, you display a pattern of:

a) Not knowing what is required of you to pass an examination
b) Not caring what is required of you and expecting a handout
c) Not being capable of performing to a standard that is clearly published

It isn't unfair, it is the way it should be, and it should be stricter.

Nobody is getting their career ruined by "unfair" rules, they are ruining it themselves by showing up for check rides without the preparation, aptitude or ability that is required.

And blaming the instructor is one cheap a$$ cop out. He passed his ride, why can't you?

It's all becoming way too horrible in this career. Good people are toasted for what is sometimes really nothing.
No, bad people are getting weeded out for not showing up prepared for examinations for the above stated reasons.

This guy who crashed the Colgan flight in Buffalo, he wasn't some anathema, he was a poorly trained pilot with little aptitude and no self discipline. If you cant keep your trap shut for 10 minutes to observe sterile cockpit, can't take the effort to watch your airspeed while you are approaching the outer marker and can't drop the nose and put in full power when you get to a pusher situation, you should have never been there.

Your posts are defending people like this.
 
Last edited:

airksk

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Posts
115
Total Time
9000+
If all this is about is having the FAA observe a checkride, who cares? I've had them show up to observe a checkride, both randomly and because they were checking the examiner in the sim. All very professional, honestly forgot they were even there once the checkride started, had other things to concentrate on.

Fact is in this profession you have to get used to the fact that others will observe you. It's really not that big a deal.
 

B52GUNNER

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Posts
164
Total Time
4500
The Feds sit in on checkrides all the time with our airline. I've had them sit in and I have never busted a ride. If you can fly the ride to standards, you don/t have to worry who is sitting in the back. Usually they aren't observing you. they are observing the Check Airman doing the check.
 

silver02ex

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
Posts
251
Total Time
5500+
I hate to burst your bubble, but if you have multiple pink slips of any nature, you should not be carrying passengers around and you should choose a different career.

Good people are not having their careers ruined, substandard people are showing up for check rides unprepared and getting pinked. They shouldn't have a career if they aren't willing to show up prepared.

Everybody has a bad day, some guys have 2, some "maybe" three. But when you have 4 pink slips, you display a pattern of:

a) Not knowing what is required of you to pass an examination
b) Not caring what is required of you and expecting a handout
c) Not being capable of performing to a standard that is clearly published

It isn't unfair, it is the way it should be, and it should be stricter.

Nobody is getting their career ruined by "unfair" rules, they are ruining it themselves by showing up for check rides without the preparation, aptitude or ability that is required.

And blaming the instructor is one cheap a$$ cop out. He passed his ride, why can't you?



No, bad people are getting weeded out for not showing up prepared for examinations for the above stated reasons.

This guy who crashed the Colgan flight in Buffalo, he wasn't some anathema, he was a poorly trained pilot with little aptitude and no self discipline. If you cant keep your trap shut for 10 minutes to observe sterile cockpit, can't take the effort to watch your airspeed while you are approaching the outer marker and can't drop the nose and put in full power when you get to a pusher situation, you should have never been there.

Your posts are defending people like this.
I was thinking the same thing. 1 or 2, I can understand, we all have bad days but 4?
 

A-V-8

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Posts
355
Total Time
7000
I hate to burst your bubble, but if you have multiple pink slips of any nature, you should not be carrying passengers around and you should choose a different career.

Good people are not having their careers ruined, substandard people are showing up for check rides unprepared and getting pinked. They shouldn't have a career if they aren't willing to show up prepared.

Everybody has a bad day, some guys have 2, some "maybe" three. But when you have 4 pink slips, you display a pattern of:

a) Not knowing what is required of you to pass an examination
b) Not caring what is required of you and expecting a handout
c) Not being capable of performing to a standard that is clearly published

It isn't unfair, it is the way it should be, and it should be stricter.

Nobody is getting their career ruined by "unfair" rules, they are ruining it themselves by showing up for check rides without the preparation, aptitude or ability that is required.

And blaming the instructor is one cheap a$$ cop out. He passed his ride, why can't you?



No, bad people are getting weeded out for not showing up prepared for examinations for the above stated reasons.

This guy who crashed the Colgan flight in Buffalo, he wasn't some anathema, he was a poorly trained pilot with little aptitude and no self discipline. If you cant keep your trap shut for 10 minutes to observe sterile cockpit, can't take the effort to watch your airspeed while you are approaching the outer marker and can't drop the nose and put in full power when you get to a pusher situation, you should have never been there.

Your posts are defending people like this.
Interesting points you make.

I failed my oral for my private pilot license. I used the King videos to prep. My instructor did absolutely no prep with me. Not knowing any better I went for my ride. An issue occurred when I presented a weight and balance that had the empty weight example from the ASA prep book. I thought that the weight and balance was a process that you had to show that you had performed. It was actually a document that was unique to the aircraft. How do you justify the responsibility for this falling on my shoulders as opposed to my instructor?

Furthermore another three followed. In the instrument during the partial panel I busted. About an hour before I told my instructor that I was not prepared and would fail during the partial panel. He told me to just pay close attention during that portion of the ride and said you have to go for the ride or go home. Again I was in a hurry and naive. That was at ALL ATPs.

Despite an 80% failure rate at the Ft. Worth FSDO I received my CFI with a commendable rating from the examiner on the first try.

During the CFII I was told by my instructor to placard the NDB inop. so that I wouldn’t have to use it. I was afraid that this act of dishonesty would get me in serious trouble and I didn’t. Sure enough I busted my ride in an NDB holding pattern twice.

In the over 10 years since I have been through a 121 initial and an ATP/Type at a 121 carrier. Countless line checks/fed rides/proficiency checks and check rides.

1.I have not failed a check ride in a level D simulator. I have 2 type ratings
2.I have never scratched a plane
3. I have never been violated
4. All of the times I have been in the Chief Pilots office I walked in to socialize
5. I have never had a letter of investigation
6. I have never hurt a passenger
7. I have never been disciplined at an airline for a non-flying issue such as a tardy.
8. While at a 121 carrier I was a member or the Artesia Country Club.

I would also like to mention that: Just prior to aviation I was a Field Artillery Officer in the United States Army. If you failed 3 or more test in the initial nine month course you were placed on mandatory study hall. About one third off the class was on mandatory study hall by the end of the course. I did not fail a single test. The only branch with higher attrition is Aviation. While in the Army my leadership thought enough of me to make me a HQ XO and then the first HSB XO.

These pink slips represent a small portion of my life and it almost seems unfair that a felon can go get a rape expunged from his record but I can’t go and protest any of my pink slips. There is no legal mechanism by which to fight. I invested a lot of money and time and they were not an issue until some guy with a stack of them crashed a plane. Plenty of guys with perfect records have crashed. The FedEx plane that went down in Japan the same week comes to mind. This incident and the media really changed the path for me but I can’t change the past. Your future is what you make of it. I am making new friends and having a great time. I am still a pilot.

However I will submit my letter of resignation to my employer tomorrow and find something else to do.

Not


Prior to the BUF incident some airlines didn’t even ask about pink slips. Whether or not airlines will receive those records in the future will likely affect whether or not I can get a job at an airline. All of the times I was asked about the failures I was asked about pink slips. They are all in my records. I have a copy of them.


Today I have a letter that explains all of the failures and has images of them. If this a disqualifier then I want to go ahead and disqualify myself from the start as opposed to lying and risking getting fired later. If you have a stack of pink slips trust me it isn’t worth committing suicide. I nearly ended my career by leaving aviation thinking that this was not overcomeable. I was weeks away from the final flight when I got a call that changed my life. I was flying with a total Dbag and wanted nothing more than to tell him that I was too sick to fly with him. I didn’t but it humored me to know that I could have. BTW I started a thread on a non-aviation resume for a pilot. ROV operators usually have a 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off schedule and they make more than pilots. You are probably well qualified and you almost definitely will not get asked about pink slips in the interview.
 

paid4training

Missing my family
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Posts
503
Total Time
enough
I believe there should be a grandfather clause or understanding by the airline that a pink slip event that occurred 10years or 1000 hrs ago shouldn't be an issue. If I was a student today and somehow failed my second check ride I would look for another career field the next day. But 10 years ago if u failed a check ride but passed it on the second try u were fine. Some students I knew were told the pink slip they just received was NOT a big deal and would not affect them long term.
And most good DPE's worth their salt would might be more lenient with a student who was on the pass/fail fence if the examiners knew it would affect their career longterm.

All of this because a captain did not pay attention to airspeed and subsequently couldn't do a simple stall recovery that private pilot students perform on their second lesson. Careers and investments in that career are gone!!!
 
Last edited:

paid4training

Missing my family
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Posts
503
Total Time
enough
Another point, what are you supposed to do if questioned about a failure, pull out a legal intrepation of the FAR's and say it wasn't technically a failure? That would be the shortest interview ever!!!
 

jmreii

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Posts
584
Total Time
11,600
Another take on this subject is the over regulation of this industry with laws, rules, and policies in which are redundant. Its no wonder so many industries make the decision to relocate the investor's business or operations to another country in-order to save the business from regulators/politicians in this country whereas he or she is clueless. Of all the industries in this country in which are over regulated we have thoroughly destroyed the auto industry, general aviation is on the ropes, and the airline industry is next up. The only other industry I can think of making money despite political incompetence is the railroad industry. Next time you travel overseas check out the locals because he or she might be laughing at you not with you!
 

IBNAV8R

Stand-up Philosopher
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Posts
843
Total Time
9:30
" I think that someday the world will be entirely populated with bureaucrats such as yourself because the real people will do away with themselves out of frustration"

Moravia, The Aviator, 1985.
 

ultrarunner

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
4,324
Total Time
10000
Undauntedflyer, I think what you are failing to realize is the FAA has become concerned about "multiple failures". And they should be. They very person PIRA was supposed to protect us from KILLED everyone in Buffalo! Simple as that. That dimwit had a history of multiple failures from EARLY on in his flight training career, up to and including his 121 career.

I don't care what the breakdown is among ratings, certificates, or whatnot that have been busts. Multiple failures are multiple failures.....

Ultra
 

brokeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Posts
2,374
Total Time
1501
the cfi would count as a bust. a cfi is not a cert true, but neither is an instrument or multi engine. a check ride is a check ride.
 

JokerFuel

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Posts
110
Total Time
Good
I wouldn't sweat this. I know you likely allot of stress over this kind of thing, especially if you're currently interviewing or getting ready to interview, but realise that you're not alone. Many people have failures and pink slips. It's all part of learning. If you're at the point in your career where you are interviewing or have been offered conditional employment with a place like AirTran, then you've likely been paying your dues for quite sometime. If you haven't got there yet, I assure you that you will. Honesty is the best policy and a positive attitude will take you all the way in this industry. If you're asked about this and/or any other obstacles you've overcome chalk it up to experience. Spin it as a way that you grew as an aviator. Above all don't sweat it.
 

UndauntedFlyer

Ease the nose down
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Posts
1,062
Total Time
22,000
Part 121 checkrides are very much by the book so what is tested is exactly what is trained. Failures at that level are fairly rare compared to the Part 61/141 world of inconsistent testing among examiners and incomplete training by inexperienced CFI's who are still learning. The Part 61/141 world is the perfect prescription for "pink slips" which are all too common. Unfortunately it's the applicant that pays the price for this situation with his career. Trust me, it's not too hard for an enthusiastic 17-year old to come to his/her test and fail something on the oral that they didn't know they'd be asked about, then to come back and fail the flight for something such as emergency landings or crosswind landings being just not good enough. Then, down the road there are many more opportunities for failure for what are actually very small things. The new items that will fail applicants are are the new ADM, Risk Management decision making. Then just look the the new Special Emphasis areas in the PTS and you will see the subjectivity that is a part of the new tests. It will be a wonder if anyone can make it to a Part 121 interview without multiple failures.

Examiners shall place special emphasis upon areas of aircraft
operations considered critical to flight safety. Among these are:

1. positive aircraft control;
2. procedures for positive exchange of flight controls (who is flying
the airplane);
3. stall/spin awareness;
4. collision avoidance;
5. wake turbulence avoidance;
6. Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO);
7. runway incursion avoidance;
8. controlled flight into terrain (CFIT);
9. aeronautical decision making (ADM);
10. checklist usage; and
11. other areas deemed appropriate to any phase of the practical
 
S

Snapshot

I failed my oral for my private pilot license. I used the King videos to prep....
"I went to my checkride after watching some videos without knowing the materials that are clearly defined in the PTS. My 'buy the ticket instead of earning it' scheme didn't pan out......Must be someone else's fault."
In the instrument during the partial panel I busted. About an hour before I told my instructor that I was not prepared and would fail during the partial panel.That was at ALL ATPs.
"I went to the checkride to verify that I was able to Perform a skill. I knew that I wasn't prepared, but went anyway, hoping that the examiner would violate his integrity and pass me anyway. After all, my check cleared, and my 'buy your ticket instead of earning it' school said it was (wink, wink) no big deal. My scheme didn't work out again."
During the CFII I was told by my instructor to placard the NDB inop. so that I wouldn’t have to use it. I was afraid that this act of dishonesty would get me in serious trouble and I didn’t. Sure enough I busted my ride in an NDB holding pattern twice.
"I showed up for a checkride, knowing I was expected to TEACH a skill I couldn't even PERFORM. My 'buy your ticket instead of earning it' school told me to be dishonest. I respected the examiner and the process enough to not lie about the status of my instruments, but not enough to actually know how to use them. It must be someone else's fault....Apparently, after insulting the examiner and process once, Instead of learning how to perform the task, I failed again.................for the same thing?


So. Now, as a result of your failed attempts to take short cuts early in your career, you now may face extra scrutiny. That's what you've actually earned while trying to buy your way to the top.


However I will submit my letter of resignation to my employer tomorrow and find something else to do.....If you have a stack of pink slips trust me it isn’t worth committing suicide.
Yeah, Nobody is asking you to. Take a deep breath. It's an extra guy sitting in the sim when you're a new hire. Suck it up.
 
Last edited:
S

Snapshot

Undauntedflyer, I think what you are failing to realize is the FAA has become concerned about "multiple failures". And they should be. They very person PIRA was supposed to protect us from KILLED everyone in Buffalo! Simple as that. That dimwit had a history of multiple failures from EARLY on in his flight training career, up to and including his 121 career.

I don't care what the breakdown is among ratings, certificates, or whatnot that have been busts. Multiple failures are multiple failures.....
Exactly. If he failed his Subway Sandwich Artist Checkride four times, I don't want my family's lives in his hands. You want to tell the Buffalo victim's families about the semantics of failure?
 

UndauntedFlyer

Ease the nose down
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Posts
1,062
Total Time
22,000
Trust me on this one, good pilots fail checkrides. The reason, their incompetent instructors who prepare them. This combination will be killing the careers of many young people trying to get into this career. Then their only route is to try the corporate route or become a mechanic or both, if they're lucky. BTW, the corporate life can be much better than the airline life anyway, if you find a good job.

In any event, I can comment that pink slips are not really the best way to evaluate an applicant.
 

jmreii

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Posts
584
Total Time
11,600
Trust me on this one, good pilots fail checkrides. The reason, their incompetent instructors who prepare them. This combination will be killing the careers of many young people trying to get into this career. Then their only route is to try the corporate route or become a mechanic or both, if they're lucky. BTW, the corporate life can be much better than the airline life anyway, if you find a good job.

In any event, I can comment that pink slips are not really the best way to evaluate an applicant.

Thanks for your input UndauntedFlyer. Before the Colgan accident many airlines hired pilots with multiple failures early in their aviation careers in which included part 121 airlines and was not a big thing. I fly for a large 121 cargo airline, I also flew for a 121 regional airline, I also had multiple failures 30 years ago for bull...t like not checking the examiner's door to make sure it was locked on my commercial checkride, on my instrument checkride the examiner did not hear me yell i got the runway in sight and leaving the mda on a circling approach. I know many pilots personally at the legacies with multiple failures. This situation is like all the other situations in which it will pass with time. I also have many friends who never flew for a regional because the pay is poor so I truly believe when the various airlines cannot find enough pilots they will hire what they can for the money they pay. For all smart arses out there, if you check all the legacy accident records in the United States you will find very few flight crews who did not fail any checkrides but the reason the plane crashed they were flying was pilot error. I guess they failed the that last checkride!:mad: May all your landings be happy ones.
 
Top