Pink Slips - Do CFI and Mechanic Failures Count

[UndauntedFlyer]

I was recently told by a top dog at AirTran that the FAA is going to be observing the checkrides for any new hire who as 4 or more Notices of Disapproval in their FAA files. This is a new FAA order on account of the Records Act. He said that CFI rides will count from what he thought. This doesn't make sense to me because a CFI ride is not a pilot checkride just the same as a mechanic check ride isn't either. Remember the FAA does not recognize a CFI check as a pilot proficiency check for Flight Review purposes and of course an A&P check doesn't count either, yet both generate pink slips for the airman file.

Comments please.....

 

[UnableDirect]

none of this matters if you can muster up a checkride to the standards.

 

[SnowBoardBum]

You need to change your screen name.

 

[COOPERVANE]

You seem very Daunted to me

 

[Jet_Driver]

I hate to burst your bubble dude, but as a pilot recruiter for a well known airline the CFI IS a pilot checkride. Even if this guy you know told you the FAA might not consider it to be so, the rest of us CFI's will tell you, heck yes it IS a pilot checkride. Not every 'pilot' can pass it. At my airline recruitment office we consider it the same as PVT, INST, COMM, ATP or 121/135 training testing or checking event. I hope you didn't fail it too many times.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The fact is that legally a CFI ride does not even require the applicant to hold a medical; also a CFI can exercise his privileges without holding a medical for such services as Commercial Pilot instruction or aerobatic instruction. And, as previously mentioned, a CFI checkride does not count as a Flight Review either because it is simply not a pilot checkride to the FAA. Nevertheless, I understand that an airline and even an OPS inspector could apply these pink slips as the airline wishes and disqualify the applicant, even it is not technically correct to do so. I guess they will error on the side of rejecting the poor guy even though he may have never failed a single pilot check.

So what about a failed practical check for Airframe or Powerplant Mechanic? These practical tests will generate pink slips too. Should they be disclosed and will the FAA increase surveillance on a new-hire who has mechanic pink slips just the same as CFI pink slips?

 

[ackattacker]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Whether an airline chooses to disqualify you on the basis of failed checkrides it is their call and it doesn't hinge on any legalese.

If the FAA has decided to observe checkrides when you have a bunch of pink slips (which is news to me but doesn't surprise me) then who cares what their criteria is. If you can't pass a checkride with a fed sitting there then you have bigger problems.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I guess I'm just venting about how unfair this has all become. Good people are having their careers ruined for invalid reasons. A pilot applicant can be rejected for "pink slips" even though he never failed a "pilot checkride."

Unfortunately, some very good people are having their careers ruined by circumstance, i.e., a poorly qualified instructor keeps recommending an applicant who fails his CFI oral repeatedly. That's all it takes now days.

 

[BHopper88]

And, as previously mentioned, a CFI checkride does not count as a Flight Review either because it is simply not a pilot checkride to the FAA.

Not sure what you are talking about but my "currency clock" reset after I passed my CFI/CFII/MEI checkrides. And I'm pretty sure such instructor checkrides are towards a new "certificate or rating" so an airline recruiter would count it against you if you failed one. Maybe more or less depending on your "checkride" history. Plus, I may be mistaken but for your checkride you would need a current 2nd class medical to do your checkride anyway. So how would it not be a "real pilot checkride in the eyes of the FAA? Only know the CFII doesn't count as an IPC unless u ask to include it as one.

Not sure where you get your info from...

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The fact is that legally a CFI ride does not even require the applicant to hold a medical; also a CFI can exercise his privileges without holding a medical for such services as Commercial Pilot instruction or aerobatic instruction. And, as previously mentioned, a CFI checkride does not count as a Flight Review either because it is simply not a pilot checkride to the FAA. Nevertheless, I understand that an airline and even an OPS inspector could apply these pink slips as the airline wishes and disqualify the applicant, even it is not technically correct to do so. I guess they will error on the side of rejecting the poor guy even though he may have never failed a single pilot check.

So what about a failed practical check for Airframe or Powerplant Mechanic? These practical tests will generate pink slips too. Should they be disclosed and will the FAA increase surveillance on a new-hire who has mechanic pink slips just the same as CFI pink slips?

A CFI check ride does reset your BFR.

FAR 61.56

A new certificate or rating resets the flight review. The CFI is about as "check ride" as they get in almost anyone's eyes, including the FAA. Why do you think the failure rate is so high?

Renewing your CFI resets the ground portion, but not the flight portion. Maybe that's what you are confusing.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Not sure what you are talking about but my "currency clock" reset after I passed my CFI/CFII/MEI checkrides. And I'm pretty sure such instructor checkrides are towards a new "certificate or rating" so an airline recruiter would count it against you if you failed one. Maybe more or less depending on your "checkride" history. Plus, I may be mistaken but for your checkride you would need a current 2nd class medical to do your checkride anyway. So how would it not be a "real pilot checkride in the eyes of the FAA? Only know the CFII doesn't count as an IPC unless u ask to include it as one.

Not sure where you get your info from...

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

In any case, I guess the point is that a failure is a failure. Thems the breaks.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Ok, then maybe in 1980 it didn't count, but when the rule was updated in 1997 it seems pretty clear.

"(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section."

Exactly, it says a pilot proficiency check and a CFI ride is not that. It's a flight instructor test, it's not for a pilot certificate, it's for a flight instructor certificate. Trust me, what I'm saying is 100% correct and current information.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

In any case, I guess the point is that a failure is a failure. Thems the breaks.

So you see, that's the point of this thread, "pink slips" are killing some peoples careers and they shouldn't really even be counted unless they were pilot checkrides. The fact is, CFI pink slips and even Airframe or Powerplant practical tests can generate a pink slip and that can toast a young man's career. Just because a person is disapproved for any airman certificate practical test that generates a pink slip. Sometimes "pink slips" are given when the paperwork is not filled out properly and that can ruin a career too. It's all becoming way too horrible in this career. Good people are toasted for what is sometimes really nothing.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

So you see, that's the point of this thread, "pink slips" are killing some peoples careers and they shouldn't really even be counted unless they were pilot checkrides. The fact is, CFI pink slips and even Airframe or Powerplant practical tests can generate a pink slip and that can toast a young man's career. Just because a person is disapproved for any airman certificate practical test that generates a pink slip. Sometimes "pink slips" are given when the paperwork is not filled out properly and that can ruin a career too. It's all becoming way too horrible in this career. Good people are toasted for what is sometimes really nothing.

I understand your concern, but what do you propose? The public thinks hours and failures determine pilot quality, and that's who congress responds to.

 

[BHopper88]

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

Maybe you misunderstood the reg for 21 years... After a few calls to a few DPE friends, (will call the Orlando fsdo tomorrow , since I am now curious to get an "official" ruling) they ALL say it does reset the clock without an endorsement. But do understand what you are stating. Yet seems there is no reference where i see that an extra endorsement is required, as you state. But now curious what the FSDO says, and if I'm wrong will humbly state you were right and that I learned something new.

Called an old instructor/DPE at the fsdo not the fsdo itself since it's yea as u said it's closed when I posted Hence why I edited my previous post.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Maybe you misunderstood the reg for 21 years because after a call to a few DPE friends and the Orlando FSDO they ALL say it does reset the clock. Again where in the FAR does it say its not a "real" check ride. Being that you need a current pilot certificate and by taking an initial CFI, or add on for a CFII or MEI the completion of such check ride counts to reset your commercial/ATP currency. No such endorsement is required, no extra wording as you state.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you. The FSDO is of course closed at this late hour so you couldn't get any information there. As far as the DPE's are concerned, some are misinformed, especially the new ones. Trust me, what I have posted is 100% correct, the CFI practical test does not reset the Flight Review clock. A CFI add-on ride does reset the expiration date on a CFI certificate but not the Flight Review due date of a pilot certificate. Everything I'm saying is a well established fact, although it doesn't see fair. So when I was a DPE doing a CFI ride, I always wrote "all pilot operations checked" in addition to the usual endorsement for the successful completion of a CFI ride. If I didn't make that comment, the flight review date wouldn't be legally reset. Again, a CFI test is not a test for a pilot certificate or and additional pilot rating, it is a test for a Flight Instructor Certificate or the addition of a new flight instructor rating.

 

[BHopper88]

Just got an email from another DPE friend with this link from the FAA legal regarding this issue.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...00/interpretations/data/interps/2008/levy.pdf

I humbly admit I was wrong.

 

[CA1900]

The fact is that legally a CFI ride does not even require the applicant to hold a medical...

How do you figure that?

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
...
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
...
(vi) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

How do you figure that?

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
...
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
...
(vi) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate...

This part must be a change because while it would be unusual and I can't recall this ever being the situation, the DPE would only need to agree to act as PIC if the CFI applicant had no medical. Since the DPE was PIC no medical was required for the flight to operate. That was much like an instrument rating applicant taking a practical test in IMC, whereas the DPE would have to agree to act as PIC for the flight to operate.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Just got an email from another DPE friend with this link from the FAA legal regarding this issue.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...00/interpretations/data/interps/2008/levy.pdf

I humbly admit I was wrong.

Thanks for finding that letter. As DPE's we were told to not specifically endorse for a flight review from a CFI ride because that would require the DPE to provide at least 1 hour of ground instruction and 1 hour of flight instruction and that would be in conflict with the idea of no instruction to be given on a practical test. That's why we were told to write, "All pilot operations checked."

 

[Abernathy]

I don't see what the problem is with the FAA observing the rides of newhires who have unsat 4+ rides (I don't care what they're for). If anything, it seems responsible. Likely another response to the actions of the pilot who flipped it over in Buffalo pulling back on a stall warning and had...5 busts?

It wouldn't matter anyway, I can't think of any airlines nowadays who would hire someone with 4 busts.

 

[ChickenSled]

I guess I'm just venting about how unfair this has all become. Good people are having their careers ruined for invalid reasons. A pilot applicant can be rejected for "pink slips" even though he never failed a "pilot checkride."

Unfortunately, some very good people are having their careers ruined by circumstance, i.e., a poorly qualified instructor keeps recommending an applicant who fails his CFI oral repeatedly. That's all it takes now days.

I hate to burst your bubble, but if you have multiple pink slips of any nature, you should not be carrying passengers around and you should choose a different career.

Good people are not having their careers ruined, substandard people are showing up for check rides unprepared and getting pinked. They shouldn't have a career if they aren't willing to show up prepared.

Everybody has a bad day, some guys have 2, some "maybe" three. But when you have 4 pink slips, you display a pattern of:

a) Not knowing what is required of you to pass an examination
b) Not caring what is required of you and expecting a handout
c) Not being capable of performing to a standard that is clearly published

It isn't unfair, it is the way it should be, and it should be stricter.

Nobody is getting their career ruined by "unfair" rules, they are ruining it themselves by showing up for check rides without the preparation, aptitude or ability that is required.

And blaming the instructor is one cheap a$$ cop out. He passed his ride, why can't you?

It's all becoming way too horrible in this career. Good people are toasted for what is sometimes really nothing.

No, bad people are getting weeded out for not showing up prepared for examinations for the above stated reasons.

This guy who crashed the Colgan flight in Buffalo, he wasn't some anathema, he was a poorly trained pilot with little aptitude and no self discipline. If you cant keep your trap shut for 10 minutes to observe sterile cockpit, can't take the effort to watch your airspeed while you are approaching the outer marker and can't drop the nose and put in full power when you get to a pusher situation, you should have never been there.

Your posts are defending people like this.

 

[airksk]

If all this is about is having the FAA observe a checkride, who cares? I've had them show up to observe a checkride, both randomly and because they were checking the examiner in the sim. All very professional, honestly forgot they were even there once the checkride started, had other things to concentrate on.

Fact is in this profession you have to get used to the fact that others will observe you. It's really not that big a deal.

 

[kmox29]

All very professional...

Shhhh...don't let the word get out that some of us are actually decent human beings

 

[B52GUNNER]

The Feds sit in on checkrides all the time with our airline. I've had them sit in and I have never busted a ride. If you can fly the ride to standards, you don/t have to worry who is sitting in the back. Usually they aren't observing you. they are observing the Check Airman doing the check.

 

[silver02ex]

I hate to burst your bubble, but if you have multiple pink slips of any nature, you should not be carrying passengers around and you should choose a different career.

Good people are not having their careers ruined, substandard people are showing up for check rides unprepared and getting pinked. They shouldn't have a career if they aren't willing to show up prepared.

Everybody has a bad day, some guys have 2, some "maybe" three. But when you have 4 pink slips, you display a pattern of:

a) Not knowing what is required of you to pass an examination
b) Not caring what is required of you and expecting a handout
c) Not being capable of performing to a standard that is clearly published

It isn't unfair, it is the way it should be, and it should be stricter.

Nobody is getting their career ruined by "unfair" rules, they are ruining it themselves by showing up for check rides without the preparation, aptitude or ability that is required.

And blaming the instructor is one cheap a$$ cop out. He passed his ride, why can't you?



No, bad people are getting weeded out for not showing up prepared for examinations for the above stated reasons.

This guy who crashed the Colgan flight in Buffalo, he wasn't some anathema, he was a poorly trained pilot with little aptitude and no self discipline. If you cant keep your trap shut for 10 minutes to observe sterile cockpit, can't take the effort to watch your airspeed while you are approaching the outer marker and can't drop the nose and put in full power when you get to a pusher situation, you should have never been there.

Your posts are defending people like this.

I was thinking the same thing. 1 or 2, I can understand, we all have bad days but 4?

 

[A-V-8]

I hate to burst your bubble, but if you have multiple pink slips of any nature, you should not be carrying passengers around and you should choose a different career.

Good people are not having their careers ruined, substandard people are showing up for check rides unprepared and getting pinked. They shouldn't have a career if they aren't willing to show up prepared.

Everybody has a bad day, some guys have 2, some "maybe" three. But when you have 4 pink slips, you display a pattern of:

a) Not knowing what is required of you to pass an examination
b) Not caring what is required of you and expecting a handout
c) Not being capable of performing to a standard that is clearly published

It isn't unfair, it is the way it should be, and it should be stricter.

Nobody is getting their career ruined by "unfair" rules, they are ruining it themselves by showing up for check rides without the preparation, aptitude or ability that is required.

And blaming the instructor is one cheap a$$ cop out. He passed his ride, why can't you?



No, bad people are getting weeded out for not showing up prepared for examinations for the above stated reasons.

This guy who crashed the Colgan flight in Buffalo, he wasn't some anathema, he was a poorly trained pilot with little aptitude and no self discipline. If you cant keep your trap shut for 10 minutes to observe sterile cockpit, can't take the effort to watch your airspeed while you are approaching the outer marker and can't drop the nose and put in full power when you get to a pusher situation, you should have never been there.

Your posts are defending people like this.

Interesting points you make.

I failed my oral for my private pilot license. I used the King videos to prep. My instructor did absolutely no prep with me. Not knowing any better I went for my ride. An issue occurred when I presented a weight and balance that had the empty weight example from the ASA prep book. I thought that the weight and balance was a process that you had to show that you had performed. It was actually a document that was unique to the aircraft. How do you justify the responsibility for this falling on my shoulders as opposed to my instructor?

Furthermore another three followed. In the instrument during the partial panel I busted. About an hour before I told my instructor that I was not prepared and would fail during the partial panel. He told me to just pay close attention during that portion of the ride and said you have to go for the ride or go home. Again I was in a hurry and naive. That was at ALL ATPs.

Despite an 80% failure rate at the Ft. Worth FSDO I received my CFI with a commendable rating from the examiner on the first try.

During the CFII I was told by my instructor to placard the NDB inop. so that I wouldn’t have to use it. I was afraid that this act of dishonesty would get me in serious trouble and I didn’t. Sure enough I busted my ride in an NDB holding pattern twice.

In the over 10 years since I have been through a 121 initial and an ATP/Type at a 121 carrier. Countless line checks/fed rides/proficiency checks and check rides.

1.I have not failed a check ride in a level D simulator. I have 2 type ratings
2.I have never scratched a plane
3. I have never been violated
4. All of the times I have been in the Chief Pilots office I walked in to socialize
5. I have never had a letter of investigation
6. I have never hurt a passenger
7. I have never been disciplined at an airline for a non-flying issue such as a tardy.
8. While at a 121 carrier I was a member or the Artesia Country Club.

I would also like to mention that: Just prior to aviation I was a Field Artillery Officer in the United States Army. If you failed 3 or more test in the initial nine month course you were placed on mandatory study hall. About one third off the class was on mandatory study hall by the end of the course. I did not fail a single test. The only branch with higher attrition is Aviation. While in the Army my leadership thought enough of me to make me a HQ XO and then the first HSB XO.

These pink slips represent a small portion of my life and it almost seems unfair that a felon can go get a rape expunged from his record but I can’t go and protest any of my pink slips. There is no legal mechanism by which to fight. I invested a lot of money and time and they were not an issue until some guy with a stack of them crashed a plane. Plenty of guys with perfect records have crashed. The FedEx plane that went down in Japan the same week comes to mind. This incident and the media really changed the path for me but I can’t change the past. Your future is what you make of it. I am making new friends and having a great time. I am still a pilot.

However I will submit my letter of resignation to my employer tomorrow and find something else to do.

Not


Prior to the BUF incident some airlines didn’t even ask about pink slips. Whether or not airlines will receive those records in the future will likely affect whether or not I can get a job at an airline. All of the times I was asked about the failures I was asked about pink slips. They are all in my records. I have a copy of them.


Today I have a letter that explains all of the failures and has images of them. If this a disqualifier then I want to go ahead and disqualify myself from the start as opposed to lying and risking getting fired later. If you have a stack of pink slips trust me it isn’t worth committing suicide. I nearly ended my career by leaving aviation thinking that this was not overcomeable. I was weeks away from the final flight when I got a call that changed my life. I was flying with a total Dbag and wanted nothing more than to tell him that I was too sick to fly with him. I didn’t but it humored me to know that I could have. BTW I started a thread on a non-aviation resume for a pilot. ROV operators usually have a 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off schedule and they make more than pilots. You are probably well qualified and you almost definitely will not get asked about pink slips in the interview.

 

[paid4training]

I believe there should be a grandfather clause or understanding by the airline that a pink slip event that occurred 10years or 1000 hrs ago shouldn't be an issue. If I was a student today and somehow failed my second check ride I would look for another career field the next day. But 10 years ago if u failed a check ride but passed it on the second try u were fine. Some students I knew were told the pink slip they just received was NOT a big deal and would not affect them long term.
And most good DPE's worth their salt would might be more lenient with a student who was on the pass/fail fence if the examiners knew it would affect their career longterm.

All of this because a captain did not pay attention to airspeed and subsequently couldn't do a simple stall recovery that private pilot students perform on their second lesson. Careers and investments in that career are gone!!!

 

[paid4training]

Another point, what are you supposed to do if questioned about a failure, pull out a legal intrepation of the FAR's and say it wasn't technically a failure? That would be the shortest interview ever!!!