Pink Slips - Do CFI and Mechanic Failures Count

[UndauntedFlyer]

I was recently told by a top dog at AirTran that the FAA is going to be observing the checkrides for any new hire who as 4 or more Notices of Disapproval in their FAA files. This is a new FAA order on account of the Records Act. He said that CFI rides will count from what he thought. This doesn't make sense to me because a CFI ride is not a pilot checkride just the same as a mechanic check ride isn't either. Remember the FAA does not recognize a CFI check as a pilot proficiency check for Flight Review purposes and of course an A&P check doesn't count either, yet both generate pink slips for the airman file.

Comments please.....

 

[UnableDirect]

none of this matters if you can muster up a checkride to the standards.

 

[SnowBoardBum]

You need to change your screen name.

 

[COOPERVANE]

You seem very Daunted to me

 

[Jet_Driver]

I hate to burst your bubble dude, but as a pilot recruiter for a well known airline the CFI IS a pilot checkride. Even if this guy you know told you the FAA might not consider it to be so, the rest of us CFI's will tell you, heck yes it IS a pilot checkride. Not every 'pilot' can pass it. At my airline recruitment office we consider it the same as PVT, INST, COMM, ATP or 121/135 training testing or checking event. I hope you didn't fail it too many times.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The fact is that legally a CFI ride does not even require the applicant to hold a medical; also a CFI can exercise his privileges without holding a medical for such services as Commercial Pilot instruction or aerobatic instruction. And, as previously mentioned, a CFI checkride does not count as a Flight Review either because it is simply not a pilot checkride to the FAA. Nevertheless, I understand that an airline and even an OPS inspector could apply these pink slips as the airline wishes and disqualify the applicant, even it is not technically correct to do so. I guess they will error on the side of rejecting the poor guy even though he may have never failed a single pilot check.

So what about a failed practical check for Airframe or Powerplant Mechanic? These practical tests will generate pink slips too. Should they be disclosed and will the FAA increase surveillance on a new-hire who has mechanic pink slips just the same as CFI pink slips?

 

[ackattacker]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Whether an airline chooses to disqualify you on the basis of failed checkrides it is their call and it doesn't hinge on any legalese.

If the FAA has decided to observe checkrides when you have a bunch of pink slips (which is news to me but doesn't surprise me) then who cares what their criteria is. If you can't pass a checkride with a fed sitting there then you have bigger problems.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I guess I'm just venting about how unfair this has all become. Good people are having their careers ruined for invalid reasons. A pilot applicant can be rejected for "pink slips" even though he never failed a "pilot checkride."

Unfortunately, some very good people are having their careers ruined by circumstance, i.e., a poorly qualified instructor keeps recommending an applicant who fails his CFI oral repeatedly. That's all it takes now days.

 

[BHopper88]

And, as previously mentioned, a CFI checkride does not count as a Flight Review either because it is simply not a pilot checkride to the FAA.

Not sure what you are talking about but my "currency clock" reset after I passed my CFI/CFII/MEI checkrides. And I'm pretty sure such instructor checkrides are towards a new "certificate or rating" so an airline recruiter would count it against you if you failed one. Maybe more or less depending on your "checkride" history. Plus, I may be mistaken but for your checkride you would need a current 2nd class medical to do your checkride anyway. So how would it not be a "real pilot checkride in the eyes of the FAA? Only know the CFII doesn't count as an IPC unless u ask to include it as one.

Not sure where you get your info from...

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The fact is that legally a CFI ride does not even require the applicant to hold a medical; also a CFI can exercise his privileges without holding a medical for such services as Commercial Pilot instruction or aerobatic instruction. And, as previously mentioned, a CFI checkride does not count as a Flight Review either because it is simply not a pilot checkride to the FAA. Nevertheless, I understand that an airline and even an OPS inspector could apply these pink slips as the airline wishes and disqualify the applicant, even it is not technically correct to do so. I guess they will error on the side of rejecting the poor guy even though he may have never failed a single pilot check.

So what about a failed practical check for Airframe or Powerplant Mechanic? These practical tests will generate pink slips too. Should they be disclosed and will the FAA increase surveillance on a new-hire who has mechanic pink slips just the same as CFI pink slips?

A CFI check ride does reset your BFR.

FAR 61.56

A new certificate or rating resets the flight review. The CFI is about as "check ride" as they get in almost anyone's eyes, including the FAA. Why do you think the failure rate is so high?

Renewing your CFI resets the ground portion, but not the flight portion. Maybe that's what you are confusing.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Not sure what you are talking about but my "currency clock" reset after I passed my CFI/CFII/MEI checkrides. And I'm pretty sure such instructor checkrides are towards a new "certificate or rating" so an airline recruiter would count it against you if you failed one. Maybe more or less depending on your "checkride" history. Plus, I may be mistaken but for your checkride you would need a current 2nd class medical to do your checkride anyway. So how would it not be a "real pilot checkride in the eyes of the FAA? Only know the CFII doesn't count as an IPC unless u ask to include it as one.

Not sure where you get your info from...

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

In any case, I guess the point is that a failure is a failure. Thems the breaks.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Ok, then maybe in 1980 it didn't count, but when the rule was updated in 1997 it seems pretty clear.

"(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section."

Exactly, it says a pilot proficiency check and a CFI ride is not that. It's a flight instructor test, it's not for a pilot certificate, it's for a flight instructor certificate. Trust me, what I'm saying is 100% correct and current information.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

In any case, I guess the point is that a failure is a failure. Thems the breaks.

So you see, that's the point of this thread, "pink slips" are killing some peoples careers and they shouldn't really even be counted unless they were pilot checkrides. The fact is, CFI pink slips and even Airframe or Powerplant practical tests can generate a pink slip and that can toast a young man's career. Just because a person is disapproved for any airman certificate practical test that generates a pink slip. Sometimes "pink slips" are given when the paperwork is not filled out properly and that can ruin a career too. It's all becoming way too horrible in this career. Good people are toasted for what is sometimes really nothing.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

So you see, that's the point of this thread, "pink slips" are killing some peoples careers and they shouldn't really even be counted unless they were pilot checkrides. The fact is, CFI pink slips and even Airframe or Powerplant practical tests can generate a pink slip and that can toast a young man's career. Just because a person is disapproved for any airman certificate practical test that generates a pink slip. Sometimes "pink slips" are given when the paperwork is not filled out properly and that can ruin a career too. It's all becoming way too horrible in this career. Good people are toasted for what is sometimes really nothing.

I understand your concern, but what do you propose? The public thinks hours and failures determine pilot quality, and that's who congress responds to.

 

[BHopper88]

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

Maybe you misunderstood the reg for 21 years... After a few calls to a few DPE friends, (will call the Orlando fsdo tomorrow , since I am now curious to get an "official" ruling) they ALL say it does reset the clock without an endorsement. But do understand what you are stating. Yet seems there is no reference where i see that an extra endorsement is required, as you state. But now curious what the FSDO says, and if I'm wrong will humbly state you were right and that I learned something new.

Called an old instructor/DPE at the fsdo not the fsdo itself since it's yea as u said it's closed when I posted Hence why I edited my previous post.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Maybe you misunderstood the reg for 21 years because after a call to a few DPE friends and the Orlando FSDO they ALL say it does reset the clock. Again where in the FAR does it say its not a "real" check ride. Being that you need a current pilot certificate and by taking an initial CFI, or add on for a CFII or MEI the completion of such check ride counts to reset your commercial/ATP currency. No such endorsement is required, no extra wording as you state.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you. The FSDO is of course closed at this late hour so you couldn't get any information there. As far as the DPE's are concerned, some are misinformed, especially the new ones. Trust me, what I have posted is 100% correct, the CFI practical test does not reset the Flight Review clock. A CFI add-on ride does reset the expiration date on a CFI certificate but not the Flight Review due date of a pilot certificate. Everything I'm saying is a well established fact, although it doesn't see fair. So when I was a DPE doing a CFI ride, I always wrote "all pilot operations checked" in addition to the usual endorsement for the successful completion of a CFI ride. If I didn't make that comment, the flight review date wouldn't be legally reset. Again, a CFI test is not a test for a pilot certificate or and additional pilot rating, it is a test for a Flight Instructor Certificate or the addition of a new flight instructor rating.

 

[BHopper88]

Just got an email from another DPE friend with this link from the FAA legal regarding this issue.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...00/interpretations/data/interps/2008/levy.pdf

I humbly admit I was wrong.

 

[CA1900]

The fact is that legally a CFI ride does not even require the applicant to hold a medical...

How do you figure that?

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
...
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
...
(vi) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

How do you figure that?

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
...
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
...
(vi) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate...

This part must be a change because while it would be unusual and I can't recall this ever being the situation, the DPE would only need to agree to act as PIC if the CFI applicant had no medical. Since the DPE was PIC no medical was required for the flight to operate. That was much like an instrument rating applicant taking a practical test in IMC, whereas the DPE would have to agree to act as PIC for the flight to operate.