Pink Slips - Do CFI and Mechanic Failures Count

[rettofly]

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

In your capacity as a DPE, have you ever administered a CFI ride of any kind to an applicant who didn't hold a pilot certificate with ratings appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft used for the ride?

If I were a student selecting an instructor, I would want him or her to be a certificated pilot.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

In your capacity as a DPE, have you ever administered a CFI ride of any kind to an applicant who didn't hold a pilot certificate with ratings appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft used for the ride?

If I were a student selecting an instructor, I would want him or her to be a certificated pilot.

No, because anyone going for a CFI add-on, renewal, initial or reinstatement ride must be qualified in category and class. Of course, type does not apply.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Thanks for your input UndauntedFlyer. Before the Colgan accident many airlines hired pilots with multiple failures early in their aviation careers in which included part 121 airlines and was not a big thing. I fly for a large 121 cargo airline, I also flew for a 121 regional airline, I also had multiple failures 30 years ago for bull...t like not checking the examiner's door to make sure it was locked on my commercial checkride, on my instrument checkride the examiner did not hear me yell i got the runway in sight and leaving the mda on a circling approach. I know many pilots personally at the legacies with multiple failures. This situation is like all the other situations in which it will pass with time. I also have many friends who never flew for a regional because the pay is poor so I truly believe when the various airlines cannot find enough pilots they will hire what they can for the money they pay. For all smart arses out there, if you check all the legacy accident records in the United States you will find very few flight crews who did not fail any checkrides but the reason the plane crashed they were flying was pilot error. I guess they failed the that last checkride! May all your landings be happy ones.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, poor CFI prep for tests, cheap shot failures by the DPE's and the FAA not allowing any repeats on anything. Part 121 checks allow repeats, but not Part61/141 rides. Many careers are being ruined by training and checking that is unfair for many reasons.

 

[kmox29]

Currently, CFI failures will not show up in a PRIA request. However, if the company which was hiring you wanted to submit a FOIA request, they would be able to see that you failed a CFI checkride.

HR 5900 will change all of this. When the pilot records section becomes effective, ALL failed checkrides (yes, even the Private Pilot) will be available to the carrier, without submitting a FOIA request.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, poor CFI prep for tests, cheap shot failures by the DPE's and the FAA not allowing any repeats on anything. Part 121 checks allow repeats, but not Part61/141 rides. Many careers are being ruined by training and checking that is unfair for many reasons.

Good pilots do fail check rides. But good pilots also say to themselves (and others) I screwed up; I had a bad day; I wasn't prepared; it was my fault and I will fix it.

Dangerous pilots blame everyone else for their failures. It is this attitude, more than the individual failures, that causes me concern.

I also call B.S. as DPEs generally don't bust applicants by cheap shots, nor for a single minor oversight, unless it is specifically listed in the PTS. But, in that case you should friggin' know it. I've had a couple of rides either by a fed or with a fed observing when I totally stepped on my d**k. But I continued on to give a stellar ride otherwise. The fed/DPE saw the f'up for what it was, looked at the entire performance, saw I had my s**t together and I passed.

I'll even give you that you may have run across a hard-nosed DPE or two. But, generally, these people have a reputation as such. You seem to be plagued by such people.

 

[J.Otto]

141 failure?

Currently, CFI failures will not show up in a PRIA request. However, if the company which was hiring you wanted to submit a FOIA request, they would be able to see that you failed a CFI checkride.

HR 5900 will change all of this. When the pilot records section becomes effective, ALL failed checkrides (yes, even the Private Pilot) will be available to the carrier, without submitting a FOIA request.

What about a prior 141 failure?

I forget how that applies here. Lets say you go for your CFI checkride (at a 141 mill) and you botch something. They tell you to go back up with your instructor and come back the next day to retake it.

Is this a documented failure like you might receive if you went to the FSDO for your CFI ride?

IIRC, it is not a failure like the 61 ride. BUT will it show up on this FOIA request?

 

[dirkdigler]

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

This was what I heard when I went to OKC for my DPE initial class few years ago.

 

[dirkdigler]

Maybe you misunderstood the reg for 21 years... After a few calls to a few DPE friends, (will call the Orlando fsdo tomorrow , since I am now curious to get an "official" ruling) they ALL say it does reset the clock without an endorsement. But do understand what you are stating. Yet seems there is no reference where i see that an extra endorsement is required, as you state. But now curious what the FSDO says, and if I'm wrong will humbly state you were right and that I learned something new.

Called an old instructor/DPE at the fsdo not the fsdo itself since it's yea as u said it's closed when I posted Hence why I edited my previous post.

Here's the FAA's official answer for this question:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...00/interpretations/data/interps/2008/Levy.pdf

 

[kmox29]

What about a prior 141 failure?

I forget how that applies here. Lets say you go for your CFI checkride (at a 141 mill) and you botch something. They tell you to go back up with your instructor and come back the next day to retake it.

Is this a documented failure like you might receive if you went to the FSDO for your CFI ride?

IIRC, it is not a failure like the 61 ride. BUT will it show up on this FOIA request?

I believe so. What we're talking about here are PTRS reports (insert TPS reports joke here). These are what the FAA uses to show work done (i.e. surveillance, checkrides, etc). Even DPEs and APDs are required to submits PTRS reports to the respective office.

Everyone's airman record shows PTRS activity. Checkrides passed, type ratings issued, CFIs renewed, etc. While these PTRSs do not show up under PRIA, they would show up under FOIA.

The question is: how many companies go the extra step and request a FOIA lookup. I don't know the answer to that.

 

[paid4training]

So in short, if u failed check rides during the "it's a training experience" time you are subject to the "more than x failed" of today so apply to trucking school cause ur toast. Well at least until all the 141 mills put out all the pilots they can and flights are can Elle's because of lack of crew.

I took my first flight in a 152 in oct 1992. During that semester I found out that you had to have 20/20 uncorrected to fly for an airline. So in my infodent 18 yr old decision making process I quit. See, at the time the military was putting out all the pilots and ga had little chance to even get an interview. The military began to put out less pilots and held on the ones they had, thus reducing the pilot pool.

Right now the few schools left are not putting out enough pilots for the coming age 65 retirements. Last year was the lowest start for student pilots in decades. I know, I was an independent flight instructor trying to survive.

 

[J.Otto]

I believe so. What we're talking about here are PTRS reports (insert TPS reports joke here). These are what the FAA uses to show work done (i.e. surveillance, checkrides, etc). Even DPEs and APDs are required to submits PTRS reports to the respective office.

Everyone's airman record shows PTRS activity. Checkrides passed, type ratings issued, CFIs renewed, etc. While these PTRSs do not show up under PRIA, they would show up under FOIA.

The question is: how many companies go the extra step and request a FOIA lookup. I don't know the answer to that.

I was under the impression that these type of 141 failures were not actually failures, but stage check failures, and would not come up as an actual failure. The 141 rides were done by inhouse as well, so maybe they like to sweep this under thr rug to make their outfit look like they dont fail too many which would indicate poor instruction and a possible revoke of their inhouse DE privileges and ability to be 141.

so this "stage check failure" then shows up on your FOIA?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

So in short, if u failed check rides during the "it's a training experience" time you are subject to the "more than x failed" of today so apply to trucking school cause ur toast. Well at least until all the 141 mills put out all the pilots they can and flights are can Elle's because of lack of crew.

I took my first flight in a 152 in oct 1992. During that semester I found out that you had to have 20/20 uncorrected to fly for an airline. So in my infodent 18 yr old decision making process I quit. See, at the time the military was putting out all the pilots and ga had little chance to even get an interview. The military began to put out less pilots and held on the ones they had, thus reducing the pilot pool.

Right now the few schools left are not putting out enough pilots for the coming age 65 retirements. Last year was the lowest start for student pilots in decades. I know, I was an independent flight instructor trying to survive.

Could you possibly translate "infodent" for us?

 

[kmox29]

...so this "stage check failure" then shows up on your FOIA?

I may have misunderstood your question. In this case, no, the "failure" would not show up in a FOIA request as there was no certification action being done (stage checks are not certification activities).

What I was referencing is when someone takes the CFI practical test and does not pass (141 or 61), the DE is required to submit a PTRS for that activity which would show the failure. That would come up in a FOIA requrest.

 

[ultrarunner]

The question is: how many companies go the extra step and request a FOIA lookup. I don't know the answer to that.

I suspect few to none. If a company needs more info on an applicant than what can get gotten from the Interview, PRIA and the questions contained in the application, then they don't trust the applicant.

99.99 percent of us answer truthfully in the interview and on the application. However, as the Colgan Captain in Buffalo showed, he wasn't opposed to lying to cover up his previous check ride failure(s).....

And as a previous poster pointed out, HR 5900 will now prevent the failures of practical checks from being excluded, including those from previous carriers..etc... That is all good....


Ultra

 

[J.Otto]

I may have misunderstood your question. In this case, no, the "failure" would not show up in a FOIA request as there was no certification action being done (stage checks are not certification activities).

What I was referencing is when someone takes the CFI practical test and does not pass (141 or 61), the DE is required to submit a PTRS for that activity which would show the failure. That would come up in a FOIA requrest.

No no, i think you actually did understand my question. The 141 applicant goes up for his CFI checkride but doesnt perform something to standards. During the so-called checkride, he is told to do a quick flight with their CFI addressing the area and comes back to eventually pass.

The 141 school does not issue a pink slip like a DPE or FAA guy at a 61 school. My understanding is that this event is not recorded as a technical failure (ONLY b/c it took place on 141 property) - unlike a 61 ride where the same scenario would yield an actual pink slip.

so what youre saying is that even though the 141 applicant did not receive a pink slip, it is still a failure?

 

[kmox29]

so what youre saying is that even though the 141 applicant did not receive a pink slip, it is still a failure?

Ok, I see what you're saying. In that case, no. If you did not receive a pink slip (i.e. Form 8060-5 Notice of Disapproval), then that "failure" would not show up on your airman record.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[kmox29]

I suspect few to none.

I suspect you are correct. I just don't have the hard data to back up my suspicions. I just wanted people to know that (although probably rare) companies do have the option of a FOIA request, so I'd be honest. :beer:

 

[J.Otto]

thanks, kmox!

 

[Wankel7]

I was recently told by a top dog at AirTran that the FAA is going to be observing the checkrides for any new hire who as 4 or more Notices of Disapproval in their FAA files. This is a new FAA order on account of the Records Act. He said that CFI rides will count from what he thought. This doesn't make sense to me because a CFI ride is not a pilot checkride just the same as a mechanic check ride isn't either. Remember the FAA does not recognize a CFI check as a pilot proficiency check for Flight Review purposes and of course an A&P check doesn't count either, yet both generate pink slips for the airman file.

Comments please.....

Every time I've done a checkride I've assumed the FAA could show up and observe...

 

[kmox29]

Every time I've done a checkride I've assumed the FAA could show up and observe...

A good rule to live by.

When the FAA shows up for your checkride, rarely are they there to observe you. Generally, they show up to complete required surveillance on a Check Airman or an APD.

Yes, during that process they will be witnessing your checkride, but normally the focus is on the pilot conducting the check.