Pink Slips - Do CFI and Mechanic Failures Count

[jmreii]

Another take on this subject is the over regulation of this industry with laws, rules, and policies in which are redundant. Its no wonder so many industries make the decision to relocate the investor's business or operations to another country in-order to save the business from regulators/politicians in this country whereas he or she is clueless. Of all the industries in this country in which are over regulated we have thoroughly destroyed the auto industry, general aviation is on the ropes, and the airline industry is next up. The only other industry I can think of making money despite political incompetence is the railroad industry. Next time you travel overseas check out the locals because he or she might be laughing at you not with you!

 

[IBNAV8R]

" I think that someday the world will be entirely populated with bureaucrats such as yourself because the real people will do away with themselves out of frustration"

Moravia, The Aviator, 1985.

 

[ultrarunner]

Undauntedflyer, I think what you are failing to realize is the FAA has become concerned about "multiple failures". And they should be. They very person PIRA was supposed to protect us from KILLED everyone in Buffalo! Simple as that. That dimwit had a history of multiple failures from EARLY on in his flight training career, up to and including his 121 career.

I don't care what the breakdown is among ratings, certificates, or whatnot that have been busts. Multiple failures are multiple failures.....

Ultra

 

[brokeflyer]

the cfi would count as a bust. a cfi is not a cert true, but neither is an instrument or multi engine. a check ride is a check ride.

 

[JokerFuel]

I wouldn't sweat this. I know you likely allot of stress over this kind of thing, especially if you're currently interviewing or getting ready to interview, but realise that you're not alone. Many people have failures and pink slips. It's all part of learning. If you're at the point in your career where you are interviewing or have been offered conditional employment with a place like AirTran, then you've likely been paying your dues for quite sometime. If you haven't got there yet, I assure you that you will. Honesty is the best policy and a positive attitude will take you all the way in this industry. If you're asked about this and/or any other obstacles you've overcome chalk it up to experience. Spin it as a way that you grew as an aviator. Above all don't sweat it.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Part 121 checkrides are very much by the book so what is tested is exactly what is trained. Failures at that level are fairly rare compared to the Part 61/141 world of inconsistent testing among examiners and incomplete training by inexperienced CFI's who are still learning. The Part 61/141 world is the perfect prescription for "pink slips" which are all too common. Unfortunately it's the applicant that pays the price for this situation with his career. Trust me, it's not too hard for an enthusiastic 17-year old to come to his/her test and fail something on the oral that they didn't know they'd be asked about, then to come back and fail the flight for something such as emergency landings or crosswind landings being just not good enough. Then, down the road there are many more opportunities for failure for what are actually very small things. The new items that will fail applicants are are the new ADM, Risk Management decision making. Then just look the the new Special Emphasis areas in the PTS and you will see the subjectivity that is a part of the new tests. It will be a wonder if anyone can make it to a Part 121 interview without multiple failures.

Examiners shall place special emphasis upon areas of aircraft
operations considered critical to flight safety. Among these are:
1. positive aircraft control;
2. procedures for positive exchange of flight controls (who is flying
the airplane);
3. stall/spin awareness;
4. collision avoidance;
5. wake turbulence avoidance;
6. Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO);
7. runway incursion avoidance;
8. controlled flight into terrain (CFIT);
9. aeronautical decision making (ADM);
10. checklist usage; and
11. other areas deemed appropriate to any phase of the practical

 

[Snapshot]

I failed my oral for my private pilot license. I used the King videos to prep....

"I went to my checkride after watching some videos without knowing the materials that are clearly defined in the PTS. My 'buy the ticket instead of earning it' scheme didn't pan out......Must be someone else's fault."

In the instrument during the partial panel I busted. About an hour before I told my instructor that I was not prepared and would fail during the partial panel.That was at ALL ATPs.

"I went to the checkride to verify that I was able to Perform a skill. I knew that I wasn't prepared, but went anyway, hoping that the examiner would violate his integrity and pass me anyway. After all, my check cleared, and my 'buy your ticket instead of earning it' school said it was (wink, wink) no big deal. My scheme didn't work out again."

During the CFII I was told by my instructor to placard the NDB inop. so that I wouldn’t have to use it. I was afraid that this act of dishonesty would get me in serious trouble and I didn’t. Sure enough I busted my ride in an NDB holding pattern twice.

"I showed up for a checkride, knowing I was expected to TEACH a skill I couldn't even PERFORM. My 'buy your ticket instead of earning it' school told me to be dishonest. I respected the examiner and the process enough to not lie about the status of my instruments, but not enough to actually know how to use them. It must be someone else's fault....Apparently, after insulting the examiner and process once, Instead of learning how to perform the task, I failed again.................for the same thing?


So. Now, as a result of your failed attempts to take short cuts early in your career, you now may face extra scrutiny. That's what you've actually earned while trying to buy your way to the top.

However I will submit my letter of resignation to my employer tomorrow and find something else to do.....If you have a stack of pink slips trust me it isn’t worth committing suicide.

Yeah, Nobody is asking you to. Take a deep breath. It's an extra guy sitting in the sim when you're a new hire. Suck it up.

 

[Snapshot]

Undauntedflyer, I think what you are failing to realize is the FAA has become concerned about "multiple failures". And they should be. They very person PIRA was supposed to protect us from KILLED everyone in Buffalo! Simple as that. That dimwit had a history of multiple failures from EARLY on in his flight training career, up to and including his 121 career.

I don't care what the breakdown is among ratings, certificates, or whatnot that have been busts. Multiple failures are multiple failures.....

Exactly. If he failed his Subway Sandwich Artist Checkride four times, I don't want my family's lives in his hands. You want to tell the Buffalo victim's families about the semantics of failure?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Trust me on this one, good pilots fail checkrides. The reason, their incompetent instructors who prepare them. This combination will be killing the careers of many young people trying to get into this career. Then their only route is to try the corporate route or become a mechanic or both, if they're lucky. BTW, the corporate life can be much better than the airline life anyway, if you find a good job.

In any event, I can comment that pink slips are not really the best way to evaluate an applicant.

 

[jmreii]

Trust me on this one, good pilots fail checkrides. The reason, their incompetent instructors who prepare them. This combination will be killing the careers of many young people trying to get into this career. Then their only route is to try the corporate route or become a mechanic or both, if they're lucky. BTW, the corporate life can be much better than the airline life anyway, if you find a good job.

In any event, I can comment that pink slips are not really the best way to evaluate an applicant.

Thanks for your input UndauntedFlyer. Before the Colgan accident many airlines hired pilots with multiple failures early in their aviation careers in which included part 121 airlines and was not a big thing. I fly for a large 121 cargo airline, I also flew for a 121 regional airline, I also had multiple failures 30 years ago for bull...t like not checking the examiner's door to make sure it was locked on my commercial checkride, on my instrument checkride the examiner did not hear me yell i got the runway in sight and leaving the mda on a circling approach. I know many pilots personally at the legacies with multiple failures. This situation is like all the other situations in which it will pass with time. I also have many friends who never flew for a regional because the pay is poor so I truly believe when the various airlines cannot find enough pilots they will hire what they can for the money they pay. For all smart arses out there, if you check all the legacy accident records in the United States you will find very few flight crews who did not fail any checkrides but the reason the plane crashed they were flying was pilot error. I guess they failed the that last checkride! May all your landings be happy ones.

 

[rettofly]

I am very experienced in this area since I was a DPE for 21 years. Trust me, a CFI ride of any type does not reset the Flight Review clock, unless the DPE goes out of his way to write the words "all pilot operations checked," which is not the same as the DPE or OPS inspector endorsing, "Flight Instructor airplane single engine practical test passed" as they usually do. You see, it's important to understand that a CFI checkride is not a pilot test, it's an instructor test, and as I've mentioned, the applicant doesn't even need to have a valid medical certificate to take any CFI practical test.

The FAR says that a pilot proficiency check resets the Flight Review clock, a CFI ride is not a pilot check it's as simple as that, or so says the FAA.

In your capacity as a DPE, have you ever administered a CFI ride of any kind to an applicant who didn't hold a pilot certificate with ratings appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft used for the ride?

If I were a student selecting an instructor, I would want him or her to be a certificated pilot.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

In your capacity as a DPE, have you ever administered a CFI ride of any kind to an applicant who didn't hold a pilot certificate with ratings appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft used for the ride?

If I were a student selecting an instructor, I would want him or her to be a certificated pilot.

No, because anyone going for a CFI add-on, renewal, initial or reinstatement ride must be qualified in category and class. Of course, type does not apply.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Thanks for your input UndauntedFlyer. Before the Colgan accident many airlines hired pilots with multiple failures early in their aviation careers in which included part 121 airlines and was not a big thing. I fly for a large 121 cargo airline, I also flew for a 121 regional airline, I also had multiple failures 30 years ago for bull...t like not checking the examiner's door to make sure it was locked on my commercial checkride, on my instrument checkride the examiner did not hear me yell i got the runway in sight and leaving the mda on a circling approach. I know many pilots personally at the legacies with multiple failures. This situation is like all the other situations in which it will pass with time. I also have many friends who never flew for a regional because the pay is poor so I truly believe when the various airlines cannot find enough pilots they will hire what they can for the money they pay. For all smart arses out there, if you check all the legacy accident records in the United States you will find very few flight crews who did not fail any checkrides but the reason the plane crashed they were flying was pilot error. I guess they failed the that last checkride! May all your landings be happy ones.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, poor CFI prep for tests, cheap shot failures by the DPE's and the FAA not allowing any repeats on anything. Part 121 checks allow repeats, but not Part61/141 rides. Many careers are being ruined by training and checking that is unfair for many reasons.

 

[kmox29]

Currently, CFI failures will not show up in a PRIA request. However, if the company which was hiring you wanted to submit a FOIA request, they would be able to see that you failed a CFI checkride.

HR 5900 will change all of this. When the pilot records section becomes effective, ALL failed checkrides (yes, even the Private Pilot) will be available to the carrier, without submitting a FOIA request.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, poor CFI prep for tests, cheap shot failures by the DPE's and the FAA not allowing any repeats on anything. Part 121 checks allow repeats, but not Part61/141 rides. Many careers are being ruined by training and checking that is unfair for many reasons.

Good pilots do fail check rides. But good pilots also say to themselves (and others) I screwed up; I had a bad day; I wasn't prepared; it was my fault and I will fix it.

Dangerous pilots blame everyone else for their failures. It is this attitude, more than the individual failures, that causes me concern.

I also call B.S. as DPEs generally don't bust applicants by cheap shots, nor for a single minor oversight, unless it is specifically listed in the PTS. But, in that case you should friggin' know it. I've had a couple of rides either by a fed or with a fed observing when I totally stepped on my d**k. But I continued on to give a stellar ride otherwise. The fed/DPE saw the f'up for what it was, looked at the entire performance, saw I had my s**t together and I passed.

I'll even give you that you may have run across a hard-nosed DPE or two. But, generally, these people have a reputation as such. You seem to be plagued by such people.