Pilots, White Collar or Blue Collar

[Fins Up]

"White collar"..."Blue collar"...meh.

Categories. I refuse to be fixed into a cateogry. I'm a pilot. I get paid by the hour to do something I like to do. I don't give a hoot what "collar" they want to call me.

Here Here.

 

[Flip Conroy]

This downward spiral has nothing to do with political parties. It is about the "elites" in this country controlling everything. They believe it is their manifest destiny to run the country. The educated middle class is a threat to their position.

I've seen this first hand. My daughter has gone to the top private school in my city since K. We thought we'd fit in with the other parents because I was a pilot for a "major airline". Not exactly. There is a club among those with money. We weren't invited. Never mind that alcoholism and drug abuse is rampant, these are the superior beings on this earth and they are destined to ride herd over the rest of us.

.TC

Man, based on your last couple of posts, you have misplaced so much of your energy and assigned WAY too much importance to things that just don't matter at all and over which you have NO control.

If I were you, I get a grip on reality and start worrying about the things that really are important and understand that BS will always be BS and there is not one damm thing you can do about it.

 

[Uppercrust]

Interesting analogy between pilots and some medical doctors:

They wear a uniform (white coat/tie or scrubs), many ARE paid negotiated wages (docs working for Kaiser, for instance, are in the Permanente Medical Group and supply their labor to Kaiser under a fee agreement, perhaps they don't operate "heavy machinery" but do operate multi-million $ equipment like pilots, and more and more of them are unionizing and threatening to withhold their services in an effort to restore their declining pay/working conditions.

I don't know of anyone who would consider doctors to be blue collar, however. In some medical sub-specialties, their colleagues readily refer to them as technicians due to the limited field/scope of medicine they practice.

The general decline in the medical profession has been underway for about 2 decades. Like today's cargo pilots, some docs in specialties and sub-specialties have fared relatively well (economically speaking) in spite of the decline in the medical field around them.

I find many similarities in the two professions. Both are in decline in terms of prestige and financial remuneration. 30 years ago major airline pilots were respected and looked up to and doctors' conclusions were not questioned. Now, people feel pity for airline pilots losing their pensions and wages, a significant number of airlines are bankrupt (or nearly so), the LCC's (like today's HMO's) are the norm and most patients obtain a second or third "opinion" on any serious diagnosis.

There are many parallels.

BBB

There isn't much comparison at all. Knowing somebody to get a job is how pilots work. The job when you get it, really ain't that bad.

Seriously, try becoming a doctor. We do have hoops to jump through as pilots but they are big hoops. Doctors have a lot more education to go through, they must get high marks, and overall it is a much more competitive/objective and performance judged game. What's competitive about knowing somebody to get a job!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: How hard is it to fly a computer anyway???

 

[pilotyip]

You can make a career as a pilot with out a college degree, you can not do that as a doctor. Fly because you like to and this is a great career. If you are in it for other things you may be disappointed.

 

[Green]

You can search this board for this discussion.....

Look at it this way.... How does management and Wall Street view airline pilots?

We are blue collar all the way. But we are unique. Unlike most blue collar workers we show up to picketing and strikes in Caddy's and BMWs.

When it comes down to negotiations we function just like all the other blue collar workers. Hammering out hourly rates, work rules etc...

Perhaps when this profession was born it should've been defined as salary?

The trick is to present ourselves as professionally as we can.

So the next time you pass a maid cleaning rooms in your hotel, know that Air Line Pilots have much in common with her than white collar workers.

Respectfully, with Air Mail on the wings, and 75 years of expereince I'd think this would be known......

ALPA was in court to define whether we were a profession or a trade union. The power players in this country think you are blue collar.



A good book is "The Air Line Pilots: A Study In Elite Unionization".

I was written by Hopkins. His work was noticed by ALPA he was asked to write Flying the Line. As you know Flying the Line and The Air Line Pilots are not pro ALPA.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=George%20E.%20Hopkins&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/103-4660626-7463029

Not many pilots driving Caddy's and BMW's these days. That might have been a little more realistic about 5-10 years ago. I find it ironic that Air Traffic controllers used to argue that they deserve to make as much as Pilots and now they make significantly more than the average pilot (ATC=150k/yr avg.).

 

[91100 100 set]

Blue, and don't ever try to fool yourself otherwise...

 

[ferlo]

Blue as it gets...Except we have the feds standing on our throats with the Railway Labor act. Just as blue as a UAW but with out the rights and control.

 

[Phaedrus]

I'm so blue I don't know what to do.
-Madame Blueberry (Veggie Tales)

 

[pilotguy733]

We are blue collar workers, dressed like white collar workers, and paid like fast food workers.

 

[ivauir]

I consider myself high speed equipment/heavy equipment operator.

 

[Andy]

They will get all the money and we will do all the work since so many pilots LOVE to fly so much that they don't care about a nice wage anymore.

BARF!
I was in Cheyenne, WY a couple of months ago (doing military crap) and was staying at the Plains hotel. That's the same hotel that Great Lakes aircrews stay at; mostly in training, but also for layovers.
I was in the Snake River saloon across the street and got to talking to some of the Great Lakes crews and I asked one of their senior pilots (also an instructor) how much he made a year. $55K. Now, knowing that pilots have a propensity to overstate everything (I'm 10 inches erect. Honestly.), I figure that the SOB is probably making $45-50K/yr. When I told him that the profession was fast dying and to go do something that paid decent wages, the SOB looked at me and said, 'I don't do it for the money; I do it for the love of flying.' I just walked away shaking my cranium case. That's the future, ladies and gents. The next generation of pilots that is moving up the ranks will be doing it for the love of flying; they don't mind living in their parents' basement.
We're blue collar all the way; in another 10 years, this won't even be debated.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Blue as it gets...Except we have the feds standing on our throats with the Railway Labor act. Just as blue as a UAW but with out the rights and control.

Just wait, the UAW is the next union on the hit list. I'd be real surprised if GM still has a pension in 2 years.

 

[pilotyip]

And what is the UAW track history? 800K members in 1979, 350K in 2006. Non union plants paying equal wages, doing more work with less people. It is called productivity, the UAW has been about protecting jobs at the expense of productivity. However there are encouraging lights on the horizon, a new UAW plant just sound of Willow Run is running with all skilled trades wages, and only 2 job classifications. It is staffed about 40% below the typical UAW contract plant, the workers make more and the plant is amongst the most productive engine plants in the world.

 

[pilotyip]

Andy remember fly because you like to, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed.

 

[Lame Lizard]

You need a federal license in order to operate an aircraft. You need medical clearence and also to pass a background check. You are tested every 6 months on your skills. You are white collar. You are checked more than lawyers, who are only required to have so many hours of recurrent training a year and certainly more than doctors who are not nearly as scrutinized as pilots are. To say you are blue collar is like calling a garbage man a "Sanatation Engineer", even though they make a hell of lot more than a F/O at a regional. Sad, but true. We have done it to ourselves.

 

[FLYLOW22]

IMHO, untill ALPA places our job classification as a white collar profession, we will continue to reach lower levels of pay and benefits.

I doubt ALPA placing a label on it's members will have much effect on the price of tea on the moon.

Each professional pilot working under a contract IS a blue collar worker. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that either.

YOU ARE A CONTRACT LABORER. So am I. Big deal... unless you think it's a bad thing.

All a matter of perspective.

I tend to think of it as a strength... strength in numbers.

Pilots are some of the wierdest animals out there; being both professionally and pollitically confused.

It's some deep stuff most aren't willing to ponder for a long period. Management knows this.

Don't wait for the Union to lead you. The pilots should be leading the Union.

 

[PCL_128]

Andy remember fly because you like to, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed.

You really need to stop repeating that damned mantra. We heard it the first 25,000 times.

 

[Andy]

Andy remember fly because you like to, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed.

There's a difference between enjoying your job and being a cheap whore.
I'm tired of seeing pilots justify taking a low paying job because they 'do it for the love of flying,' only to turn around and push for scope to be lifted so that they can fly a 70 seater and top out at $70/hr. Or how about that 80/80/80 chant not too long ago ... fly the MD-80 for 80hr/mo for $80/hr in the left seat?
With what's being paid in smaller airlines, I was perfectly happy to walk away from aviation after being furloughed from United.
If you don't consider your labor to be worth much, you can sure as he11 bet that management doesn't consider you to be worth much either.

While I like flying, I love my current nonflying job. I have much more responsibility than I did in any flying job. There's more to life than just pushing tin across the sky.

 

[pilotyip]

Been There Done That

Andy why is making $100K per year acting as a cheap hoe?. It is in the upper 5% of US income. Best of luck outside of your professional flying career. Been there, done that came back to the cockpit. BTW PLC it is because it is true.

 

[ferlo]

I used UAW as a comparison, I know they've got their problems as well. We're as blue collar as the guy installing the motor mounts at GM. That's my point.

 

[Lame Lizard]

I used UAW as a comparison, I know they've got their problems as well. We're as blue collar as the guy installing the motor mounts at GM. That's my point.

The guy at G.M. doesn't have to pass a checkride every 6 months to demonstrate his ability. His job is to install nut A into hole B. Yours is to controll a machine at 500+ m.p.h. with a hundred people on it with a federally issued certificate allowing you to do so. You have to meet professional standards according to the FAA and your check airman. Unlike the G.M. guy who is in one place in a controlled enviroment, your enviroment is ever changing and much more hostile. Now there are some airlines out there that I do wonder about the quality of people they hire. Still, they are considered white collar.

 

[CKJET]

Blue Collars with bleach added

 

[Andy]

Andy why is making $100K per year acting as a cheap hoe?. It is in the upper 5% of US income. Best of luck outside of your professional flying career. Been there, done that came back to the cockpit. BTW PLC it is because it is true.

WOW! I shoulda talked to you when I got furloughed back on '02. The best I could find is jobs that started at less than $30K and the competition was fierce.
Of course, you're not talking starting salaries. You're not even talking 5, 6 year salaries. Take a look: http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional.html
The fastest you can is Horizon, year 12. And that's flying 1000 hrs/yr.
Most sub-major carriers don't even get you to $100K/yr. Ever.

Now if we want to discuss on demand cargo ops, I guess that we can talk about USA jet. Pays $300/wk in training. Starting salary: $51.84/hr w/55 hr/mo guarantee; $2851.20/mo. So we're still talking under $40K. On call; must be able to be at the airport in less than 20 minutes when paged. Must live in Detroit area. Do they issue body armor? I hope that they at least issue a snow shovel.
I assume that this is the place that you are referring to that will eventually pay $100K/yr. Of course the devil's in the details.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Not shallow, or perhaps smart enough to care.

So do you think the folks over at schoolbusdriversinfo.com are having the same discussion? They drive our precious children around (with no seat belts, which is well beyond me) 40 at a time in various weather conditions, are specially licensed, and take drug tests also. By the way, they probably average around $12 per hour. So the question is, "Do you want to be called white or blue collar because of what you do or based on what you are paid?" I am a well-trained, well-paid heavy equipment operator ensuring my cargo makes it from point A to point B on time; be that grandma's cookies from Florida to California or med supplies from Kuwait to Baghdad. There is a certain respect (or fascination) we all receive as pilots from each collar wearer and for that I am appreciative.
Happywithmybluecollarjobandfriendswhileworkingwhitecollarhoursforwhitecollarpay,
BS
Yes, I just realized my login initials are "BS."

 

[M3pilot]

I agree. His idea of a great country is the rich getting richer and damm everyone else. IMHO, it is the middle class that has made this country great, that fights our wars and drives our economy. Sadly, we are on our way to becoming like many Latin American countries......5-10% wealthy, a small middle class, and the vast majority working poor. Something needs to change.

Sadly, the middle class doesn't fight our wars. Many of our enlisted force live in areas (near their bases) so expensive that they are on food stamps. Even in other areas they by definition are lower middle class to poverty wage earners. Enlisted make up over 80% of the military. Not unlike the majority of regional and commuter pilots in this country. I am reminded of that when I vote. More specifically when I hear of military budget cuts, balks at pay, etc. by the constituents. It is every class that has ever WORKED that has made this country great. It is capitalism and not socialism or communism that has made this country great. It is the ability to dream, get an education, and be free that has made this country great. That transcends all walks of life and all classes. It is apparent in the efforts anyone who has achieved anything "great".

 

[ferlo]

The guy at G.M. doesn't have to pass a checkride every 6 months to demonstrate his ability. His job is to install nut A into hole B. Yours is to controll a machine at 500+ m.p.h. with a hundred people on it with a federally issued certificate allowing you to do so. You have to meet professional standards according to the FAA and your check airman. Unlike the G.M. guy who is in one place in a controlled enviroment, your enviroment is ever changing and much more hostile. Now there are some airlines out there that I do wonder about the quality of people they hire. Still, they are considered white collar.

All true and totally irrelevant. Take off the blinders and look at reality. Blue as it gets.

 

[FFFO]

Blue collar guys wash their hands BEFORE they pee.

 

[AA717driver]

Man, based on your last couple of posts, you have misplaced so much of your energy and assigned WAY too much importance to things that just don't matter at all and over which you have NO control.

If I were you, I get a grip on reality and start worrying about the things that really are important and understand that BS will always be BS and there is not one damm thing you can do about it.

Flip--Thanks for being my conscience. I really do appreciate it. I feel so much better now. TC

 

[jetflier]

We are blue collar workers, dressed like white collar workers, and paid like fast food workers.

Perfect,....except I think that fast food managers make more !

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Now.... knowing that we are blur collar, let's promote ourselves like white collar.....

How do you want to be percieved by managment, the public and your fellow pilots.

Yes, we bargain for our wages like blue collar but how we act is a choice.