Pilots expected to picket Warren Buffett-owned NetJets

[fischman]

Thank you for giving up time with your family so people like G4 and myself can benefit.

I'll always remember what you guys have given up to do things like that. Pilots like G4 will look back and say he was right the pilot shortage did cause the better contract.

I know your resolve and dedication. I wasn't able to attend OMA and it kills me every time I think about it.

It's my honor to represent.

 

[Imissmypilot]

I actually believe the regime in place DOES understand how important it is to get it done.

Problem is, the man in Omaha refuses to give them the CASH to GET it done. So, a little reminder is in order.

This statement is perhaps one of the most important for all fractional pilots to remember right now - we can only get as much as they are allowed to give. Sometimes you have to be bold and creative to help them see the benefits of a well rested, well paid etc... crew. It works for owners at all levels and helping Warren along might just be what it's boiled down to now.

A guy living in the same house for 50 years is naturally going to be resistant to the needs of others, seeing their desires as fanciful and unnecessary. The only thing Warren is willing to spend extra cash on is to cover up things that embarrass him. Pickets are notoriously effective for him.

Any pilot not willing to walk the line to do their part in helping the negotiating committee get their point across to the real decision maker is selfishly delusional and grasping at straws with any excuse they come up with to avoid it. It's such a simple but proven effective technique, on Omaha especially. Why would anyone wait for some elusive pilot shortage to rear it's head in a few years when a picket could wrap this up in a few weeks?

Sorry to insert myself in your drama but I'm forward thinking about flex right now and very watchful of how it's going for you guys. Remember, all frac pilots are wanting nothing but success for you. Your win here sets the bar for the rest of us. Thank you for working not just for your group but our entire industry as well.

 

[Imissmypilot]

It is much appreciated. Any Flex pilot wearing one of our strike pins will never pay for a beer in my presence.

Unfortunately, with the advent of our own campaign and associated union paraphernalia, the company has rewritten the FOM to make this impossible. Crafty bastards. Without a CBA in place, they can do this and more at a moments notice.

 

[Diesel]

I flew with a guy after hansel got fired.

He was saying can you believe the union took responsibility for him getting fired?

He truly believed that there was no connection between the two.

Sigh.

 

[acaTerry]

I think not. Let the negotiators do their thing.

How can they do their job without support?
And really, the pilot shortage will do nothing for us. We have been "talking" for what, about 3 yrs now. And it was not the pilot shortage that got JH and co fired.
I'm no left winger, and I don't buy that 100% of the time unions are always right. But it is just a sad and very real FACT that there are jobs that NEED them. Pilots and many other aviation jobs are some of those.
I'd be willing to bet that I am even farther right winged than you, but that does not place blinders on my eyes when it comes to the reality that there are certain jobs that require a strong union. Just think where we'd be at NJA without it. Really, think. Santulli has gone. Billy and AJ have not been the saviors you guys have been celebrating them to be upon their appointments, and the culture at work is toxic. What more do you need to wake you up?
Without support, the "pilot shortage" or whatever you think will help just aint gonna happen. Political POV is only as good as it is from looking through both sides, not just being a stalwart who refuses to accept the fact that one may be wrong.
Hell, I'd love to live in a union-free world. I'd take home another $100-something a month, not to mention additional contributions like the PAC, the furlough fund, and hostage fund. But the fact is that we do not have an honest and ethical corporate America anymore. Mom and Pop businesses are run out of town by megabusinesses, and the megabusinesses are so top-heavy in distribution that it is just sinful. How do they get this to happen? Low prices. How the low prices? Screwing the workers and the suppliers. And in safety related jobs, be it aviation, emergency services, nautical fare, trucking, or any other mass transportation, safety has taken a far-back seat to making the managements rich and the stockholders happy....even though it means compromising safety and grossly under-compensating the very same workforce that made it all possible.
I'm all for capitalism, big time. But for capitalism to work, there must be a corporate ethic to take care of the workforce. We don't seem to get that through BRK. THIS is why the middle class is disappearing. I'm not a "redistribute the wealth" guy at all. F*** that welfare state stuff. BUT, the monies made must fairly be distributed among the people who made it happen.
I remember how it was in the Marines....the junior enlisted ate first, then the NCOs, then Staff NCOs, and then finally the officers. Leadership was by example, not whip cracking and self-bloating fat cats. Too bad the rest of corporate America doesn't do things the same.
Sorry for the long sermon, but you need to get past the partisan mentality. This has nothing to do with being conservative or a leftist. Its simple, black and white, right vs wrong. And until people like you do your part, it will never change.

 

[flexpilot]

Thanks Kevin,
I'll belooking for you!!

I left NJA for a major a few months ago and I'll be there in DAL helping to replace at least one freeloader. Even though I don't work there anymore, a rising tide lifts all boats, and I'll do anything I can to help you guys get what you deserve. Keep fighting!

 

[pmaestrales]

helping Warren along might just be what it's boiled down to now.

Helping Warren?... you mean Warren Buffet?... the Billionaire?

I don't think he needs your help, buddy. But kudos to you for being a great guy!

Like I said, it's laughable at this point.

THE plan is always just to extend and pretend.

Don't be silly, people like WB never give in. They just keep you thinking they will until one day you wake up and your of no use to them anymore anyway because your career is over, with a pension subject to much more counter-party risk then you realized, and extremely unlikely to survive another financial crisis.

But really, why is it so hard to see that as long as Warren knows that the EMT, union leaders, lawyers, and courts are in control of the process there is nothing for him to worry about. This is because they all have an interest in keeping this game going. No you say? Well, I say show me the contract!

The only thing that could keep Mr. B up at night is the possibility of a true organic strike. Midnight express style. And especially because there would be no Presidential interventions as we saw with Clinton in 1993, no shot, not on behalf of the wealthy private jet owners.

So even though NJA pilots have ALL of the power at their fingertips, they will be forever blind to it or just too afraid to wield it, its unthinkable to them.

There will never be an organic strike at NJA because the pilots just don't have the balls for something like that... And Warren knows this too.

 

[OPECJet]

Helping Warren?... you mean Warren Buffet?... the Billionaire?

I don't think he needs your help, buddy. But kudos to you for being a great guy!

Like I said, it's laughable at this point.

THE plan is always just to extend and pretend.

Don't be silly, people like WB never give in. They just keep you thinking they will until one day you wake up and your of no use to them anymore anyway because your career is over, with a pension subject to much more counter-party risk then you realized, and extremely unlikely to survive another financial crisis.

But really, why is it so hard to see that as long as Warren knows that the EMT, union leaders, lawyers, and courts are in control of the process there is nothing for him to worry about. This is because they all have an interest in keeping this game going. No you say? Well, I say show me the contract!

The only thing that could keep Mr. B up at night is the possibility of a true organic strike. Midnight express style. And especially because there would be no Presidential interventions as we saw with Clinton in 1993, no shot, not on behalf of the wealthy private jet owners.

So even though NJA pilots have ALL of the power at their fingertips, they will be forever blind to it or just too afraid to wield it, its unthinkable to them.

There will never be an organic strike at NJA because the pilots just don't have the balls for something like that... And Warren knows this too.

You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Buffett cares about two things. One is untouchable, the other is fair game and under attack via the court system.

 

[Pervis]

The real question is who is this guy who has been chosen to replace STW. The names change but the act never does.

 

[imacdog]

Helping Warren?... you mean Warren Buffet?... the Billionaire?

I don't think he needs your help, buddy. But kudos to you for being a great guy!

Like I said, it's laughable at this point.

THE plan is always just to extend and pretend.

Don't be silly, people like WB never give in. They just keep you thinking they will until one day you wake up and your of no use to them anymore anyway because your career is over, with a pension subject to much more counter-party risk then you realized, and extremely unlikely to survive another financial crisis.

But really, why is it so hard to see that as long as Warren knows that the EMT, union leaders, lawyers, and courts are in control of the process there is nothing for him to worry about. This is because they all have an interest in keeping this game going. No you say? Well, I say show me the contract!

The only thing that could keep Mr. B up at night is the possibility of a true organic strike. Midnight express style. And especially because there would be no Presidential interventions as we saw with Clinton in 1993, no shot, not on behalf of the wealthy private jet owners.

So even though NJA pilots have ALL of the power at their fingertips, they will be forever blind to it or just too afraid to wield it, its unthinkable to them.

There will never be an organic strike at NJA because the pilots just don't have the balls for something like that... And Warren knows this too.

"Cocaine's a helluva drug."

 

[acaTerry]

And out of the woodwork here comes this guy. Let's see: 9 posts. Account opened late last year. No information on hours, planes flown or anything. You guys thinking what I'm thinking?

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

DamnSkippy, Terry..... I'm reading that too.

Fisch, Ill be hoping to have a miracle happen and be able to take a few laps, but I am sure I'll be relegated to my original scheduled checkered today starting at 11. And I'm so damned close!

Oh, and G4, your comments have just confirmed for everyone that you are nothing more than a leech, sucking off the blood of your counterparts while they do all the hard work to get you a fair wage and work rules. SHAME ON YOU!

 

[Some guy]

I actually believe the regime in place DOES understand how important it is to get it done.

Problem is, the man in Omaha refuses to give them the CASH to GET it done. So, a little reminder is in order.

I don't have any knowledge what happens at the top. Im all for you guys getting a good deal, so long as the company remains profitable. If WB needs to hand over a loan to get it done, then that means we aren't making money. Yes I know we're making a lot. Yes I know you're worth you weight in gold. There has to be a common area in there somewhere.

Diesel, I get that 90 days is a long time. I would like to have seen it done too. At least both sides know where each other stands and can work together from there. 90 days ago, you were still on page 1.

SG

 

[Diesel]

I don't have any knowledge what happens at the top. Im all for you guys getting a good deal, so long as the company remains profitable. If WB needs to hand over a loan to get it done, then that means we aren't making money. Yes I know we're making a lot. Yes I know you're worth you weight in gold. There has to be a common area in there somewhere.



Diesel, I get that 90 days is a long time. I would like to have seen it done too. At least both sides know where each other stands and can work together from there. 90 days ago, you were still on page 1.



SG

90 days or 5 days our demands never changed.

They knew and know what we want. It's no secret.

But the games continue.

770 pilots or 60 percent of those off traveled on their own dime agree.

That's some pretty pissed off pilots.

 

[NachoMamma]

If WB needs to hand over a loan to get it done, then that means we aren't making money.

If that's actually the case, and that's a huge "IF", then it means that the business model is broken and the entire enterprise is unsustainable. Solution: Shut the entire thing down post haste. That means close the doors and liquidate the assets.

The pilots demand, and will receive, AVIATION INDUSTRY leading compensation (not the Fractional aviation industry as they so cleverly like to claim) - end of story. That is what professional labor costs in this world. You don't see people marching into a car dealership and demanding a Lexus for fifty bucks because "that's all I have".

 

[Willy21]

I left NJA for a major a few months ago and I'll be there in DAL helping to replace at least one freeloader. Even though I don't work there anymore, a rising tide lifts all boats, and I'll do anything I can to help you guys get what you deserve. Keep fighting!

It was a pleasure talking with you over lunch. Thanks for filling a gap.

 

[Imissmypilot]

If that's actually the case, and that's a huge "IF", then it means that the business model is broken and the entire enterprise is unsustainable. Solution: Shut the entire thing down post haste. That means close the doors and liquidate the assets.

The pilots demand, and will receive, AVIATION INDUSTRY leading compensation (not the Fractional aviation industry as they so cleverly like to claim) - end of story. That is what professional labor costs in this world. You don't see people marching into a car dealership and demanding a Lexus for fifty bucks because "that's all I have".

^^^ yeh, what this guy said!

Highlighting this post because I intend to use it when Flexjet gets to the point of negotiations. Our Options brethren have been so beat down by compensation I worry they will lose sight of the goal post for any bump. Flexjet has been lulled into the hypnosis of a neo-capitalistic agenda where they almost think their being done a favor by having a smart she'll gaming con man at the helm even if it means we're not getting our due compensation (like our missing bonus which barely caused a ripple on the pond). We'll need the common sense of Nacho Mamma to bring us into solidarity on this issue.

I support the rally cry of NJA getting all they're asking for and then some. If these companies would quit with the paper games that help them claim the money isn't there you'd see even in times of lean, certain sectors are making money hand over fist in fractionals. It's high time the ones who grease the wheels of the enterprise get their fair share.

NJA will set the bar with this contract. It is up to every - and I mean EVERY - fractional pilot regardless of your stupid excuses - to encourage and support the highest bar possible.

Trust me, what the pilots are asking for won't even come close to breaking the viability of the model. It will just require the suits to get more creative in their siphoning skills.

 

[Pervis]

When a company can afford to ferry a package of Oreo cookies from one airport to another so a different jet can fly the pax with those precious Oreos, I think they can afford to pay the frontline troops.

When a company can ferry a jet to pick up a pilot to ferry him home to save that dreaded after midnight, only to ferry out again (3 total ferry legs), I think they can affor to pay the frontline troops.

When a company increases owner monthly management fees (that's where pilot salaries come from) year after year yet hasn't paid COLA, I think they can afford to pay the frontline troops.

When a company claims minimal average annual profits after including the Great Recession and all losses incurred, not to mention paying down debt by nearly $2 BILLION, I think they can afford to pay the frontline troops.

 

[realityman]

I think not. Let the negotiators do their thing.

I'm trying to come up with some way of countering this...........opinion, without becoming insulting.

Let's just say you are INTENTIONALLY closing your eyes to what needs to be done because you're either too scared, too lazy, or just a union leech (someone who gains benefit of the work of others with no input of their own) or a combination of all of the above.

I mean, sheesh! Your UNION LEADERSHIP went to great lengths, trouble, and expense to set these pickets up. Does that sound to you like they'd prefer we all stay home and "Let the negotiators do their thing."?

Us muckity-muck message board posters didn't set these pickets up, your union did. They specifically sent out multiple communications to the membership to either walk or donate so someone else could walk. These are the folks directly involved with getting us a new CBA and an inside knowledge of how things are going. And these very people have told you in no uncertain terms that it's time for ALL OF US to re-engage to make this happen.

I'd love to hear your reasoning on how on earth you came to the conclusion that letting the so-called pilot shortage work its magic combined with letting the negotiators "do their thing" is going to yield any positive results when the most experienced and in charge people we have are flat out TELLING us we need to do things like walk in these pickets.

And if you think the regionals are going to be paying decent wages anytime soon because of the pilot shortage, you're drinking your bath water. They've been parking planes for a while now due to lack of pilots. Aside from some signing bonuses, do you see any of them rushing in to adjust their contracts to pay more? The truth is, even if they wanted to pay more (they don't), they actually can't because of the way their contracts are structured with the majors. They don't have the ability to raise fares willy-nilly to cover increased labor costs.

But keep up with the excuses. They aren't even reaching the level of pathetic anymore. Your union leadership sets up pickets and you think it means they're asking us to just let the negotiators "do their thing".:erm:

 

[Some guy]

So tell me if I understand correctly after reading through these posts. If the company can't afford to pay you more than the top paying air carrier (industry leading),then the model is broken and we might as well shut down. Also because the company knew the demands 90 days ago, then this should have been done 89 days ago because you refuse to negotiate. Is this a fair assessment?

Also, someone mentioned assets. What assets? We don't have any assets.

SG

 

[NachoMamma]

So tell me if I understand correctly after reading through these posts. If the company can't afford to pay you more than the top paying air carrier (industry leading),then the model is broken and we might as well shut down.

SG

On par with the highest paid air carriers, yes. That is correct. ie: Delta, Southwest, and FedEx.

While, assuming this is actually the case, they SHOULD shut the company down, eventually it will no longer be the company's decision to make.

 

[T-1GUY]

Didn't two BILLiON assets flow into warrens pockets? I think they knew the pilot asks about four years ago...

 

[Some guy]

On par with the highest paid air carriers, yes. That is correct. ie: Delta, Southwest, and FedEx.

While, assuming this is actually the case, they SHOULD shut the company down, eventually it will no longer be the company's decision to make.

Thanks for the honest reply. I know two sides have a different view on how much the company actually makes. I have no idea aside from what BH reports every quarter. I'm not a finance guy, so I wouldn't know.

I don't understand the concept of demanding a salary at the risk of shutting the company down. $300k is great, but if it only lasts 3 years you're SOL when the market floods with 3000 pilots. I do understand you wanting to be on par those carriers, but aren't they paid based on aircraft class or weight? Their pilots over the course of the day carry more revenue than we do. I know your daily duties include quite a bit more than a legacy pilot / crew. Read my posts over the years, you'll never see me say you aren't worthy of better pay. I just don't understand the "I want every penny of profit for me until we shut it down" thought process. We're already the costliest of the on demand carriers, so I don't think raising prices is the best answer either.

SG

 

[Some guy]

Didn't two BILLiON assets flow into warrens pockets? I think they knew the pilot asks about four years ago...

That was loaned money that is being paid back. I don't know if payments on owed money is an asset. The comment I referred to said we should sell our assets. We don't have any assets that I'm aware of aside from a share in our own program.

SG

 

[Diesel]

Thanks for the honest reply. I know two sides have a different view on how much the company actually makes. I have no idea aside from what BH reports every quarter. I'm not a finance guy, so I wouldn't know.



I don't understand the concept of demanding a salary at the risk of shutting the company down. $300k is great, but if it only lasts 3 years you're SOL when the market floods with 3000 pilots. I do understand you wanting to be on par those carriers, but aren't they paid based on aircraft class or weight? Their pilots over the course of the day carry more revenue than we do. I know your daily duties include quite a bit more than a legacy pilot / crew. Read my posts over the years, you'll never see me say you aren't worthy of better pay. I just don't understand the "I want every penny of profit for me until we shut it down" thought process. We're already the costliest of the on demand carriers, so I don't think raising prices is the best answer either.



SG

Ok I'll put it this way.

Your job can be outsourced to India for a fraction of the cost. Why should warren pay you so much. You're already making more than everyone else in your field.

How do you feel about that? Don't you think the company should farm out your work to India to save money?

I mean we're the costliest so why don't we start cutting costs?

 

[brokeflyer]

When a company can afford to ferry a package of Oreo cookies from one airport to another so a different jet can fly the pax with those precious Oreos, I think they can afford to pay the frontline troops.

lol really? is that true they did that?

 

[Pervis]

lol really? is that true they did that?

Yes. You can't make that stuff up.

 

[ghostrider64]

Apparently, 780 "off duty" netjets pilots completely disagree with the likes of G4, he and his ilk are the outliers!

Time for our entire industry to stand the F up!!!!!!

 

[NachoMamma]

I don't understand the concept of demanding a salary at the risk of shutting the company down.

(minimum wage laws aside) If you owned a McDonald's franchise, but could only afford to keep it open if you paid your employees $0.09/hour, would you understand it then? Shouldn't the employees be content with superficial praise (by being called "Team Member" and the "Best fast food workers in the industry") in lieu of pay? Afterall, I'm sure you'd appreciate their hard work and sacrifice for YOUR bottom line, wouldn't you?

$300k is great, but if it only lasts 3 years you're SOL when the market floods with 3000 pilots. I do understand you wanting to be on par those carriers, but aren't they paid based on aircraft class or weight? Their pilots over the course of the day carry more revenue than we do.

It doesn't matter what their revenue stream is. The fact is that there is a going rate for compensation for the "best pilots in the industry" flying the wealthiest people in the world. That going wage is a reflection (withing the range) of the highest paying labor contracts in the AVIATION industry. If an empolyer can't afford to pay the industry wage, then it is officially not a viable business model, and it will eventually fail - as it should.

$300k is not necessarily the requirement either...a salary reflecting the highest paid aviation labor contracts is the goal, and that number needs to be arrived at based on what other premier carriers are being paid.

I know your daily duties include quite a bit more than a legacy pilot / crew. Read my posts over the years, you'll never see me say you aren't worthy of better pay. I just don't understand the "I want every penny of profit for me until we shut it down" thought process. We're already the costliest of the on demand carriers, so I don't think raising prices is the best answer either.

This is a monumental misconception from the other side of the bargaining table - or else it's just shameless propaganda. The union does not now, nor has it ever, demanded "every penny of profit"...that would be silly. What they demand is a wage commensurate with the highest paid aviation contracts currently operating - that's it. Once that goal is achieved, the company, and the BH shareholders, are welcome to every additional penny they bring in. We call that 'profit'. What they don't get to do is short their single greatest labor asset (whether its done for legitimate or illegitimate purposes) just because they're greedy. If there truly is no profit left to be had, then you can - and should, shut it down.

 

[Some guy]

(minimum wage laws aside) If you owned a McDonald's franchise, but could only afford to keep it open if you paid your employees $0.09/hour, would you understand it then? Shouldn't the employees be content with superficial praise (by being called "Team Member" and the "Best fast food workers in the industry") in lieu of pay? Afterall, I'm sure you'd appreciate their hard work and sacrifice for YOUR bottom line, wouldn't you?



It doesn't matter what their revenue stream is. The fact is that there is a going rate for compensation for the "best pilots in the industry" flying the wealthiest people in the world. That going wage is a reflection (withing the range) of the highest paying labor contracts in the AVIATION industry. If an empolyer can't afford to pay the industry wage, then it is officially not a viable business model, and it will eventually fail - as it should.

$300k is not necessarily the requirement either...a salary reflecting the highest paid aviation labor contracts is the goal, and that number needs to be arrived at based on what other premier carriers are being paid.



This is a monumental misconception from the other side of the bargaining table - or else it's just shameless propaganda. The union does not now, nor has it ever, demanded "every penny of profit"...that would be silly. What they demand is a wage commensurate with the highest paid aviation contracts currently operating - that's it. Once that goal is achieved, the company, and the BH shareholders, are welcome to every additional penny they bring in. We call that 'profit'. What they don't get to do is short their single greatest labor asset (whether its done for legitimate or illegitimate purposes) just because they're greedy. If there truly is no profit left to be had, then you can - and should, shut it down.

If the going rate in the McDs industry is .07 and I'm paying .09, sure I might be willing to go .11, but not at the risk of shutting down. At this point, I don't think think any of us know how far apart the two groups are. Maybe they're in the same neighborhood. The idea I get reading some of these posts are that "we have a demand, and there is no negotiation room".

Just because the person in the back is wealthy, doesn't mean anything. I still think the 737 pilot is generating more revenue day to day than you do. You likely work harder and have the same ratings with more responsibilities, but the business models are different. I'll bet our maintenance costs are higher. Our utilization rate (owner vs ferry) legs is much lower. We cover those costs. Maybe you're right and the business model doesn't work. In my mind, I'd take my reasonable paycheck with career stability rather than force the best contract in the industry only to have the Obama economy catch up to us and lose my job in 3 years.

I'm not saying your opinion is wrong nor am I saying you're not worth it. I just don't understand the "id rather not have a job" ideology.

300 was a number I threw out there. I have no idea what the number is.

I haven't seen any propaganda shaming anyone. There was an email recently saying talks continue beyond the 90 day window with regards to financials, but I didn't perceive it as bashing the union.

SG