Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

[Bavarian Chef]

This message is hidden because 8vATE is on your ignore list.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Let's see, in the same number of posts, I see Airtran trying to dump NPA for ALPA; APA walks out during talks with management; UsAir dump ALPA for their own union and still operate a "merged" airline as two separate ones for 3 years; furloughed union pilots at United, American, Spirit, Airtran, Alaska, NWA maybe Continental-- so why not unionize Jetblue!!! Lets dump 300 pilots we don't need and displace another 200... I don't care, the union will protect ME, the senior guy... At least my productivity, paycheck, and benefits will increase in the USA's most ademic economic period in history!!! Watch what our self-appointed leaders at JBPA will provide for us!!! I can't wait!!!!

 

[Blue Dude]

Don't even go there with that self-appointed leaders stuff again. You've been corrected on this issue more than once. I can only assume that you are deliberately choosing not to understand. Notice that I'm doing you the courtesy of assuming that you're intelligent enough to understand. Don't prove me wrong.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Anyway.....




looks like Glenn Tilton of UAL will be leading JB management at the ATA....

If JB management can join an Association, why not the JB pilots?

 

[StaySeated]

What I think is really weird is the fact that the Jet Blue Pilots Association hasn't used the fact of this "Values Committee" to petition the NMB for union status.

"Values Committees", or any other type of committee that is company sponsored and takes the place of union duties is a "de facto" admission that the workforce is unionized.

It doesn't even take a card vote to certify, the NMB can (and has) simply said, "If it walks and talks like a union, it is a union."

That's why so many companies are loath to give any power to employee committees--they get socked with a representation decision they don't want if they cross the line between advisory and proto-union constructs.

JBLU already has a union on its property.

It's not a stretch to say that the presence of a standardized written contract with the pilots, the presence of a values committee (what does "PVC" stand for anyway?) and other assorted "if you had a union, they'd be doing this for you, we'll just do it so you don't feel you need a union" tidbits add up to a union on the property.

In my view, and I studied quite a bit of labor law in college, Jet Blue already is unionized and is only a hair's breadth away from certification as such.

If the company bends over so far backwards to give you what a union would give you to keep a union off the property, it can run the risk of going too far and being considered a company-sponsered union.

There's a lot of case history of this, but it's mostly a long time ago, but the case history is why so many companies avoid anything that looks like a company-sponsored union. They start out trying to do good, then oops, they created their own union on the property.

you are correct but the anti-union ilk has refined their argument and they actually want these "committees". During the union drive they will compare their committee to the eventual organized labor group and state that 1)the committee works already, why change it, and b)you will destroy the relationship we have developed with the committee if you organize and iii)you don't pay dues to the committee why should you pay xx% to those evil ibt/alpa/afa/blah blah blah. Group hug.

At my airline they actually allow the unorganized labor groups to "vote" on things like work rules and concessions (we are in bk). Never mind the fact that the vote is totally meaningless and no party in the unorganized group has had a say in what gets voted upon. These are the steps that company's take to avoid organized labor.

Again, I agree with what you are saying but not too long ago some little bean counter in the corner of the room thought that maybe it would be a pretty good idea to form a committee. I can tell you from sitting on the sidelines that it has bought JB management a year or two free from those pesky little CBA's.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Let's see, in the same number of posts, I see Airtran trying to dump NPA for ALPA; APA walks out during talks with management; UsAir dump ALPA for their own union and still operate a "merged" airline as two separate ones for 3 years; furloughed union pilots at United, American, Spirit, Airtran, Alaska, NWA maybe Continental-- so why not unionize Jetblue!!! Lets dump 300 pilots we don't need and displace another 200... I don't care, the union will protect ME, the senior guy... At least my productivity, paycheck, and benefits will increase in the USA's most ademic economic period in history!!! Watch what our self-appointed leaders at JBPA will provide for us!!! I can't wait!!!!

I find it hard to believe that a grown man is typing this stuff.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Will you DORKS please take this to another thread?

Seriously, this thread is about JB and the NMB -- not a discussion about the Founding Fathers, God, the evolution of the Union, the Magna Carta, or whether Sleestacks on the TV show "The Land of the Lost" harmed an entire generation of children.

START ANOTHER F-IN THREAD YOU JAGNUTS.
__________________
...I think military guys can't think outside of the box, and they are afraid of weather. -- the SWA/FO

I can't believe a grown adult can write this stuff... You're too personal for a Navy guy, maybe that's why they have their names imprinted on their rear pant pockets...

 

[clickclickboom]

Dont forget guys remember that big raise you got in 03 that brought you up from the $80-$90 per hour capt pay on that 170,000lb Airbus?


Inflation from Feb 2000 to Current is 27.55%

You got a nice raise and today your pay is just even with inflation compared to those old rates.

Yes you have taken a 3-4% pay cut every year on property here. You might be happy with that but I didnt take a job here that will give me dollar for dollar less buying power per year.

I add no emotion to my decision making process. I dont fall for all of this company anti union propoganda. Dave's Dec 1st letter just further reinforces my decision to vote yes.

Let me quote:

" Some pilots believe we purposefully ignored many elements of this year pilot compensation review board( PCRB) ( We didnt in fact, we created the concept of the Permanent Working Committees to address those items we couldnt action immediately- A concept that we were unable to action at this time because of the representation filing with the National Mediation Board,)

What truly unsettles me is that those of you making over $100,000 per year here just seem to be blinded to the fact that you make a good salary. YOU SHOULDNT NEED TO TAKE A PAYCUT YEARLY OR OFFSET YOUR LOSS WITH SENIORITY.

To me its a simple business decision. We have been manipulated for the last 4 years and the company has proven not once, not twice but three years in a row that they will ignore the findingsof the pcrb put their own spin on it and then rob peter to pay paul.

Yes Year 5 Capts thanks for calling in sick on that 25 hour 4 day and losing $2000 of pay to subsidize my 4th year $12,000 raise.

I will happily give an additional 1% of my pay to force the company to play by the rules and not their own even if it takes 3 years or more to get a contract in place.

PS: I would not vote on a contract that causes the company financial harm but I will certainly push for adequate benefits with LOL protections and workrules that do not permit our junior lineholders to fly 14 hour 4 day non commutable trips. My hourly pay can come last.

I want long term success for Jetblue but I wont finance it on my back.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

At the next pow-wow someone should ask the big boys about the bonus they get if a union drive gets defeated.

Part of their "metric" of performance tied to bonus

 

[clickclickboom]

Let's see, in the same number of posts, I see Airtran trying to dump NPA for ALPA; APA walks out during talks with management; UsAir dump ALPA for their own union and still operate a "merged" airline as two separate ones for 3 years; furloughed union pilots at United, American, Spirit, Airtran, Alaska, NWA maybe Continental-- so why not unionize Jetblue!!! Lets dump 300 pilots we don't need and displace another 200... I don't care, the union will protect ME, the senior guy... At least my productivity, paycheck, and benefits will increase in the USA's most ademic economic period in history!!! Watch what our self-appointed leaders at JBPA will provide for us!!! I can't wait!!!!

And just to set the record straight there is NOT going to be 300 Furloughs the second a union is voted in. that is nothing but company issued FUD FEAR, UNCERTAINTY AND DOUBT !!! It is tactic #1.

We are not 300 fat that number was thrown out when oil was in the run up to $147 a barrell and jetblue was dealing with the reality that selling an additional 15 aircraft was in the works in addition to the shared sacrifice of potential 55-60 hour monthly bid divisors.

Take a look at the daily reserves. Most days end up in the red or close. Every day of every weekend are always red.

Plus these part time gigs and opt out programs were only posted as 10 slots each??!!

Plus we are expecting to hire up to 40 new hires into the 190 into the new year.

Dont get me wrong I love other opinions that is how people learn new things but your rant is either out of ignorance with your rosy current situation OR you just take any info thrown at you hook line and sinker

.....

 

[82spukram]

Take this for what its worth but 190 class of 16 mid February. Friend works in the training department. So I doubt they are 300 over staffed.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

And just to set the record straight there is NOT going to be 300 Furloughs the second a union is voted in. that is nothing but company issued FUD FEAR, UNCERTAINTY AND DOUBT !!! It is tactic #1.

We are not 300 fat that number was thrown out when oil was in the run up to $147 a barrell and jetblue was dealing with the reality that selling an additional 15 aircraft was in the works in addition to the shared sacrifice of potential 55-60 hour monthly bid divisors.

Take a look at the daily reserves. Most days end up in the red or close. Every day of every weekend are always red.

Plus these part time gigs and opt out programs were only posted as 10 slots each??!!

Plus we are expecting to hire up to 40 new hires into the 190 into the new year.

Dont get me wrong I love other opinions that is how people learn new things but your rant is either out of ignorance with your rosy current situation OR you just take any info thrown at you hook line and sinker

.....

Forecast for travel in 2009 is looking very dismal. It doesn't matter if oil is at $25/barrel when no one is flying-- we're still not going to make any money... As for the 300 possible furloughs, that number has been around for a while. If you look at the current bid divisors, one can assume that to get to 85+ hours again, we can lop off at least a few FOs. Additionally, our reserves are not flying- look at the currencies for these guys who are flying 20 hour months at best in some bases, some not flying at all!!!

So, if you want a change in the way our relationship is with management and the current NO FURLOUGHS, then vote for JBPA. I want to see what JBPA can deliver in this economic time of crisis-- you'll be wishing we had status quo when the company comes asking for concessions and starts furloughing just like Airtran, Spirit, United, American, Alaska, NWA, and Delta have done in the past and will do in the future. Nothing like a 100% pay cut!!!

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Take this for what its worth but 190 class of 16 mid February. Friend works in the training department. So I doubt they are 300 over staffed.

This has come to fruition due to the non-sale of a few E-190s. When the vote is done in February, and it goes the way of JBPA-- EVERYTHING COMES OFF THE TABLE. And you know what, it might not stop at 300!!!!

And thanks to JBPA, we're not going to see anything positive from management until the vote is complete. From Dave Barger, " in fact, we created the concept of the Permanent Working Committees to address those items we couldn't action immediately- a concept that we are unable to action at this time because of the representation filing with the NMB."

So thanks, JBPA for slowing or even stopping what was put forward to possibly move things in the right direction for pilots. Thank you very much...

 

[Blue Dude]

So thanks, JBPA for slowing or even stopping what was put forward to possibly move things in the right direction for pilots. Thank you very much...

Yes, we were breathlessly awaiting myriad, significant improvements in the mid-Nov to early-Feb timeframe, is that what you're saying? Bayou, they weren't even going to seat the new committees until after that. I can't believe you're that naive.

 

[PCL_128]

I want to see what JBPA can deliver in this economic time of crisis-- you'll be wishing we had status quo when the company comes asking for concessions and starts furloughing just like Airtran

We're recalling pilots and rescinding displacements, actually. The company says advance bookings are looking great for next year and we're expecting an $80 million profit for the year. But thanks for thinking about us.

As for status quo, your no-furlough clause in the individual 5-year contracts remains in effect until a new collective bargaining agreement is signed under JBPA, so there won't be any furloughs as soon as JBPA gets elected. That fear mongering is ridiculous.

Good luck to the JBPA pilots.

 

[82spukram]

Blue Bayou,

Whats your story?
I respect very much so your right and choice not to vote a union in. So why do you not respect others and quickly blame JBPA when at least 35% of us believe that the current processes is not working, and for what is it worth it is not JBPA that is your problem it is your fellow pilot who have made this happen. I pick up a lot of bitterness towards a union which I would imagine you were done in by one at the last company or do you believe that a union is just over all bad for JetBlue long term viability? Or do you think that the company will give us 13 to 14% and establish a B fund for retirement benefits? Better Health benefits? Also what about a merger (2 million will go fast with an unprecedented dealing with 2000 contracts)? Just wondering and in no way am trying to bate you. I just see you say a lot about JBPA and I would like to know how these things are going to be fixed when they just had their great chance to do in April and May while they were putting together the PCRB action plan. Any rate I am just interested. (oh yeah if you do not want to respond here free to PM or you can find me on bluepilots under the same screen name)

An E190 FO

 

[StarChecker]

So thanks, JBPA for slowing or even stopping what was put forward to possibly move things in the right direction for pilots. Thank you very much...

Last time you posted something like this...I couldn't believe you could be so foolish. But now that you've done it again...I'm forced to believe that you're just not that smart.

Are you freakin' kidding me? You still believe that improvements were right around the corner?....if only that pesky JBPA didn't come along....we'd be getting email after email about pay raises...trip/night rigs....LOL coverage....better health care....no more contract pilots flying our planes...

Really scary....

Please open your eyes...they had quite a few years to make things right. Years when we were very profitable. And now...all of a sudden....on the brink of a union election...Dave "gets it"....f-ing spare me.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Will you DORKS please take this to another thread?

Seriously, this thread is about JB and the NMB -- not a discussion about the Founding Fathers, God, the evolution of the Union, the Magna Carta, or whether Sleestacks on the TV show "The Land of the Lost" harmed an entire generation of children.

START ANOTHER F-IN THREAD YOU JAGNUTS.
__________________
...I think military guys can't think outside of the box, and they are afraid of weather. -- the SWA/FO

I couldn't have said it better myself ...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Take this for what its worth but 190 class of 16 mid February. Friend works in the training department. So I doubt they are 300 over staffed.

Me either on the overmanning. I got 84 hr line in November, 93 in December.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

So thanks, JBPA for slowing or even stopping what was put forward to possibly move things in the right direction for pilots. Thank you very much...

You mean thanks JBPA (and the 700-1000 pilots standing by the JBPA).

Once again -- Colonel Beard, it's your brethren that have initiated this effort. Not some fringe group that doesn't care about JetBlue. Your fellow pilots. That's the JBPA.

 

[bluesideup340]

The Leverage we have with the threat of a Union at JB is much better than actually having a Union.
Imagine this, JBPA gets 49% of the votes. That would be a hell of a message to JB Executive Crew to respond with improvements to our pay and benefits.
Just think about that when you get your ballot.

 

[Lebowski]

The Leverage we have with the threat of a Union at JB is much better than actually having a Union.
Imagine this, JBPA gets 49% of the votes. That would be a hell of a message to JB Executive Crew to respond with improvements to our pay and benefits.
Just think about that when you get your ballot.

Is the "leverage" you're talking about going to prevent penstroke policy changes from occuring if JBPA is not voted in? How is that going to work?

I've been through a number of union drives and this argument always comes up by anti-union pilots. I don't really get it. Maybe someone can explain exactly how the "leverage" of a threat is better than a formalized contract between the company and its career employees.

 

[Lebowski]

The Leverage we have with the threat of a Union at JB is much better than actually having a Union.
Imagine this, JBPA gets 49% of the votes. That would be a hell of a message to JB Executive Crew to respond with improvements to our pay and benefits.
Just think about that when you get your ballot.

I almost forgot...how many times do you want to send a "hell of a message" to management? I think the PCRB report was a loud message that was essentially ignored. Why? There's no real motivation to address a non-organized group.

By the way, Blueside...no personal beef with you...I've just seen this argument over and over again. The only thing that happens after a failed union drive, regardless of how close it comes to success, is that management breathes a collective sigh of relief when it's over because they won. Then they can back to not addressing the concerns of their professional pilots.

 

[bluesideup340]

Hi Lebowski
First of all you do have a contract with the company. Sure it might not address all your personal needs and preferences. But to believe a CBA would make all the ills of our industry, and for that matter JB, disappear is an unrealistic expectation, which will be in particular true when JBPA signs the first CBA. I am sure you know the first CBA will not be much better than what we currently have. Mainly because Unions due can not and will not be collect until we have a CBA.
So JBPA will have to balance there limited resources (i.e. Money, time) very carefully which will affect there bargaining position as a function of (Strength of bargaining position = Money / Time)

On the other side of the table is the company. Looking at JetBlue’s past history the company made improvement to our contract on an annual bases. Not saying that all the decision and improvements were always spot on, but no one can argue with our success, job security, and financial strength as an Airline.

Once a union is in place the company will have to give up some of the flexibility to manage JetBlue’s business and commit to long-term somewhat rigid CBA language that will affect the organization for the next 5 years. Making prediction on industry changes, in particular in our current economic situation, is very difficult and JB’s negotiator will be very careful to enter into long-term commitments. Hence, the negotiator has little motivation to bring negotiations to a quick end. Because, by holding out as long as possible, weakens the bargaining position of the Union. Of course, that isn’t news to anyone that is why CBA negotiations take years and even longer for the first CBAs. Unless the Union, in the case of a first contract, accepts very basic terms that do not change the status quo by much.

Therefore the threat of a Union provides more leverage than a Union. A 49% vote would show we are capable to have a Union if our concerns regarding merger or health care aren’t address. In all fairness, the last contract was not great and I wasn’t impressed with it. But given the Fuel Price and the economic situation I know it was the best possible and most sensible solution. Without a doubt, JB is not perfect but neither is a Union.

Now let me be clear here, I am not against Unions per se. I do believe that company’s that have Unions, for the most part, deserved a Union because they failed to find the right balance between the needs of the Business and the requirements of their employees. But in the case of JB, improvements and progress are made and we do have an open unfiltered line of communication so why change it. JB and its Pilots neither needs nor deserves a Union yet.

Last but not least, JBPA claim to address the professional needs of all Pilots at JetBlue is unrealistic, but a great campaign gimmick. No CBA or JB contract will ever address all of our 2000 individual needs and requirements. I am just not willing to exchange the devil I know with the unknown.

 

[StarChecker]

But in the case of JB, improvements and progress are made and we do have an open unfiltered line of communication so why change it.

Unfiltered? Are you mad?

Did you miss the spin at the PCRB meetings? That was unfiltered? That rhetoric was filtered more than most campaign speeches. I could smell it over the phone.

Did you negotiate/vote on any of the latest PCRB "improvements"? because I didn't. And you know what....I never will because I don't have a CBA. You will just be taking whatever the company wants to give you until we have a CBA. They had a 64 page document plainly showing our shortcomings...and they responded in 8 pages. What could we do about it.....NOTHING.

So what do I do now if I think it sucks that I have to pay $1400/year for my prescriptions that used to cost me $300/year at my crappy regional? Same prescriptions....4.5 TIMES MORE OUT OF POCKET. WHAT DO I DO? Send a letter to the CP? Benefits? John Ross? Dave?

USELESS

I'd rather have the ability to vote on changes to my pay/benefits. No...there is no guarantee that any of it will definitely improve with a CBA and anyone who thinks so is a nitwit. But what is the alternative? What we have now doesn't work...how many more PCRB abortions will it take for you to realize that.

 

[Caveman]

Once a union is in place the company will have to give up some of the flexibility to manage JetBlue’s business and commit to long-term somewhat rigid CBA language that will affect the organization for the next 5 years. Making prediction on industry changes, in particular in our current economic situation, is very difficult and JB’s negotiator will be very careful to enter into long-term commitments. Hence, the negotiator has little motivation to bring negotiations to a quick end. Because, by holding out as long as possible, weakens the bargaining position of the Union. Of course, that isn’t news to anyone that is why CBA negotiations take years and even longer for the first CBAs. Unless the Union, in the case of a first contract, accepts very basic terms that do not change the status quo by much.

They enter into long term contracts with Airbus and the Port Authority. Does that hinder their abilitity to be flexible too? Why should a 3-5 year contract with the pilots be any different? Nobody else JetBlue deals with operates without a written binding agreement. Why should employees be any different?

 

[Draginass]

When Jetblue gets sold, you'd better have a contract with a solid successorship clause.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

You mean thanks JBPA (and the 700-1000 pilots standing by the JBPA).

Once again -- Colonel Beard, it's your brethren that have initiated this effort. Not some fringe group that doesn't care about JetBlue. Your fellow pilots. That's the JBPA.

First of all, COL Beard flew B-52s so you have the wrong guy! Additionally, 35% of the pilots showed interest in JBPA, they did not vote for it, YET. If the economy continues on its pace, I think you'll find that in the end-- JBLU pilots will not vote for JBPA, they'd rather keep their jobs and be hopeful for a more meaningful existence in the future, hopefully, as the economy and our company prospers...

 

[8vATE]

Bavarian Brainpower

I find it hard to believe that a grown man is typing this stuff.

Just another Bavarian retort to a pragmatic post here on Flight Info.

ALL Bow Down to Barvaria Chefs!

 

[8vATE]

Me either on the overmanning. I got 84 hr line in November, 93 in December.

We get it!

It's all about you.