Pilot reached snoozing altitude?

[Sandstorm]

Accusation: Pilot reached snoozing altitude
Friday, July 18, 2003 Posted: 12:42 PM EDT (1642 GMT)


FORT LAUDERDALE, Florida (AP) -- A charter pilot resigned Friday after a videotape surfaced apparently showing him sleeping during a flight from the Bahamas while a co-pilot flew the plane.

The man was the captain on a Walker's International flight from Walker's Cay to Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood International Airport last Sunday. Fifteen passengers were onboard.

The incident is under investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration. Neither the agency nor the company would release the pilot's name.

A videotape taken by passenger Chris Ballard shows the pilot with his eyes closed and apparently sleeping during the flight.

He said the co-pilot, who was flying the plane, noticed him taping the pilot and a woman taking photographs.

"He didn't wake him up, so I wasn't going to get up and go into their area and wake him up myself," Ballard told CNN.

[Under FAA regulations] when two pilots are necessary for a flight, then they are both required to remain awake, alert and performing their flight-related duties.
-- Kathleen Bergen, FAA spokeswoman


Bill Jones, Walker International's general manager, said the man had been a charter pilot with the company for about a year. He said the man denied he was sleeping during the 55-minute flight, but decided that the videotape and the resulting publicity "made a difficult situation."

"He thought it was the best thing to step down," Jones said.

Jones said the co-pilot "reports that at no time was he aware that the other pilot was asleep." He said interviews with about half of the passengers revealed an uneventful flight and no signs that one of the pilots was asleep.

Jones said: "When I see the video it looks very bad." He said the pilot does not have a lawyer. The pilot did not immediately return a phone message left with the company, which flies about six round trips to the Bahamas every week.

Kathleen Bergen, an FAA spokeswoman in Atlanta, said the pilot faces sanctions ranging from a warning letter to a suspension or revocation of his pilot's certificate.

"I would not assume the pilot is guilty based on news reports. We have to do our own thorough investigation," she said.

Bergen said under FAA regulations, "when two pilots are necessary for a flight, then they are both required to remain awake, alert and performing their flight-related duties."

 

[WSurf]

Whatever, Cat Naps are the norm for most regional pilots!!! Try working a 14hr day with 8 legs in the 95 degree summer heat... Taking a break at cruise is fine, that way we are alert at the most critical phase of flight.. Descents, approaches, TO's and Climbs...if I am at FL240 for 1 hr. I will take a 10-15 min. break and it makes the world of difference.

 

[jetexas]

It would be nice if this incident awakens the American public to the absolutely lousy and dangerous rest rules we have. An 8 or 9 hour overnight, where 'van time' to the hotel is considered "rest" is not adequate. Especially if you fly 4,5,6+ legs a day and have a 14-16 hour duty day. It should be a min of 10 hours and at least 9 hours "behind the door".
Of course, the public will see this footage and think he's "just another one of those $250,000 a year pilots".

 

[Sphincter Boy]

Of course, the public will see this footage and think he's "just another one of those $250,000 a year pilots".

Dude, don't get me started.

 

[stillaboo]

I thought I heard once that a FE 'flew' a 727 for most of the cruise after both the Capt. and FO dozed off, and then woke them up on descent.

I'm not that familiar with the FE panel, and what he can reach, but could a FE work the radios and make cruise climbs, cruise descents, and course changes by himself? I wanted to pull the bullsh!t card, but I didn't know for sure.

Can this happen?

Thanks,
-Boo!

 

[Mayday911]

Most ariplanes with F/Es have three or four audio control panels. Allowing the F/E to recieve and transmit over any installed Comms. As far as flying the airplane....it would depend on where the autopilot is installed and how far the individual wanted to get up and reach.

It is definetely possible.

Mayday.

 

[acaTerry]

It would be nice if this incident awakens the American public to the absolutely lousy and dangerous rest rules we have. An 8 or 9 hour overnight, where 'van time' to the hotel is considered "rest" is not adequate. Especially if you fly 4,5,6+ legs a day and have a 14-16 hour duty day. It should be a min of 10 hours and at least 9 hours "behind the door".
Of course, the public will see this footage and think he's "just another one of those $250,000 a year pilots".

Bingo.

 

[Thedude]

I guarntee you that an F/E can fly the 727 while in cruise from the F/E seat. The seat goes far enough foward that you can reach the auto-pilot control head and with a little streatching you can also reach the GPS head. I can do it....even for a short guy like me.

 

[dhc8fo]

thank god for cockpit doors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hmmm]

It has always been the norm. I remember reading somewhere in a gov book a study by the FAA showing it benificial. In fact yes I remember that is exactly correct. The study was conducted with FAA sanction. Got to find it somwhere. And I did fly the DC8 as an FE from the FE seat when my buddies were asleep and woke them a hundred miles out twice. But then again I had flown flights from the right and left seat when the Capt or FO was asleep in my FE seat. In mountainous areas no less. Go figure.

 

[CatYaaak]

It would be nice if this incident awakens the American public to the absolutely lousy and dangerous rest rules we have.

What, do you think the "American public" should go out and walk a picket line for you? March on Washington? Write their congressmen? If you can't perform or stay awake, call in fatigued like the regs require you to do. If you show up for work, they're trusting you to do your job, remember?

 

[dhc8fo]

yeah, if it were only that easy. not too sure who you work for (if a regional at all), but just because they made you a crappy schedule and the van ride took two hours longer than it should have and you only got 3-4 hours of sleep isn't their concern. Then when you call in fatigued, you get the call from the chief pilot and an "occurance" that will evetually lose your your job. Ask any regional pilot. intimidation forces many pilots to do stupid things. it isn't right, but to dismiss it as a simple decision is not fair.

 

[GCD]

No one has said a word about the punk FO who called attention to the CA. He was motioning to the passengers to look at the sleeping CA, and laughing his a** off. I think the FAA needs to take action on the FO for not using proper CRM to wake the CA up. The FO is actually the guilty party in this case.

What a punk! He was just trying to make himself look like the bigshot, possibly get something on the CA, and possibly his seat. It's not just the senior guys who eat their young. The young try to sabotage a senior guy every time they get a chance.

Anyone who says he/she hasn't dozed in their seat is either a liar or doesn't fly for a living.

 

[BigFlyr]

We all know for that many airlines allow and in some cases encourage one of the flight crew to "rest their eyes" during cruise flight while the other maintains vigilance so that the rested crewmember is "fresh" for the arrival.

That being said, does anyone know if there are any FAA guidelines or regulations regarding this pratice? I'm too lazy to do the research myself!

 

[Bluto]

Don't stress about it Biggee, you just take a nap and we'll find the answers for ya.

 

[Jeepman]

Yesterday I was at FL 350 cruising along for another 1-1/2 hrs. It was my leg and when ATC gave us a radio change I noticed the Capt. had dozed a little. Did I wake him up and say, "Hey!" No, I did the radios while he rested. IMO it is better to let the other guy or gal rest a little at cruise, where sometimes it is easier to rest than at the hotel with the kiddo's running up and down the hallway at 11 pm on a reduced rest.

Even I got better sleep sitting in the back of an MD80 (w/earplugs) for 2 hrs than I did for the last three nights in a hotel. THE PUBLIC AND THE FEDS DON"T UNDERSTAND. I think that if the FO in this case saw the pilot was sleeping and knew that passengers where watching HE should be the one in trouble, because he saw the situation and did nothing about it.

Besides, aren't video camera's illegal to operate during a flight because they interfere with the navigational equipment on an A/C?

 

[poydras]

I agree 100% with you jeepman

I got quite few snoozer CA. on board. Never woke them up.
I like to fly single pilot.
just kidding.

 

[CatYaaak]

yeah, if it were only that easy. not too sure who you work for (if a regional at all), but just because they made you a crappy schedule and the van ride took two hours longer than it should have and you only got 3-4 hours of sleep isn't their concern. Then when you call in fatigued, you get the call from the chief pilot and an "occurance" that will evetually lose your your job. Ask any regional pilot. intimidation forces many pilots to do stupid things. it isn't right, but to dismiss it as a simple decision is not fair.

...and so what does this have to do with the "American public" and why do they need to be force-fed some kind of awareness of this? Schedules are a matter to be decided between management and your union. If you truly are fatigued due to scheduling and need to sleep in the cockpit (and btw, those catnap studies/rules are for extended flights just short of requiring heavy crews), then I'd say your union leadership blows and isn't listening to you on this safety-related issue. If you lose your job because of it, well then your union is worthless to the extreme and I can't believe you'd pay $1 in dues to those pansies, whoever they are. If your CP calls you on it then he's just a managementass-kissing weasel.

As far as schedules are concerned, during my time flying for the airlines most pilots were usually pushing for lines to be built that had more flying hours, with maximum flying hours per duty day so therefore more days off per month. If scheduling accomadates this, then that means you work your butt off during your days on. You can't have it all ways......minimum turn times and maximum hours with maximum days off "but by the way I never want to get tired when I work". If it's such a big safety issue, why not instead push for workable schedules that don't run you ragged even though it might take a day or two off from a monthly line?

And face it, some fatigue encountered is due to someone's being unwilling to adjust their time-off schedule to what they know their upcoming duty schedule will be. I've spent more than one night sitting next a nodding-off FO who got up at 0800 (because that's what they do at home) to hit the gym at the hotel when the duty day began mid-afternoon. Additionally, such a person usually considers coffee to be some kind of poison. I never harrassed anyone for something self-induced like that, but I do consider it poor pre-planning.

It's interesting to see everyone leap to this Captain's defense for a chance to co-opt the "fatigue issue" as it relates to their own situation, when for all they know the guy might have spent the entire previous night chatting online or reading golf magazines. After all, the FO seemed to be awake, didn't he?

But please don't get me wrong. If I could, I'd prefer to fly from a fully-reclined position, gently rocking in a cockpit hammock, with all the controls within easy reach so I'd barely have to move a muscle. Upon arrival into the chocks a "do not disturb" sign would be hung on the cockpit door so all turns could be spent aslumber, just like we had to roll out our mats in 1st grade for mandated naptime. All paperwork would be the responsiblilty of someone else, and we would be awakened sometime after beginning push-back, just prior to engine start.

Oh, and there'd be a coffeepot right there in the cockpit.

 

[stillaboo]

No one has said a word about the punk FO who called attention to the CA. He was motioning to the passengers to look at the sleeping CA, and laughing his a** off.

Nobody else I know has seen this information either. Where did you find out that the FO was "motioning to the passengers to look at the sleeping CA, and laughing his a** off."

Please post it.

Thanks,
-Boo!

 

[sidseal]

Can you log PIC time while the Capt. is snoozing? Seriously, though, I do continuous duty lines and sometimes a 10-15 min break makes all the difference in the world.

 

[GCD]

Boo,

Maybe because I am in MIA that I got that side of the story. Not that the news media would add to the story a bit.

 

[tittyjet]

GCD:

"The young guy try to sabotage the senior guy evey chance they get."

You need to get a farcking clue, you jackass. Sounds like you had a bad experience and are now making broad generalizations, or, di you get caught doing somehing wrong by a junior guy who wasn't intimidated by your ego??

Edited part:
When I went back and read your (alleged) background, I nearly fell off the sofa.

You were a CP and DO with that kind of farcked-up view -- may God bless the poor pilots who flew for that outfit. I guess you were the guy who always sided with those who were senior, no matter what common sense and rational thinking would dictate.


Out.

 

[hmmm]

Following proper CRM the FO should of woken the Capt. up.

The FO should be fired for not protecting the companies certificate in front of the eyes of the public.

If the FO had a problem and needed help he would not have had the Capt ready to help and in the loop. He did not show proper judgement by not waking him up.

Fire the FO. He was more in the wrong then the Capt.

 

[acaTerry]

DHC8FO,

Thanks for beating me to the punch. I was all set to fire until I saw you replied first. It looks like ACA isn't the only place with such a policy. Fly safe,
Terry

 

[metrodriver]

tittyjet, if you know GCD I think you'll have a little bit different opinion of him.
And just read the last sentence again.

If you decide to scan the overhead panel for a while, just make sure nobody notices and let your other crewmember know. From experience I know that 20 mins can make a HUGE difference.
I suppose this fo knew all about it and should have warned the capt that it was too obvious to the pax. Very important part of CRM (crew rest management)

 

[FlyBigE]

ZZZZZ

If you have Pax onboard then you probably should just pull the curtain or shut the door. Then they will be none the wiser and you won't look like an idiot on National TV.

Metrodriver great definition of CRM.

 

[AJWick]

hey boo,

what happened to your avatar?

dont tell me that you were asked to remove it!

aj

 

[GCD]

Tittyjet,

Obviously, you don't know me or you wouldn't be calling me names, and assuming what my management style is. In fact, I have a pretty loyal following. However, that's not the point.

The point is, I have had several whiny pilots come into my office and complain about other pilots. Captains complaining about first officers, first officers complaining about captains. I've heard it all, but it always amazed me how pilots love to stab each-other in the back and then twist the knife. You see it on this forum.

My whole point to my post was that the FO, in this case, was twisting the knife big time in the CA's back, but everyone was blaming the CA. I believe in an airplane being operated by the whole crew, except for short CRM (Crew Rest Management) breaks. However, I wouldn't expect one of my crewmembers to hang me, or anyone else, out to dry.

Thank you for your input, though. Maybe I can learn from your input on how to better express my thoughts without causing you to call me names.

 

[acaTerry]

CatYaak,
Things must have changed since you flew with the airlines. Everyone still wants the lines to have more hours. But the turns are ridiculous. Try this as an example: IAD-PIT with a 1:05 turn in PIT. Then sit in IAD for 2:40, then a RDU turn with a :50 min turn in RDU and then sit in IAD for almost three hours again and go out for the overnight.
Lines keep getting more and more time wasted. Best line I ever had? Back in 2000 I was a J32 FO with 91 hours flight time, 16 days off. Awesome. But something just went downhill from there. Over at Mesa, I know an ERJ CA who went from 15 off to reserve with 8 off. It
It's a little different these days....