Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Pilot Concessions
- Thread starter Okaythen
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
no_land_3
Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2002
- Posts
- 15
Actually, we (Delta) have taken concessions. Just ask the thousands that were displaced and the 1310 that took a 100% paycut. Fortunately, my furlough lasted only 6 months...glad to be coming back Dec 1st.
For me (and many DL pilots) to consider any further concessions, management has to rescind their $65 million secular trust, not take any bonuses until we are profitable, and when we do become profitable again we must be paid back for our investment. Any concessions will not be a grant, but a loan to be repayed. Also, our current contract must be extended.
I will not fund additional RJ purchases (to be flown by non DL pilots) or management bonuses. I will not support anything that keeps my 1060 brothers on the street longer...eg. raising the cap to 80 hours.
Hope that answers your question re: Delta.
For me (and many DL pilots) to consider any further concessions, management has to rescind their $65 million secular trust, not take any bonuses until we are profitable, and when we do become profitable again we must be paid back for our investment. Any concessions will not be a grant, but a loan to be repayed. Also, our current contract must be extended.
I will not fund additional RJ purchases (to be flown by non DL pilots) or management bonuses. I will not support anything that keeps my 1060 brothers on the street longer...eg. raising the cap to 80 hours.
Hope that answers your question re: Delta.
Actually AirTran did give concessions. They were short lived, about 3 months at roughly 10% pay reduction, plus a lower guarantee. We also deferred deposits into our B-fund until the company posted a quarterly profit: about 2 quarters later the money was deposited.
In return, we got no furloughs, and the ability to quickly jump into markets that presented themselves as opportunities, ie BWI.
In return, we got no furloughs, and the ability to quickly jump into markets that presented themselves as opportunities, ie BWI.
enigma
good ol boy
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,279
Spirit pilots agreed to a new contract this last February that included a pay raise and work rule concesssions. Opinions vary on whether or not it was an effective gain or loss. For me, since I am not senior enough to take advantage of the ability to bid conflicts, etc; I received a 20% pay raise. For the senior pilots, I think that the net raise was closer to 5%. (my numbers, not the official ALPA line).
However, we did not give across the board concessions. For that I applaud my fellow pilots and our union leaders. I think that we could have done better, but at least we didn't give back 23%!!!!!!!!
regards,
enigma
However, we did not give across the board concessions. For that I applaud my fellow pilots and our union leaders. I think that we could have done better, but at least we didn't give back 23%!!!!!!!!
regards,
enigma
"At AA some of us took up to 47% hourly cuts...I am flying 99 hour real time months/ 17 work days and selling my vacation back. "
Man I'm glad I'm not furloughed from your airline. I'm sure you are flying that high of a cap to offset the paycut but it's got to hurt your guys/gals on the street.
Man I'm glad I'm not furloughed from your airline. I'm sure you are flying that high of a cap to offset the paycut but it's got to hurt your guys/gals on the street.
I think you've broken the code of the quality of union solidarity at APA. The old guys think they saved their pensions. My bet is Arpey comes after those in the winter. There are still Captains who complain about their pay cuts (that they voted for) in front of guys who are getting furloughed. Also, ask the APA how many of their members even bother to contribute to the fuloughed pilot's loan fund.
Do the AA pilots pay the COBRA premiums for their furloughed brothers and sisters? Besides DAL and I believe NWA, which other pilot groups pay assessments to cover COBRA premiums for their furloughed pilots? DAL pilots have enforced a 75 hour cap in order to minimize furloughs, what are others doing?
Tim47SIP
Serving for the USofA
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 1,157
Dalpa cant do that!
Actually AirTran did give concessions. They were short lived, about 3 months at roughly 10% pay reduction, plus a lower guarantee. We also deferred deposits into our B-fund until the company posted a quarterly profit: about 2 quarters later the money was deposited.
DALPA is to busy protecting the profession!
In return, we got no furloughs, and the ability to quickly jump into markets that presented themselves as opportunities, ie BWI.
Like I said, they are to busy protecting the profession, let alone their own company! I am so proud of them for "sucking it up" and accepting that pay while their furloughed guys remain on the street.
It's so that thier furloughed guys can come back to a high paying job, dont you know!
DAL pilots have enforced a 75 hour cap in order to minimize furloughs, what are others doing?
Explain that "greenslip" thing to me again? They are flying the extra trips because of?? I just recently talked to an individual (Delta CPT) who stated that he made close to $8000 (extra) last month. What were we talking about? Oh ya! the Profession, that was it.
Actually AirTran did give concessions. They were short lived, about 3 months at roughly 10% pay reduction, plus a lower guarantee. We also deferred deposits into our B-fund until the company posted a quarterly profit: about 2 quarters later the money was deposited.
DALPA is to busy protecting the profession!
In return, we got no furloughs, and the ability to quickly jump into markets that presented themselves as opportunities, ie BWI.
Like I said, they are to busy protecting the profession, let alone their own company! I am so proud of them for "sucking it up" and accepting that pay while their furloughed guys remain on the street.
It's so that thier furloughed guys can come back to a high paying job, dont you know!
DAL pilots have enforced a 75 hour cap in order to minimize furloughs, what are others doing?
Explain that "greenslip" thing to me again? They are flying the extra trips because of?? I just recently talked to an individual (Delta CPT) who stated that he made close to $8000 (extra) last month. What were we talking about? Oh ya! the Profession, that was it.
BIGBROWNDC8
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 247
UPS
We havent taken any concessions at UPS. In fact, we are in the middle of negotiations as we speak. Our contract is amendable on DEC 31 of this year. UPS and the the pilot's Union (IPA) are negotiating under a new process by which the entire negotiations process is being mediated by a GOV mediator from start to finish issue by issue. So far, so good. I can tell you that we pilots are not anticipating a pay cut. Not with the company pocketing 3.2 billion in profits last year and record profits so far this year.
We havent taken any concessions at UPS. In fact, we are in the middle of negotiations as we speak. Our contract is amendable on DEC 31 of this year. UPS and the the pilot's Union (IPA) are negotiating under a new process by which the entire negotiations process is being mediated by a GOV mediator from start to finish issue by issue. So far, so good. I can tell you that we pilots are not anticipating a pay cut. Not with the company pocketing 3.2 billion in profits last year and record profits so far this year.
Re: Dalpa cant do that!
So you would advice concessions in order to bring the furloughed pilots back? YGTBSM. I can just see it, anytime a company wants concessions they just start furloughing pilots. Will the CMR pilots agree to concessions in order to prevent furloughs? Don't you find it odd that no DAL furloughed pilot feel sold out by their MEC. Do the profession a favor, stay out of union work.
FYI, greenslips are factored into the manning formula. The more greenslips, the more pilots the company is contractually required to keep employed. No airline operates without the ability to meet manning shortages with overtime, either through greenslips (voluntary) or inverse assignments (non voluntary). In DAL's case, volunary overtime increases the contractual manning formula and the 75 hour cap triggers more greenslips as the company begins to add more mainline capacity. But than again you probably knew that already.
Tim47SIP said:
So you would advice concessions in order to bring the furloughed pilots back? YGTBSM. I can just see it, anytime a company wants concessions they just start furloughing pilots. Will the CMR pilots agree to concessions in order to prevent furloughs? Don't you find it odd that no DAL furloughed pilot feel sold out by their MEC. Do the profession a favor, stay out of union work.
FYI, greenslips are factored into the manning formula. The more greenslips, the more pilots the company is contractually required to keep employed. No airline operates without the ability to meet manning shortages with overtime, either through greenslips (voluntary) or inverse assignments (non voluntary). In DAL's case, volunary overtime increases the contractual manning formula and the 75 hour cap triggers more greenslips as the company begins to add more mainline capacity. But than again you probably knew that already.
Okaythen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
- Posts
- 62
Thanks for the replies. It's pretty much what I expected. Has Continental taken concessions? I don't think so, but would appreciate someone confirming that for me.
BTW, the reason I brought up this topic is because I had a non-pilot friend who got the impression from a Reuters article that Delta Pilots were "the only ones who hadn't taken pay cuts since 9/11."
I was fairly certain that wasn't the case, and a little irritated how the article seemed to make Delta pilots look like they were the only ones in the industry who weren't helping out.
BTW, the reason I brought up this topic is because I had a non-pilot friend who got the impression from a Reuters article that Delta Pilots were "the only ones who hadn't taken pay cuts since 9/11."
I was fairly certain that wasn't the case, and a little irritated how the article seemed to make Delta pilots look like they were the only ones in the industry who weren't helping out.
NYRANGERS
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2002
- Posts
- 592
hostage said:
I hope we hang on to most of our contract. I can see us giving back around 20% with a contract extension. Leo predicts we will be profitable in '05, with the cost cuts already in place.........
Delta CEO sees return to profits in '05
Delta Air Lines Inc. CEO Leo Mullin told Bloomberg News that the airline is targeting 2005 for a return to profitability.
Mullin said a significant amount of progress is expected to be achieved in 2004. And while a lot of cost restructuring lies ahead, the airline expects that cost changes already made and improvements in the economy will result in a 2005 profit.
Delta has been struggling to rein in expenses and boost travel demand since 2001, when the airline industry was sent spiraling by the terrorist attacks.
The airline also is working to renegotiate contracts with pilots. Mullin told Bloomberg that Delta's excess pilot compensation relative to American Airlines is about $1 billion a year.
Delta is predicting a third-quarter 2003 loss of $275 million.
The Atlanta-based airline operates its second-largest hub from the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.
Senior APA guys pay COBRA premiums!!?? You've got to be kidding!! A majority of these senior APA guys won't even spring for a lousy $15 a month for the furloughed pilot's LOAN fund . . . . . . or maybe after flying 99 hour months you're so tired that you forget . . . . month after month.
The APA wasn't duped. There was plenty of discussion about that before the vote. 69% of the APA were scared and stampeded into it by Carty and its union leadership.
At least Carty walked away crying crock tears all the way to the bank. It's really tough retiring to that estate up in the Canadian Rockies.
The APA wasn't duped. There was plenty of discussion about that before the vote. 69% of the APA were scared and stampeded into it by Carty and its union leadership.
At least Carty walked away crying crock tears all the way to the bank. It's really tough retiring to that estate up in the Canadian Rockies.
Tim47SIP
Serving for the USofA
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 1,157
FDJ2
So you would advice concessions in order to bring the furloughed pilots back? YGTBSM. I can just see it, anytime a company wants concessions they just start furloughing pilots. Will the CMR pilots agree to concessions in order to prevent furloughs? Don't you find it odd that no DAL furloughed pilot feel sold out by their MEC. Do the profession a favor, stay out of union work.
Well, Airtrans did it, didn't they? I am not talking 30% here. Maybe just 10% would have substantialy helped these guys out.
I have two very close Delta furloughed friends who don't know each other, and both feel very different from what is posted by the few furlough's on this board. They both feel left like they were left out in the cold at the expense of the senior guys. Their rational came after talking with your MEC reps (at the Peachtree meeting) and finding out what DALPA was really doing to get the furloughed guys back to work. Just grievances. Maybe they are doing more now with the new negotiations to help the furloughs return.
My point here is to not pick fights or name call. I understand what you are attempting to do and am not against what you guys are doing. It is just that I think DALPA should have taken the leadership role here and offered a 10% pay cut to keep food on the furloughees table. It could have easily been negotiated with snap back provisions so that your current rates would not be compromised; as Airtrans did. DALPA would have swayed public opinion here with this good will gesture and management would have a harder time trying to get more cuts.
Several months ago, ASA and Comair pilots were unequivocally seperate companies and in no way associated with any Delta mainline issues. Operational integration was and is absolutely a "non issue". We at ASA and Comair knew exactly where DALPA thought we should be in the pecking order within the Delta family. Bottom feeders. Redheaded step children that are to stay quiet, sit in our corners, and be lucky we are flying at all. But now, we are considered "Delta system pilots" so that we can share in the concessions. I understand that we should all share, and at different appropriate percetage levels (as the General puts it), but DALPA's past actions are not great examples of that solidarity you are asking for. It looks more like an "all for one and one for one" approach. I am in no way a supporter of, nor do I agree with the RJDC, so don't bring that mess up.
But than again you probably knew that already.
As for the green slip issue, No I did not know, that is why I asked. I really can't understand how flying extra trips over the 75 hour cap means more pilots on the line, so I will just have to take your word for it. Thanks.
So you would advice concessions in order to bring the furloughed pilots back? YGTBSM. I can just see it, anytime a company wants concessions they just start furloughing pilots. Will the CMR pilots agree to concessions in order to prevent furloughs? Don't you find it odd that no DAL furloughed pilot feel sold out by their MEC. Do the profession a favor, stay out of union work.
Well, Airtrans did it, didn't they? I am not talking 30% here. Maybe just 10% would have substantialy helped these guys out.
I have two very close Delta furloughed friends who don't know each other, and both feel very different from what is posted by the few furlough's on this board. They both feel left like they were left out in the cold at the expense of the senior guys. Their rational came after talking with your MEC reps (at the Peachtree meeting) and finding out what DALPA was really doing to get the furloughed guys back to work. Just grievances. Maybe they are doing more now with the new negotiations to help the furloughs return.
My point here is to not pick fights or name call. I understand what you are attempting to do and am not against what you guys are doing. It is just that I think DALPA should have taken the leadership role here and offered a 10% pay cut to keep food on the furloughees table. It could have easily been negotiated with snap back provisions so that your current rates would not be compromised; as Airtrans did. DALPA would have swayed public opinion here with this good will gesture and management would have a harder time trying to get more cuts.
Several months ago, ASA and Comair pilots were unequivocally seperate companies and in no way associated with any Delta mainline issues. Operational integration was and is absolutely a "non issue". We at ASA and Comair knew exactly where DALPA thought we should be in the pecking order within the Delta family. Bottom feeders. Redheaded step children that are to stay quiet, sit in our corners, and be lucky we are flying at all. But now, we are considered "Delta system pilots" so that we can share in the concessions. I understand that we should all share, and at different appropriate percetage levels (as the General puts it), but DALPA's past actions are not great examples of that solidarity you are asking for. It looks more like an "all for one and one for one" approach. I am in no way a supporter of, nor do I agree with the RJDC, so don't bring that mess up.
But than again you probably knew that already.
As for the green slip issue, No I did not know, that is why I asked. I really can't understand how flying extra trips over the 75 hour cap means more pilots on the line, so I will just have to take your word for it. Thanks.
WrightAvia
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2002
- Posts
- 1,223
calfo
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 204
Continental pilots haven't given anything back... Gordon Bethune is lauding the fact that our employee groups are still getting paid the same as before. Who'd've thought the bottom would come up to meet us? We were always the ones on the bottom of the pay scale.
That said, we have 400 or so mainline guys on furlough... three years ago here in CLE, we had 320 FO's - it's down to 120 for November 2003.
The article that said that Delta pilots were the only ones not taking cuts was probably the "Atlanta Constitution" and in Leo Mullin's back pocket.
That said, we have 400 or so mainline guys on furlough... three years ago here in CLE, we had 320 FO's - it's down to 120 for November 2003.
The article that said that Delta pilots were the only ones not taking cuts was probably the "Atlanta Constitution" and in Leo Mullin's back pocket.
Although not quite a major yet, projection is for next year-- JetBlue pilots went to 70 hour minimum schedules post 9-11 and then back to normal hours a month later. Additionally, the airline held back a promised raise but reinstated the 32% pay hike in Nov 2001, AND paid it retroactively. All these decisions were made by management with little or no pilot input... The key here is the flexibility of a non-union group of workers and the management philosophy of taking care of their employees-- to date, about 500 pilots have been added to the seniority list since 9-11.
BIGBROWNDC8
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 247
Juat a thought about unions...
Im not trying to stir the pot, but I take it by your comments that you are promoting a non union pilot work force as the reason that JB and the gang are so successful. Am I on the right track???
Well, I think its surely short sidedness on your part to think that all the answers of an airlines success and company/pilot relations can be fixed by using the JB model (non union). You guys have been around for how long, 1-3 years (not sure how long). Yes, things are going great up to now, Most the company is happy that things are turning in their favor, and as far as the pilots, well, I cant speak directly for them since I don’t work there but Im sure most of you are just happy to have a job flying (like me).
Its been proven through the years that the advances in aviation and the successes of most pilot groups have been through collective bargaining by a united work force through their Union reps, were it not for that, we'd all still be in the ice ages, and Im not just talking about pay and bennies, there’s also safety, work, scope, rest issues to name just a few.
Don’t get me wrong, Im not a fanatic Union flag waver, I was Military for a large part of my career, and Unions did not sit very well with me, but I do know that Im card holder now and I understand they are necessary in this business.
Your philosophy of letting management determine your future based on the betterment of the company sounds great, everyone is happy.. FOR NOW... Try allowing a company like UPS, AA, FedEx, DAL, UAL, SWA, we'll any of the carriers that have been around long enough to have a past, determine your future and every pilot would be a reserve line holder with an unlimited call out period, working 22 days a month, flying all night long (or day) for 60 bucks an hour (as a Capt) with no retirement...
You guys act like you've re-invented the wheel, your closest model of success is SWA and even they have union reps on the property. Use the tools you have to move forward. A wheel is a wheel, any way you roll it. The day will come when your pilot group will want more and your company will want to give you less, your position will change, and you'll all be looking for a union to rep you...
For now, enjoy the honeymoon
Fraternally
100% united
Im not trying to stir the pot, but I take it by your comments that you are promoting a non union pilot work force as the reason that JB and the gang are so successful. Am I on the right track???
Well, I think its surely short sidedness on your part to think that all the answers of an airlines success and company/pilot relations can be fixed by using the JB model (non union). You guys have been around for how long, 1-3 years (not sure how long). Yes, things are going great up to now, Most the company is happy that things are turning in their favor, and as far as the pilots, well, I cant speak directly for them since I don’t work there but Im sure most of you are just happy to have a job flying (like me).
Its been proven through the years that the advances in aviation and the successes of most pilot groups have been through collective bargaining by a united work force through their Union reps, were it not for that, we'd all still be in the ice ages, and Im not just talking about pay and bennies, there’s also safety, work, scope, rest issues to name just a few.
Don’t get me wrong, Im not a fanatic Union flag waver, I was Military for a large part of my career, and Unions did not sit very well with me, but I do know that Im card holder now and I understand they are necessary in this business.
Your philosophy of letting management determine your future based on the betterment of the company sounds great, everyone is happy.. FOR NOW... Try allowing a company like UPS, AA, FedEx, DAL, UAL, SWA, we'll any of the carriers that have been around long enough to have a past, determine your future and every pilot would be a reserve line holder with an unlimited call out period, working 22 days a month, flying all night long (or day) for 60 bucks an hour (as a Capt) with no retirement...
You guys act like you've re-invented the wheel, your closest model of success is SWA and even they have union reps on the property. Use the tools you have to move forward. A wheel is a wheel, any way you roll it. The day will come when your pilot group will want more and your company will want to give you less, your position will change, and you'll all be looking for a union to rep you...
For now, enjoy the honeymoon
Fraternally
100% united
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
