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Piedmont to recieve a true flow

xjhawk

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Let me see if I understand what you and the other haters are talking about:

1. You have a commuter airline that flies antiquated equipment
2. There are no firm plans to put another fleet type on that certificate
3. There is about a 5 year life cycle on the current aircraft

Their MEC comes along and:

1. Maintains their quality of life and benefits for another contract
2. Gets seniority based flow to American for ALL pilots on the property to insure that nobody loses their job in the case that the airline does not receive any new aircraft.

Somebody in the industry has a problem with this???????

Can we at Endeavor Borrow your MEC?
 

ttuite

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I agree...... I hope our MEC did hold the line in terms of Envoy. Only problem with us is that we have ZERO leverage. PSA had Leverage, Envoy has Leverage.... Parker doesn't want Piedmont to have 175's. We don't have the facilities that Envoy has. We don't have the resources period. It will cost them more money to shut Envoy down then it would us. An airline that has 38 Turbo Props that are over 20 years old has Zero leverage. Our planes are history over the next 5 years. I see a bigger plan coming to play. I see us slowly going away after each plane times out or maybe a merger with Envoy.

Either way we've been screwed hard in the past by the whipsaws and this secure jobs for everyone on the Piedmont property.

Surf,
Stop defending yourself. I have no dog in this but I have to tell you given your circumstances you should be taking the MEC boys out to dinner. They made lemonade out of the lemons. He happy and stop defending yourself. Anyone who doesn't get this hasn't been around for long enough to see how the airline industry really works.
 

WSurf

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Surf,
Stop defending yourself. I have no dog in this but I have to tell you given your circumstances you should be taking the MEC boys out to dinner. They made lemonade out of the lemons. He happy and stop defending yourself. Anyone who doesn't get this hasn't been around for long enough to see how the airline industry really works.

I agree....
 

cheapgreek

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When I came to PDT in 2002, we had over 60 frames and that was before the merger with Allegheny. I heard many times over the years that PDT was actively looking for more Dash's but none ever came on line. 8 Dash-8-200's left along with 1 300, tail 342. Two more 100's gone this year, I think 911,912.
The timed out frames are being scavenged for parts and how long before one of the maintenance bases is closed, ROA,MDT,or SBY?
I know HHH,which is a good profitable station cannot be serviced with anything other than a Dash-8, and I don't know what other airports are in the same situation.
Some really nice people at PDT and it will be sad to see them without a job in the coming years.
 

WSurf

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When I came to PDT in 2002, we had over 60 frames and that was before the merger with Allegheny. I heard many times over the years that PDT was actively looking for more Dash's but none ever came on line. 8 Dash-8-200's left along with 1 300, tail 342. Two more 100's gone this year, I think 911,912.
The timed out frames are being scavenged for parts and how long before one of the maintenance bases is closed, ROA,MDT,or SBY?
I know HHH,which is a good profitable station cannot be serviced with anything other than a Dash-8, and I don't know what other airports are in the same situation.
Some really nice people at PDT and it will be sad to see them without a job in the coming years.

This new agreement secures jobs for pilots. As for PDT ground handling I don't see much changing.
 

hockeypilot44

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Taking concessions in any area of a contract for a flow or preferential interview is disgusting. It's pathetic that regional pilots feel like they have to negotiate for their jobs instead of earn them like everyone else. Negotiating for a job at another company devalues our profession.
 

Kaman

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Taking concessions in any area of a contract for a flow or preferential interview is disgusting. It's pathetic that regional pilots feel like they have to negotiate for their jobs instead of earn them like everyone else. Negotiating for a job at another company devalues our profession.

I don't think your analysis fits with the situation here at Piedmont. These good folks here work very hard with old equipment, and have "held the line" for a number of years now. A compromise in order to secure the future of the Piedmont pilot group isn't as disgusting as the deal that was brokered at Pinnacle. We were coerced, lied to and then further screwed over by the Delta MEC that offered zero lifelines to our pilot group. Instead, they negotiated a contract that would bring the 717s to Delta at the cost of other ALPA pilot group's jobs.
Your beef should be with ALPA national and not with Piedmont's MEC. ALPA structured this "union" into individual collective bargaining units that met the very specific needs of each pilot group. Sorry, that you don't like the rules anymore than I do, but until ALPA national decides to stop "buttering the bread" of their big league players that pay the most dues, nothing is going to change. Good for Piedmont if they are able to negotiate a contract amendment that secures jobs, gives a pathway to a better job and as a by-product attracts the best&brightest applicants to fly for them.
 

hockeypilot44

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I don't think your analysis fits with the situation here at Piedmont. These good folks here work very hard with old equipment, and have "held the line" for a number of years now. A compromise in order to secure the future of the Piedmont pilot group isn't as disgusting as the deal that was brokered at Pinnacle. We were coerced, lied to and then further screwed over by the Delta MEC that offered zero lifelines to our pilot group. Instead, they negotiated a contract that would bring the 717s to Delta at the cost of other ALPA pilot group's jobs.
Your beef should be with ALPA national and not with Piedmont's MEC. ALPA structured this "union" into individual collective bargaining units that met the very specific needs of each pilot group. Sorry, that you don't like the rules anymore than I do, but until ALPA national decides to stop "buttering the bread" of their big league players that pay the most dues, nothing is going to change. Good for Piedmont if they are able to negotiate a contract amendment that secures jobs, gives a pathway to a better job and as a by-product attracts the best&brightest applicants to fly for them.

These companies are using these flows to attract pilots instead of using compensation. It is disgusting. I stand by my statement. I don't like it at Endeavor, PSA, or any other airline. It artificially holds down our pay and our worth.
 

J.Otto

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These companies are using these flows to attract pilots instead of using compensation. It is disgusting. I stand by my statement. I don't like it at Endeavor, PSA, or any other airline. It artificially holds down our pay and our worth.

This is the real chicken dinner winner.... served via carrot and stick. Flow... what a mesmerizing term to entice would-be applicants. A pilot job has in essence, become a classic pyramid scheme.
 

WSurf

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This is the real chicken dinner winner.... served via carrot and stick. Flow... what a mesmerizing term to entice would-be applicants. A pilot job has in essence, become a classic pyramid scheme.

Flow is being used the same way the RJ's were dangled over the pilots heads. Remember those days?? You had Pilot Groups ready to stab each other in the back to get 50 seat RJ's on there properties. And for what?? To live another day? Again I'd put the Blame on ALPA.
Piedmont's is a dying airline with nothing to fall back on. Piedmonts Flow is nothing like Endeavors or PSA's. It's a straight date of hire flow. No interview, no strings.... You just show up for class. I can tell you this if they had offered us 175's with competitive rates versus this flow thru many would have said screw those RJ's we want to go to mainline. Especially with all the retirements happening at American. We've got guys now that after there 1st year for US Airways are holding Captain on the 190's and FO on the 330 out of PHL.
Everyone on the Piedmont Property under the age of 40 has just hit the Airline Career Lotto! No more interviews. Hang out in the Dash 8 another 2 years maybe and gone to the worlds largest Airline. Who wouldn't want that just starting out there career at a Regional Airline?

The main reason for this was because nobody wanted to come her to fly a Dash 8. We didn't lose any pay. Airline keeps going like it is. No concessions but it helps man the airline. I believe attrition at Piedmont has now come to a halt. And not we shouldn't have as hard time finding people as we have.
 
Last edited:

Kaman

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Well said, Wsurf...I understand the emotional argument about pay, benefits, etc...in the industry and I believe that both industry and the unon(s) have created this scenario. Consolidation will continue as a function of profit vs. cost. It must, and in the meantime the airlines have to manage their revenue very carefully while re-capitalizing their fleets, infrastructure, etc...
After fuel, manpower is the most costly part of running an airline and the airlines WILL not do anything to upset the apple cart now that the two-tiered system has been established. When the scope clause was introduced along with CRJ/ERJ revolution the horse has been out of the barn, never to return. In the meantime, we have had a costly war and recession with an anemic recovery. I would say, if I was running the business I would be doing exactly what they are doing now. As just a line pilot, I don't like this business model, but to survive in this job market you have to be agile and able to adapt as best you can. Pilots are an interesting lot for sure, and why management doesn't "like" us...We are necessary COST of business that they cannot deal with like they can in acquiring a cheaper parts vendor.
I agree to disagree with an earlier posting about pilots accepting flow in lieu of better compensation at the LOWER/SECOND tier. 12/4 payscales, ab initio programs, Multi-pilot crew licenses, "frozen ATPs", etc...Are going to be the way forward at the wholly-owned subsidiaries is the future. Along with more consolidation at the mainline; larger airplanes with less frequency to generate high load factors, and using the 175/900 to fill in the gaps and on thinner, long-range routes. Expect to see communities loose airline service, and more operators flying smaller aircraft in an at-risk model with interline agreements ( For those of you old enough to remember those! ).
Anyway, I hope that everyone finds their "dream job" and in the meantime keeps their chin up!
 

Nevets

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I don't think your analysis fits with the situation here at Piedmont. These good folks here work very hard with old equipment, and have "held the line" for a number of years now. A compromise in order to secure the future of the Piedmont pilot group isn't as disgusting as the deal that was brokered at Pinnacle. We were coerced, lied to and then further screwed over by the Delta MEC that offered zero lifelines to our pilot group. Instead, they negotiated a contract that would bring the 717s to Delta at the cost of other ALPA pilot group's jobs.

Your beef should be with ALPA national and not with Piedmont's MEC. ALPA structured this "union" into individual collective bargaining units that met the very specific needs of each pilot group. Sorry, that you don't like the rules anymore than I do, but until ALPA national decides to stop "buttering the bread" of their big league players that pay the most dues, nothing is going to change. Good for Piedmont if they are able to negotiate a contract amendment that secures jobs, gives a pathway to a better job and as a by-product attracts the best&brightest applicants to fly for them.


As a regional pilot, I welcome all mainline pilots taking back all the flying they negotiated away. It was theirs to begin with to negotiate away and it's still theirs to try to negotiate back.

That's not the same though as one regional negotiating less costly contract terms that another voted down in order to secure aircraft that were originally slated to the pilot group who wouldn't agree to concessions in order to secure more flying.


Flow is being used the same way the RJ's were dangled over the pilots heads. Remember those days?? You had Pilot Groups ready to stab each other in the back to get 50 seat RJ's on there properties. And for what?? To live another day? Again I'd put the Blame on ALPA.
Piedmont's is a dying airline with nothing to fall back on. Piedmonts Flow is nothing like Endeavors or PSA's. It's a straight date of hire flow. No interview, no strings.... You just show up for class. I can tell you this if they had offered us 175's with competitive rates versus this flow thru many would have said screw those RJ's we want to go to mainline. Especially with all the retirements happening at American. We've got guys now that after there 1st year for US Airways are holding Captain on the 190's and FO on the 330 out of PHL.
Everyone on the Piedmont Property under the age of 40 has just hit the Airline Career Lotto! No more interviews. Hang out in the Dash 8 another 2 years maybe and gone to the worlds largest Airline. Who wouldn't want that just starting out there career at a Regional Airline?

The main reason for this was because nobody wanted to come her to fly a Dash 8. We didn't lose any pay. Airline keeps going like it is. No concessions but it helps man the airline. I believe attrition at Piedmont has now come to a halt. And not we shouldn't have as hard time finding people as we have.


I work at a dying airline, it was even threatened to be if we voted no to concessions, and we still voted no. That is not an excuse to agree to terms that are less than those who voted down those terms, in order to get new jets and a flow through. I know most will only think of themselves because they have no perceived viable alternative.

Just my worthless opinion.




Well said, Wsurf...I understand the emotional argument about pay, benefits, etc...in the industry and I believe that both industry and the unon(s) have created this scenario. Consolidation will continue as a function of profit vs. cost. It must, and in the meantime the airlines have to manage their revenue very carefully while re-capitalizing their fleets, infrastructure, etc...

After fuel, manpower is the most costly part of running an airline and the airlines WILL not do anything to upset the apple cart now that the two-tiered system has been established. When the scope clause was introduced along with CRJ/ERJ revolution the horse has been out of the barn, never to return. In the meantime, we have had a costly war and recession with an anemic recovery. I would say, if I was running the business I would be doing exactly what they are doing now. As just a line pilot, I don't like this business model, but to survive in this job market you have to be agile and able to adapt as best you can. Pilots are an interesting lot for sure, and why management doesn't "like" us...We are necessary COST of business that they cannot deal with like they can in acquiring a cheaper parts vendor.

I agree to disagree with an earlier posting about pilots accepting flow in lieu of better compensation at the LOWER/SECOND tier. 12/4 payscales, ab initio programs, Multi-pilot crew licenses, "frozen ATPs", etc...Are going to be the way forward at the wholly-owned subsidiaries is the future. Along with more consolidation at the mainline; larger airplanes with less frequency to generate high load factors, and using the 175/900 to fill in the gaps and on thinner, long-range routes. Expect to see communities loose airline service, and more operators flying smaller aircraft in an at-risk model with interline agreements ( For those of you old enough to remember those! ).

Anyway, I hope that everyone finds their "dream job" and in the meantime keeps their chin up!


At some point, I don't know where that is for regional pilots, people just won't work for the offered compensation. It's that simple. That's when you would truly see many communities lose their service. As long as we are willing to do it, of course it won't upset this apple cart. It's us who collectively has that power. And if it ever happens, management can't do anything other than to deal with it. But until pilots keep voting in concessions, they will keep offering them.
 
Last edited:

Kaman

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The biggest issue that I see, is that ALPA stubbornly resists evolving with the industry and how contracts are being negotiated. I suspect that this is more about union politics than it is in the best interests of the members. However, in the hostile labor climate that is going on at the regional level. I have to say that I am glad that I have pilots from my own pilot group looking out for our own interests. Solving the larger issues is WAY above my paygrade, and as complex as the dynamics of the airline industry. What is good today, likely won't be the case in a year from now.
 

WSurf

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As a regional pilot, I welcome all mainline pilots taking back all the flying they negotiated away. It was theirs to begin with to negotiate away and it's still theirs to try to negotiate back.

That's not the same though as one regional negotiating less costly contract terms that another voted down in order to secure aircraft that were originally slated to the pilot group who wouldn't agree to concessions in order to secure more flying.





I work at a dying airline, it was even threatened to be if we voted no to concessions, and we still voted no. That is not an excuse to agree to terms that are less than those who voted down those terms, in order to get new jets and a flow through. I know most will only think of themselves because they have no perceived viable alternative.

I hope you guys the best. Not sure what's going on at ExpressJet but I hope it not as bad as flying around 25 year old Turbo Props with a pilot group that is just over 300. Piedmont has held the line for many years and it has been a punishment in many ways in trying to keep the bar high.
We watched as Mesa, PSA, TSA, CHQ, and many more airlines kept getting RJ's and the bigger payrates.
I'm sure when we vote on this TA we will give consideration to many things.

Honestly I live in Base and make pretty damn good money for the plane I fly. While our schedules have sucked the last 2 months I enjoy great vacation and can takeover 2 months out of the year off. I would like to stay at PDT. I have enjoyed my stay here, but if we are closing up operations as the planes time out then it's nice to know I can continue to work. And to work within the US Airways/American System to stay close to home.
 

Nevets

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I hope you guys the best. Not sure what's going on at ExpressJet but I hope it not as bad as flying around 25 year old Turbo Props with a pilot group that is just over 300. Piedmont has held the line for many years and it has been a punishment in many ways in trying to keep the bar high.
We watched as Mesa, PSA, TSA, CHQ, and many more airlines kept getting RJ's and the bigger payrates.
I'm sure when we vote on this TA we will give consideration to many things.

Honestly I live in Base and make pretty damn good money for the plane I fly. While our schedules have sucked the last 2 months I enjoy great vacation and can takeover 2 months out of the year off. I would like to stay at PDT. I have enjoyed my stay here, but if we are closing up operations as the planes time out then it's nice to know I can continue to work. And to work within the US Airways/American System to stay close to home.


Like I said, it's a tough position to be in. I dont envy that. I honestly believe, and I know it's easier said than done, that the best thing all regional pilots could do is to have a viable plan b so that you can make decisions without fear. Good luck to you as well. I hope you set the next RJ contract bar!
 

Gr82Aviate

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Like I said, it's a tough position to be in. I dont envy that. I honestly believe, and I know it's easier said than done, that the best thing all regional pilots could do is to have a viable plan b so that you can make decisions without fear. Good luck to you as well. I hope you set the next RJ contract bar!










Don't hold your breath...
 

WSurf

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Is the PDT flow official or still being negotiated?

It's official.... done deal. However it still has to be voted on. But I'm thinking by the letter sent out this TA will probably be a slam dunk.
 

Sir Innocenti

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So if one is hired in the next few months, how long could he be at Piedmont before flowing? Do F.O's get to flow? Thanks and congrats!!!!!
 

WSurf

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So if one is hired in the next few months, how long could he be at Piedmont before flowing? Do F.O's get to flow? Thanks and congrats!!!!!

It's a straight date of hire flow. I'm thinking FO's will also get to flow. We already had a number of FO's get hired through the Preferential Interviewing Not sure of the numbers per month that will get to flow. Piedmont is a very senior airline so the top 20% have too much seniority and vacation to give up so I see them by passing. Plus they all have retirement and if there retirement grievence get done many will probably bail at age 60. Honestly everyone that was hired over the last year is set and people hired now might have the golden ticket for their airline career.
But still the details and language are being hammered out now. Remember we probably aren't getting EMB's so this might just be a kind way of shutting Piedmont down and making sure everyone stay employed by American.
 
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