PIC in a C-421

[flyboyzz1]

Service Ceiling on the C421-C is 30000ft. However you have a cabin alt of around 12500 at that altitude, plus the turbo controllers stop working around 25k. Most 421 operators stay below 25 unless they're picking up a big tailwind higher up to justify the much lower TAS.

But its bassed off of the service ceiling not the cabin altitude... that is if I read the reg right

 

[Corona]

This thread might take the FI record for most BS, incorrect answers.

The requirements are clearly spelled out in 61.31, (g)(1) through (3) (iv). In fact, the regs don't get much clearer than that.

You don't have to go to any damned altitude chamber.

C

 

[sky37d]

It is entirely my eroneous understanding and interpretation of the regs that if you operate a pressurized airplane that has a service ceiling that is above 25,000 ft, you must have a high altitude endorsement to operate said airplane. This has come up in our skymaster discussions, where it has been truthfully stated that the operator of a pressurized skymaster does not need a high altitude endorsement because the service ceiling is 20,000 ft.

Interestingly enough, there are non-pressurized aircraft that will go above 25,000ft, but since they are not pressurized, no high altitude endorsement is necessary.

 

[av8rbama]

Well what if that properly rated and endorsed pilot doesn't have a medical? That doesn't work correct?

You know what I mean... gotta have a medical to act as pic

 

[User546]

For you too lazy to open up your dusty FAR, 61.31(g) states:

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) High-altitude aerodynamics and meteorology;
(ii) Respiration;
(iii) Effects, symptoms, and causes of hypoxia and any other high-altitude sickness;
(iv) Duration of consciousness without supplemental oxygen;
(v) Effects of prolonged usage of supplemental oxygen;
(vi) Causes and effects of gas expansion and gas bubble formation;
(vii) Preventive measures for eliminating gas expansion, gas bubble formation, and high-altitude sickness;
(viii) Physical phenomena and incidents of decompression; and
(ix) Any other physiological aspects of high-altitude flight.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft unless that person has received and logged training from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft, and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a pressurized aircraft. The flight training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above 25,000 feet MSL;
(ii) Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft; and
(iii) Emergency descent procedures.

(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:
(i) Serving as pilot in command before April 15, 1991;
(ii) Completing a pilot proficiency check for a pilot certificate or rating before April 15, 1991;
(iii) Completing an official pilot-in-command check conducted by the military services of the United States; or
(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.

 

[FN FAL]

For you too lazy to open up your dusty FAR, 61.31(g) states:

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes.


(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:

or

(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.​

​

Thanks User997, I knew my 340 and 414 PIC time wasn't in vain.

 

[sky37d]

Like I said, pressurized, service ceiling of 25000.
Interestingly enough, the new D-Jet will not require a high altitude endorsement.

 

[momalley81]

I may be wrong here, but as I read that, it sounds like the FAA defines a pressurized aircraft, for this reg, as ANYTHING with a service ceiling or max altitude of over 25k.

1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL),

So the existance of a pressurized cabin, interestingly enough, has no bearing on weather or not you need the high-altitude endorsement. If you're flying a 402 (to name one I'm familliar with) you need it, even if the only pressurized thing in the cabin is your thermos of coffee.

I could be wrong, however.

 

[minitour]

Like I said, pressurized, service ceiling of 25000.
Interestingly enough, the new D-Jet will not require a high altitude endorsement.

...or max operating altitude....whichever is lower.

...and the D-Jet will require a type, which would take care of the endorsement anyway.

-mini

 

[User546]

What's the D-Jet's service ceiling then???

 

[Alchemy]

The FAR's say you need the endorsement IF:

THe airplane has a service ceiling or MAXIMUM OPERATING ALTITUDE greather than 25,000, whichever is lower.

On your average P210, those type of airplanes, the MAXIMUM OPERATING ALTITUDE will be less than the service ceiling, and also than 25,000 feet, thus you do not need the endorsement to log PIC.

If you want to know the Answer, go look at the C421 POH/CFM and find out what the MAXIMUM OPERATING ALTITUDE is. As you should know, this is different than the service ceiling.

For the 421, I believe it varies depending on the model. I think some of the older ones were limited to FL 250, meaning you wouldn't need the endorsement. The later models might've been certified up to FL 270, and you would need an endorsement for those.