PIC in a C-421

[flyboyzz1]

just wondering... I need a high alt sign off to act as pic in a C-421 correct?

 

[Sticky]

Yes. If you have a little card from the Air Force proving you went through their FAA sponsored camber course that should work too.

 

[flyboyzz1]

can you get a high alt in a flight sim? Anyone know in what section this is in the regs? Thanks

 

[Airway]

It's pressurized, and I believe it's ceiling is somewhere in the 27K range, in which case you need the high alt.

 

[Airway]

can you get a high alt in a flight sim? Anyone know in what section this is in the regs? Thanks

I can't think of it off the top of my head, but try the FAR/AIM index.

 

[Sticky]

It's pressurized, and I believe it's ceiling is somewhere in the 27K range, in which case you need the high alt.

I went through the FAA physiological traning program at Andrews AFB and was givin a card. That counts, right?

 

[Lear60Guy]

I went through the FAA physiological traning program at Andrews AFB and was givin a card. That counts, right?

That can satisfy the ground portion, but you still have to have inflight (or sim) training to include an emergency descent, you still have to actually get the signoff from a CFI who has it as well.

 

[Airway]

Ok it is 61.31 (pg 51), and Sticky, If that's what they said in the program than you may be ok, but the Regs say you can if you have completed an official "pilot in command check conducted by the militaryservices of the United States" then you should be ok. Not sure though if that is what you did. If you're worried, I'd ask the FSDO. Some of these regs are ambiguous.

Also, according to 61.31 (g)(2), you can use a Sim. Just check out what it says in the book.

 

[Sticky]

OK it is 61.31 (pg 51), and Sticky, If that's what they said in the program than you may be ok, but the Regs say you can if you have completed an official "pilot in command check conducted by the militaryservices of the United States" then you should be ok. Not sure though if that is what you did. If you're worried, I'd ask the FSDO. Some of these regs are ambiguous.

Also, according to 61.31 (g)(2), you can use a Sim. Just check out what it says in the book.

Yeah, because we actually did an emrg. descend in the camber. I was under the impression that it covered everything. There were guys in the class who needed the training to to fly jets.

My card states "This is to certify that the following person has met the requirements for the Physiological Traning Program as proscribed by the FAA"

 

[NoahWerka]

Don't know what the Service Ceiling or the Maximun Operating Altitude is, but, if it is above 25,000 ft., yes.

 

[User546]

I just woke up, so forgive me if this is wrong, but I thought any ATP that had their High Altitude Endorosement could sign you off? For instance, the Chief Pilot covers the appropriate ground material, then takes you up to altitude and performs an emergency descent?

Would I HAVE to go to a Miltary type place to get my ground portion done?

 

[Sticky]

Just spoke to our company training guy and I guess that the altitude camber only counts as the ground portion. However, I'm safe because I got a checkout and endorsement in a C340 about 5 years ago. whew!

 

[av8rbama]

You can, however log PIC as sole manipulator without the endorsement. A properly rated and endorsed pilot acting as PIC must also be present.

 

[AerroMatt]

Service Ceiling on the C421-C is 30000ft. However you have a cabin alt of around 12500 at that altitude, plus the turbo controllers stop working around 25k. Most 421 operators stay below 25 unless they're picking up a big tailwind higher up to justify the much lower TAS.

 

[flyboyzz1]

You can, however log PIC as sole manipulator without the endorsement. A properly rated and endorsed pilot acting as PIC must also be present.

Well what if that properly rated and endorsed pilot doesn't have a medical? That doesn't work correct?

 

[flyboyzz1]

Service Ceiling on the C421-C is 30000ft. However you have a cabin alt of around 12500 at that altitude, plus the turbo controllers stop working around 25k. Most 421 operators stay below 25 unless they're picking up a big tailwind higher up to justify the much lower TAS.

But its bassed off of the service ceiling not the cabin altitude... that is if I read the reg right

 

[Corona]

This thread might take the FI record for most BS, incorrect answers.

The requirements are clearly spelled out in 61.31, (g)(1) through (3) (iv). In fact, the regs don't get much clearer than that.

You don't have to go to any damned altitude chamber.

C

 

[sky37d]

It is entirely my eroneous understanding and interpretation of the regs that if you operate a pressurized airplane that has a service ceiling that is above 25,000 ft, you must have a high altitude endorsement to operate said airplane. This has come up in our skymaster discussions, where it has been truthfully stated that the operator of a pressurized skymaster does not need a high altitude endorsement because the service ceiling is 20,000 ft.

Interestingly enough, there are non-pressurized aircraft that will go above 25,000ft, but since they are not pressurized, no high altitude endorsement is necessary.

 

[av8rbama]

Well what if that properly rated and endorsed pilot doesn't have a medical? That doesn't work correct?

You know what I mean... gotta have a medical to act as pic

 

[User546]

For you too lazy to open up your dusty FAR, 61.31(g) states:

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) High-altitude aerodynamics and meteorology;
(ii) Respiration;
(iii) Effects, symptoms, and causes of hypoxia and any other high-altitude sickness;
(iv) Duration of consciousness without supplemental oxygen;
(v) Effects of prolonged usage of supplemental oxygen;
(vi) Causes and effects of gas expansion and gas bubble formation;
(vii) Preventive measures for eliminating gas expansion, gas bubble formation, and high-altitude sickness;
(viii) Physical phenomena and incidents of decompression; and
(ix) Any other physiological aspects of high-altitude flight.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft unless that person has received and logged training from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft, and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a pressurized aircraft. The flight training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above 25,000 feet MSL;
(ii) Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft; and
(iii) Emergency descent procedures.

(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:
(i) Serving as pilot in command before April 15, 1991;
(ii) Completing a pilot proficiency check for a pilot certificate or rating before April 15, 1991;
(iii) Completing an official pilot-in-command check conducted by the military services of the United States; or
(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.