PBS Frontline expose' on regional airline industry

[WayBack]

Do you get it?

Denial, get of out it.

 

[Balou]

16 hour duty days should be criminal ! Pilots should be limited to 9-10 hours duty and get paid every hour while on duty !! The last hours of a long duty day at night is a very dangourous situation regardless of flight hours or training ! When anyone is tired they just dont think as well or even react the way they normally would if they were well rested and alert !

 

[CX880]

ALPA created this situation. They fought against the B scale, yet in the end, what did they help create, a B scale. I don't even know if ALPA realizes what they have done. This used to be mainline flying on F100's, DC9's and like types. I have roots in the regionals and know that you earn your pay there. However, the pay and benefits has needed to be increased drastic amounts for years. This is where I fault ALPA.

Your right. It's just amazing that ALPA is ok with this and has been for decades. I still think they equate CRJ flying to flying a Metro.

 

[gnx99]

16 hour duty days should be criminal ! Pilots should be limited to 9-10 hours duty and get paid every hour while on duty !! The last hours of a long duty day at night is a very dangourous situation regardless of flight hours or training ! When anyone is tired they just dont think as well or even react the way they normally would if they were well rested and alert !

This one always makes me shake my head in disgust:

121.465 (b)(1) and in probably every airline FOM out there:
"No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may schedule a dispatcher for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty"

 

[lookin4better]

if you can't be part of the solution...be part of the problem...seems like it is a bit backwards...regionals pilots wanting to work for the mainline but then take jobs that undercut the mainline flying but then hope to work for the mainline....weird.

+1!!!!

 

[doh]

Roger and I agree that there can only be one regulator. Right now there are many. Each flight department at each carrier and their respective POI regulate the safety of the system. That is too many. One operating certificate and only one. I'm sure Roger would agree!

 

[flyboyzii]

Story on AOL

http://www.gadling.com/2010/02/09/p...rontline-episode-regional-airlines-dont-want/

Found this on AOL this morning. Same story but at least the story is kind of making the news cycle in other areas rather than just on PBS.

 

[WayBack]

Roger and I agree that there can only be one regulator. Right now there are many. Each flight department at each carrier and their respective POI regulate the safety of the system. That is too many. One operating certificate and only one. I'm sure Roger would agree!

I agree, but it will never happen. The politics behind all of it are too much.

 

[buscap]

Awfully nice of Prater to take part in a total hack job piece of reporting. Absolutely no mention in the piece about the vast differences between many of the regionals. We're all lumped into the same bottom feeding untrained mess.

While not perfect, I would put ASA's training department and safety programs up against that of any carrier out there.

But that's how reporting goes. Prater should be ashamed for sitting his JABA THE HUT fat butt in front of the camera for a program which was going to unfairly defame many dues paying pilots.

Bad ALPA boss!! Bad bad ALPA Boss!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Awfully nice of Prater to take part in a total hack job piece of reporting. Absolutely no mention in the piece about the vast differences between many of the regionals. We're all lumped into the same bottom feeding untrained mess.

While not perfect, I would put ASA's training department and safety programs up against that of any carrier out there.

But that's how reporting goes. Prater should be ashamed for sitting his JABA THE HUT fat butt in front of the camera for a program which was going to unfairly defame many dues paying pilots.

Bad ALPA boss!! Bad bad ALPA Boss!!

Do you favor brand flying be done by the major airline pilots or not? If so, how should it be done? And will be there be some pain?

For example... Say UAL/CAL/DAL said we are going to do the 76+ seat flying... we'll take the e-190s and fly them at mainline...

So managment says 'We got regional airlines that will fly them for regional rates, so if you mainline guys want them... here are the rates"

So mainline pilots agree to fly the regional jets at regional rates...

good, bad, ugly?

 

[buscap]

Do you favor brand flying be done by the major airline pilots or not? If so, how should it be done? And will be there be some pain?

For example... Say UAL/CAL/DAL said we are going to do the 76+ seat flying... we'll take the e-190s and fly them at mainline...

So managment says 'We got regional airlines that will fly them for regional rates, so if you mainline guys want them... here are the rates"

So mainline pilots agree to fly the regional jets at regional rates...

good, bad, ugly?

Not really relevant to my post, but I'll bite.

Being in the seniority position I am, I would be all for it, so long as my butt goes with the plane. But I see no safety value or "taking it back" value in just taking the cream of the regional planes into the majors. So long as a single non-mainline puddle jumper is flying with a mainline logo on it, there will be whipsaw between the regionals and mainline.

If the mainline guys want the 90s or 76s or whatever, they need to take it all in house and deal with that little piece-of-crap prop or RJ being how you start your career at Continental, Delta, American, or United.

So long as any scope is allowed, there will be the problems every mainline pilot is gnashing their teeth about. Management will wave some carrot or threaten with some stick and the senior guys will bite. Next thing you know, we're right back where we started.

So that's my two cents. Take it all, with something besides a straight staple, or hands off!!

And they'll just have to put up with my lazy butt down here flying my shiny jet for lower rates and bringing down the whole industry!!!

 

[sweptback]

Awfully nice of Prater to take part in a total hack job piece of reporting. Absolutely no mention in the piece about the vast differences between many of the regionals. We're all lumped into the same bottom feeding untrained mess.

While not perfect, I would put ASA's training department and safety programs up against that of any carrier out there.

But that's how reporting goes. Prater should be ashamed for sitting his JABA THE HUT fat butt in front of the camera for a program which was going to unfairly defame many dues paying pilots.

Bad ALPA boss!! Bad bad ALPA Boss!!

I am not defending anybody here, but who knows what he said. For all we know he could have gone on a 20 minute tangent about exactly what you wanted him to say, but all that made it was the 30 second soundbite.

News organizations have a habit of cutting out most of the interview and showing only the pieces that prove their points.

I'm sure that Prater knew exactly what he was getting himself into, but it would have looked horrible if ALPA declined to comment on the piece.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Sweptback is absolutely correct. What Prater said was absolutely accurate at many regional airlines. While all of these problems do not apply at all regionals, by raising up the standards at the bottom of the industry we help everyone. Scope and regional flying are products of ALPA's failure to do exactly that in the past. I for one applaud Prater for helping make substandard working conditions known. As pilots we cannot let our sense of "corporate pride" overcome our duty to improve levels of safety across the profession. Many of the problems stated in the program (namely pilot experience and pressure to fly in bad weather) aren't present at my regional, but that's ok. I am willing to endure the nervous glares of a few passengers in exchange for possbility of improving the level of safety across the industry.

What I found most startling was how both Cohen and Bethune stated, even bragged, about the lower costs at the regionals due to "different standards." Wait a minute? You hit the ground just as hard in a little airplane as you do in a big one. Different standards? Not for me... My responsibility to one passenger is the same as my responsibility to 350. It is only a question of degree. That attitude from management is what needs to change before anything else.

 

[J32driver]

What I found most startling was how both Cohen and Bethune stated, even bragged, about the lower costs at the regionals due to "different standards."

I think that was the most disappointing comment of the show. I was actually SHOCKED to hear those words coming out of Bethune's mouth.

 

[Nevets]

As for the guy who was advocating for ALPA, c'mon dude. If safety was their #1 concern, they'd advocate for better regional pay and better schedules and less 16 hr duty and 6 leg days, which could lead to more disposable income, which could get people off of crew room couches and OVER crowded crashpads, which would lead to better rested pilots, which would lead to less fatigued pilots, which could prevent potentially fatal situations!!!!!!!

They are advocating for better pay, better schedules, and less 16 hour duty days.

Still not sure why Rez and Nevets can't figure how it is that ALPA is to thank for the low wages. Because it isn't the whole pilot group in there "negotiating" the wages.
They also don't see the connection between crap pay and safety. But of course, it's never ALPA's fault.

Why would ALPA want low wages? That means less dues money, right? And according to you, ALPA is just interested in 2%. Yeah, ALPA wants all pilots to get paid crap. How is that for sarcasm?

Your right. It's just amazing that ALPA is ok with this and has been for decades. I still think they equate CRJ flying to flying a Metro.

ALPA has finally turned the corner on this. ALPA now has the mentality that flying a jet is flying a jet and its not different if its a 737 or a CRJ.

 

[twinbeech]

Did someone piss in that Ben Coats guys Cheerios? I would bet that to only be there for a year or so, he must have had some other problems. I am not saying that changing weights is ok.... Clearly, it's not. But reporting that wouldn't get him let go. I am going to assume he was just a real joy to fly with.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not really relevant to my post, but I'll bite.

Actually it is relevant. You posit that ALPA isn't doing anything, I suggest a solution to your complaining...

Being in the seniority position I am, I would be all for it, so long as my butt goes with the plane. But I see no safety value or "taking it back" value in just taking the cream of the regional planes into the majors. So long as a single non-mainline puddle jumper is flying with a mainline logo on it, there will be whipsaw between the regionals and mainline.

No, you don't understand. It is not about you... that is the problem right? Individual greed and antipathy that started with the major guys that snubbed the turboprops, then the 50 seat jets.

If the mainline guys want the 90s or 76s or whatever, they need to take it all in house and deal with that little piece-of-crap prop or RJ being how you start your career at Continental, Delta, American, or United.

So UAL just shed its 737 fleet as regional jet flying increased. It was a transfer of jobs not a moving of pilots.

So long as any scope is allowed, there will be the problems every mainline pilot is gnashing their teeth about. Management will wave some carrot or threaten with some stick and the senior guys will bite. Next thing you know, we're right back where we started.

So that's my two cents. Take it all, with something besides a straight staple, or hands off!!

And they'll just have to put up with my lazy butt down here flying my shiny jet for lower rates and bringing down the whole industry!!!

You don't seem to be getting it... regionals are vendors that provide lift. that is part of the Way of Outsourcing in American (WOA!) done in many industries that even we as pilots patronize.

If mainline can lose NBs and jobs to regionals with no seniority gain if they follow the jets to the regionals... are you saying that if mainline gets the jets back that your seniority is portable? Suddenly the application and interview process is not for you?

Not sure what you want here? You want the whipsaw to end, that all flying be done by mainline and you want your seniority to be not only portable but integrated?

Perhaps you didn't read the part in my post that mentioned pain.

It appears the real question here is... if mainline can negotiate regional jets on mainline property.... how do you justify him/her losing seniority to you on his list?

In the end, a radical change will probably call for some pain... however, if you can provide a win win scenario, I am open to hearing it...

 

[Bringupthebird]

So managment says 'We got regional airlines that will fly them for regional rates, so if you mainline guys want them... here are the rates"

So mainline pilots agree to fly the regional jets at regional rates...

That's exactly what happened at Midex. The pilots stood up and refused to grease the slide of the mainline payrates for the entire profession and ended up paying for it with their careers. Now RAH is flying the Midex flying in ERJs for RJ wages.

And nobody gives a damn.

The Midex situation should have been the seminal issue over which an SOS should have been called, but who cares about that little cookie airline up there in Milwaukee. They're still owned by Kimberly Clark, right?

That's something over which ALPA has control and could have some influence. As for scope erosion, take a look at USAirways.

They brought the E190's in house for basically RAH wages. With regionals providing 52% of enplanements, it's only a matter of time before the RJ is the standard against which all pay should be referenced. In the case of US, they have to staff the entire 190 fleet with new-hires (when the furloughees willing to come back run out), since no one in their right mind would take a paycut to go fly it.

Mainlines didn't gut their scope because they felt they were too good to fly a little jet. They simply weren't going to trade their top end wages to bring in a B-scale. The same way the Midex pilots refused to consider their 717 an RJ overnight.

This Quixotic pursuit of consolidating all branded flying under the seniority list of the mainline is as elusive as the holy grail of a National Seniority List.

Face it- Pilots want the power and influence that their greed denys them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Insightful reply.... what do you suggest will happen over the decades and what should pilots do about it?

 

[s3jetman]

Can someone in the know tell me if the captain that was on the paperwork in the video is an x-gstreamer. I saw the video and recognized the name, I may have taught him Basic Indoc at GIA. Just wondering if it was him? Go ahead with the GIA bashing, I am just wondering if I am connected to this aviation mishap as well. thanks

 

[buscap]

Rez,

My post stands on it's own. I wasn't replying to any prior posts, merely making an observation about Prater, which I still stand behind.

And to tie up my bite on the treble hook you cast out, I will say it needs to be all or nothing. Any little turd of scope in any form will leave the cancer to spread anew on another day.

As for me personally, being unlikely to be hired by virtue of a lacking education, please do not expect me to kick myself in the nuts and invite the demise of my employer. I would prefer to be somehow invited a seat at the table by virtue of my experience and record.

Lacking that, I shall choose to do all I can to mentor and develop those who have lead a different life than I and are able to move on to a level of the profession which mysteriously values an education system completely irrelevant to the blue collar nature of our chosen craft.

But, like the judge says, the world needs ditch diggers too.

 

[CX880]

Can someone in the know tell me if the captain that was on the paperwork in the video is an x-gstreamer. I saw the video and recognized the name, I may have taught him Basic Indoc at GIA. Just wondering if it was him? Go ahead with the GIA bashing, I am just wondering if I am connected to this aviation mishap as well. thanks

If I was you, I would have kept that piece of info to yourself...

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Having ALL aircraft and ALL pax on the mainline carrier's airplanes, with one payscale (with a flat minimum for the smalles aircraft), and no code shares is the solution. If you want a "code-share", to provide more feed and/or a larger footprint, you merge with that airline instead.

Is it easy? No.

Would it work. Yes.

cliff
NBO
PS-This applies to FedEx/UPS as well as DAL/CAL.
PPS-I am sometimes flying FedEx/UPS/DHL packages around. It is good for me, but not for the FedEx/UPS/DHL pilots.

 

[bahumba]

Its subtle but if you notice, Roger Cohen is telling the truth. No one is forcing you to work for Colgan. Another words, why would a company change their ways when people still show up for work? No one is forcing you to commute in the back of cargo planes. Average pay for a regional pilot is not 1200 dollars per month. Safety is the number one [/B]priority. Im not saying all of the above are OK but it is what it is. Roger Cohen is speaking on behalf of the company, what do you guys expect?

I'll have to disagree with you there! Everything at the regionals is based on the lowest acceptable cost model. The training is sub-standard compared to the majors - rest/duty is indeed pushed much more at the regionals. The constant pressure of "do it or take a walk" The flying public is being sold a lie when they fly on "regional affiliates" if they believe it is the same as "mainline' I'm sure the flame fest will follow - I just believe it can be better for everyone

 

[Abernathy]

It's too bad Roger Cohen's wife or gay lover (judging from the obvious daily tanning sessions) wasn't on the Colgan flight. I think he'd have held his tongue if this were the case.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's too bad Roger Cohen's wife or gay lover (judging from the obvious daily tanning sessions) wasn't on the Colgan flight. I think he'd have held his tongue if this were the case.

Probably not.... he is doing what is done everyday in DC. Representing his organization. The threads of pilots appalled by Cohen simply show a disconnect for how it gets done in DC.

Not saying anyone should like it. But this stuff goes on everyday in DC. This is just high profile.

Pilots know how regionals treat them. Why would the Regionals representation, the RAA be any different. Do pilots actually expect Cohen to see things a pilots way? Does Cohen look bad on the video aside from the Fake Bake? If you were an investor in the regional airline industry, you'd probably be glad that Cohen was "representing...."

The real question is... do you want your group to be represented as well.

 

[mayoplane]

The point is that I think the wholly-owned's have drastically different experience levels than the contract carriers. So I hope PBS differentiates at least on that point. ...But, talk about pay and work rules all you like.

I disagree. Mesaba has a lot of experienced Capts and FOs, but also a lot of FOs with little experiences. I met bunch of low time FOs from Mesaba in the employee bus. 9E, doesnt have too many low time guys now because they havent hired for a while.

Comair is same as XJ. A lot of experienced guys, but also a few low timers because some of my friends got hired there with low experience.

It all depends on when they last hired pilots.

 

[buscap]

I'll have to disagree with you there! Everything at the regionals is based on the lowest acceptable cost model. The training is sub-standard compared to the majors - rest/duty is indeed pushed much more at the regionals. The constant pressure of "do it or take a walk" The flying public is being sold a lie when they fly on "regional affiliates" if they believe it is the same as "mainline' I'm sure the flame fest will follow - I just believe it can be better for everyone

As a pilot employed at a regional which does not suffer from any of the ailments outlined in your post or on the Frontline show, I would like to object!!!

The broad brush being used to paint the regionals is just as skewed as the one which appears to paint the majors as a bastion of godly pilot competence. And while such characterizations are a consequence of our news cycle, I am troubled that a program like Frontline made such an error.

Perhaps more troubling is the grinning agreement of mainline pilots with the generalizations of the program, most likely in hope of 'taking it back'. And while 'taking it back' is a goal even I classify as positive, I happen to be of the opinion that their idea of 'taking it back' means only taking the larger regional airframes, which will accomplish nothing and only allow the cancer to pop up again.

But back to the real issue about safety at the regionals. I would like to know if any mainline pilot reading this thinks the training and safety at ASA is substandard to the program they now work under at any mainline carrier?

I will hazard a guess that many prior ASA pilots would submit ASA is on par or perhaps even better than mainline.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As a pilot employed at a regional which does not suffer from any of the ailments outlined in your post or on the Frontline show, I would like to object!!!

Is your regional represented by the RAA? If so, then Cohen spoke for your regional.

The broad brush being used to paint the regionals is just as skewed as the one which appears to paint the majors as a bastion of godly pilot competence. And while such characterizations are a consequence of our news cycle, I am troubled that a program like Frontline made such an error.

I commend regional pilots for the safety record in that they do very well with the resources they have compared to MIL and legacy pilots.

Perhaps more troubling is the grinning agreement of mainline pilots with the generalizations of the program, most likely in hope of 'taking it back'. And while 'taking it back' is a goal even I classify as positive, I happen to be of the opinion that their idea of 'taking it back' means only taking the larger regional airframes, which will accomplish nothing and only allow the cancer to pop up again.

Do you exepct the mainline pilots to take all the reginonal aircraft in one event? Is a metered process more reasonable?

But back to the real issue about safety at the regionals. I would like to know if any mainline pilot reading this thinks the training and safety at ASA is substandard to the program they now work under at any mainline carrier?

I will hazard a guess that many prior ASA pilots would submit ASA is on par or perhaps even better than mainline.

It all comes down to money. Budgets. The reason why a Navy pilot with 300 hours can land a jet on a boat is the millions of dollars and time in training.

Delta has had 70 years to perfect its training with a budget larger than ASA. That is the whole point. Delta basically outsourced its training to ASA for cheaper costs. ASA has a good record. Whereas other regionals have not. Has Delta outsourced ASA's flying? Has ASA's training dept becomme too expensive?

That is what happend at CAL who outsourced to XJT who outsourced to Colgan.

Again.. outsourcing is the American Way. When the only lens in which to view is cost... safety becomes ancillary.

 

[samballs]

Probably not.... he is doing what is done everyday in DC. Representing his organization. The threads of pilots appalled by Cohen simply show a disconnect for how it gets done in DC.

Not saying anyone should like it. But this stuff goes on everyday in DC. This is just high profile.

Pilots know how regionals treat them. Why would the Regionals representation, the RAA be any different. Do pilots actually expect Cohen to see things a pilots way? Does Cohen look bad on the video aside from the Fake Bake? If you were an investor in the regional airline industry, you'd probably be glad that Cohen was "representing...."

The real question is... do you want your group to be represented as well.

Yeah, and don't tell me ALPA is doing a good job of it.