PBS Frontline expose' on regional airline industry

[Nevets]

Don't plan on the gloves coming off anytime soon. Civility is ALPA's course of action...has been for many years. It's how they build "credibility" (even if it's at the expense of the membership)

If you can accept the fact that ALPA is looking out for ALPA's best interests FIRST...then you won't be so disappointed in the future. It's all about realistic expectations...and ALPA doesn't deliver on expectations.

Don't forget to mail your dues.

Of course ALPA looks out for ALPA's best interest. Lucky for you that ALPA's best interest are in the best interest of our profession. But you are right in expectations. ALPA is not almighty. Nothing earthly is almighty. So ALPA may want us all to be as safe as possible, paid handsomely, and quality of life as good as you want but it simply cannot snap its fingers and make it happen. There are other forces at work. ALPA puts its force behind the profession. Sometimes that force is enough to make things happen, sometimes enough to keep things from getting worse, and sometimes ALPA gets steamrolled. But if ALPA's force was never there, the likes of Cohen and the RAA would have its day every day.

Dues check off for me, by the way.

ALPA national has become an entity solely capable of setting up glamorous photo ops and putting out a glossy magazine that costs you and I unreasonably close to $1 million/yr to publish because "some people" haven't caught up to the internet age yet.

The gloves won't come off because, like national politics, why "change" the system that got you elected and pays you hundreds of grand each year to pretty much NOT improve conditions for the people who you're supposed to represent?

Really? I guess the half dozen congressional hearings was nothing? Or the NTSB hearings are nothing? Or the Call To Action meetings? Or the ARC? Or the White Paper? And that is just about this one subject! Do you even read that magazine? It tells you about a quarter of what your union does for you and your profession.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe ALPA was not asked to comment? Or that they were asked but it wasn't shown on this snipet?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Of course ALPA looks out for ALPA's best interest. Lucky for you that ALPA's best interest are in the best interest of our profession.

The focus needs to be shifted from the profession to the pilots.

 

[DoinTime]

The focus needs to be shifted from the profession to the pilots.

Shifting focus to individual pilots is exactly how this profession got into the mess that its currently in. The entire scope discussion can be summarized by saying that small groups of pilots acted in their own interests without regard to preserving the profession. These pilots took what was best for them and left nothing for future generations of pilots.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

ALPA caused this problem. ALPA threw those guys at Colgan under the bus. They did it to preserve to pay and benefits of the senior pilots at legacy carriers. If you're junior at an ALPA carrier, piss off, you're furlough fodder. Regional Jets were a bargaining chip: 50 seats; 70 seats; 76 seats. Do I hear 85? 85, how about 90? 100? Son, you don't want to fly those little planes any way. They don't say Boeing on the side of them, there not REAL airliners. Just take another bite of that ******************** sandwich, I'll be retiring just as soon as I turn 60, no make that 65, then you can upgrade and enjoy this "PROFESSION" that I have preserved for you. Keep paying your dues kiddo.

In the last eight years about 10,000 entry level jobs at the legacies have become career positions at the regionals. That's ALPA!

 

[Smarta$$]

Its subtle but if you notice, Roger Cohen is telling the truth. No one is forcing you to work for Colgan. Another words, why would a company change their ways when people still show up for work? No one is forcing you to commute in the back of cargo planes. Average pay for a regional pilot is not 1200 dollars per month. Safety is the number one priority. Im not saying all of the above are OK but it is what it is. Roger Cohen is speaking on behalf of the company, what do you guys expect?

Explain?

 

[CopilotDoug]

The focus needs to be shifted from the profession to the pilots.

I erroneously referred to this industry as a profession. It's closer to a hobby. And it has become a hobby on ALPA's watch.

 

[Nevets]

The focus needs to be shifted from the profession to the pilots.

Focusing on the profession helps all pilots in the profession.

ALPA caused this problem. ALPA threw those guys at Colgan under the bus. They did it to preserve to pay and benefits of the senior pilots at legacy carriers. If you're junior at an ALPA carrier, piss off, you're furlough fodder. Regional Jets were a bargaining chip: 50 seats; 70 seats; 76 seats. Do I hear 85? 85, how about 90? 100? Son, you don't want to fly those little planes any way. They don't say Boeing on the side of them, there not REAL airliners. Just take another bite of that ******************** sandwich, I'll be retiring just as soon as I turn 60, no make that 65, then you can upgrade and enjoy this "PROFESSION" that I have preserved for you. Keep paying your dues kiddo.

In the last eight years about 10,000 entry level jobs at the legacies have become career positions at the regionals. That's ALPA!

Yeah, pilots are their own worst enemy. And not just ALPA pilots either.

I erroneously referred to this industry as a profession. It's closer to a hobby. And it has become a hobby on ALPA's watch.

And you think the likes of JO, Lorenzo, Tilton, etc would have made this profession into what? You make it sound as if ALPA's master plan is to erode everyone's pay.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA caused this problem. ALPA threw those guys at Colgan under the bus. They did it to preserve to pay and benefits of the senior pilots at legacy carriers. If you're junior at an ALPA carrier, piss off, you're furlough fodder. Regional Jets were a bargaining chip: 50 seats; 70 seats; 76 seats. Do I hear 85? 85, how about 90? 100? Son, you don't want to fly those little planes any way. They don't say Boeing on the side of them, there not REAL airliners. Just take another bite of that ******************** sandwich, I'll be retiring just as soon as I turn 60, no make that 65, then you can upgrade and enjoy this "PROFESSION" that I have preserved for you. Keep paying your dues kiddo.

In the last eight years about 10,000 entry level jobs at the legacies have become career positions at the regionals. That's ALPA!

Because you never patronize outsourcing of other industries.... correct?

You can blame ALPA, or you can look in the mirror... Pilots will complain about how they are getting screwed by outsourcing and that ALPA allowed it to happen... then those same pilots will take thier cash and go to another industry and undercut some guy trying to make a living by doing buisness with someone who outsources....

Tell us.... how was ALPA supposed to have stopped this from ever happening...... in addition, lets deal in the here and now.... how is ALPA ( and only ALPA? or can the APA and RAH pilots be a part of the solution? What about the Skywest and jB pilots... can they help too? Or is ALPA responsible for everyone?)

How is ALPA supposed to fix this....

Shall DAL/UAL/CAL start flying regional jets at regional pay rates? Why would management agree to allow 90 seaters on mainline property when they can get regional guys to fly them at regional rates?


Finally, this was a 10 minute preview of the Frontline show for next week. Let's watch the entire show before casting stones....

 

[Shrek]

Its subtle but if you notice, Roger Cohen is telling the truth. No one is forcing you to work for Colgan. Another words, why would a company change their ways when people still show up for work? No one is forcing you to commute in the back of cargo planes. Average pay for a regional pilot is not 1200 dollars per month. Safety is the number one priority. Im not saying all of the above are OK but it is what it is. Roger Cohen is speaking on behalf of the company, what do you guys expect?

Another fine quote from one of GoJet's finest aviators. uke:

 

[CopilotDoug]

Tell us.... how was ALPA supposed to have stopped this from ever happening...

Not supporting Ted Kennedy.

in addition, lets deal in the here and now.... how is ALPA ( and only ALPA? or can the APA and RAH pilots be a part of the solution? What about the Skywest and jB pilots... can they help too? Or is ALPA responsible for everyone?)

How is ALPA supposed to fix this...

You can't now. The genie is out of the bottle. ALPA is worthless at this point.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

They could have said, "We'll fly those planes at mainline." Held the line on scope. Instead they said screw the junior guys, they haven't paid their dues, I want mine! Spin off the Barbie jets and give me a raise.

 

[Grey Ghost]

he is wrinkled and ORANGE!!!

 

[suupah]

HA HA grey ghost! hey, make a one of your world famous avatars featuring cohen!

 

[Nevets]

Not supporting Ted Kennedy.

You can't now. The genie is out of the bottle. ALPA is worthless at this point.

You feel that this was all because of deregulation?

ALPA fights to make your profession safer. How is that worthless?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I applaud the two Colgan pilots for taking a chance to voice their concerns on camera.

Now for the rest of you that are at Colgan, hearing them say that the company is willing to falsify duty-in times, etc to keep you legal is VERY bothersome. Are these two guys pretty accurate in their accounts of Colgan Management?

 

[agonyairfo]

side note here...

from Jumpers away:

"...the regionals ought to be stapled to their respective carriers mainline seniority list. However, I have NEVER met a mainline pilot that thought this was an acceptable idea. They're worried about the talent of the pilots being stapled.

My solution is just do the staple, and let the weak fall through in the training process for other aircraft. As I've said prior- let the managements worry about hiring qualifications and let the pilots worry about the pay....."[/QUOTE]

The funny thing is that most wholly-owned regional pilots today, (Comair, Eagle, Mesaba) the ones who might be integrated with their respective "mainline" carrier, are very experienced. The contract airlines are the ones who seem to have gone on those recent hiring binges of low time pilots.

Flying with Comair now, I usually end up flying with a Captain who has around 20 years (I fly the CRJ7/9). I have 10.5 years of 121 experience and 8,000 in turbine alone and I am just the junior fo. I am not an anomaly either. There are a lot of Comair fo's who have come from Eagle, Mesaba, Midway, etc., who probably are pushing 10+ years in part 121 too. (The left seat in CVG starts at 12 years I think.) So, the moral is I think we frequently have more combined experience than our MD80 or 737 counterparts at DAL. Just a guess, not trying to make an empirical statement or speak qualitatively about that experience..although, we are not failing check-rides left and right either.

The point is that I think the wholly-owned's have drastically different experience levels than the contract carriers. So I hope PBS differentiates at least on that point. ...But, talk about pay and work rules all you like.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You feel that this was all because of deregulation?

By and large, yes. By that point, ALPA had become a little too comfortable on Capitol Hill and hadn't (and still doesn't) realize that the days of Dave B. and FDR chumming it up were over.

ALPA fights to make your profession safer. How is that worthless?

Open your eyes man, it's not a profession anymore. It's a hobby. When regional pilots need to work two jobs to make ends meet, and mainline pilots are retiring with no retirement....it's no longer a viable career for many and is anything BUT a profession. Do you think many of today's pilots are steering their children away from flying because of safety related issues or pay?

 

[Nevets]

By and large, yes. By that point, ALPA had become a little too comfortable on Capitol Hill and hadn't (and still doesn't) realize that the days of Dave B. and FDR chumming it up were over.

Open your eyes man, it's not a profession anymore. It's a hobby. When regional pilots need to work two jobs to make ends meet, and mainline pilots are retiring with no retirement....it's no longer a viable career for many and is anything BUT a profession. Do you think many of today's pilots are steering their children away from flying because of safety related issues or pay?

You want to argue semantics. Whatever you want to call it, what we do, is safer because of ALPA.

 

[J.Otto]

Its subtle but if you notice, Roger Cohen is telling the truth. No one is forcing you to work for Colgan. Another words, why would a company change their ways when people still show up for work? No one is forcing you to commute in the back of cargo planes. Average pay for a regional pilot is not 1200 dollars per month. Safety is the number one priority. Im not saying all of the above are OK but it is what it is. Roger Cohen is speaking on behalf of the company, what do you guys expect?

In a sense, hes right. if you have a trust fund or rich daddy, you dont have to rough it in a crash pad, just live in a base in a nice apt and can use your paltry take home pay as beer money.

sure, lots can do it on these wages.... the rich....

 

[CX880]

Not supporting Ted Kennedy.

You can't now. The genie is out of the bottle. ALPA is worthless at this point.

No they are not worthless, and the alternative is much worse like having to fake you mothers death to get out of a crew scheduling issue at Skywest. No one's there to support you. We are labor, and are completely worthless to management. The only reason why the non union carriers and others have some sort of success is because of ALPA. They want to keep alpa away so they one up the incentives. If alpa were gone with the rest of the unions we would be working for minimum wage. I think you are expecting too much out your union.