Pay for Time or Training?

[flydog]

The type rating is not a prerequisite for hiring at Southwest. Once you are hired you must get your type. And obviously unlike all PFT programs working at Southwest is available only to those that are qualified. More qualified pilots are not being discriminated againist and the company doesnt profit from your "tuition". Not to mention the fact that their minimums are much more stringent than most airlines (1000 hr PIC turbine for example). You can get your 737 type and not be hired by SWA

If a guy wants to go out and buy every type rating in the world and then go look for work that isnt PFT. This is along the same lines of being a contract pilot. The pilot is taking the risk and putting himself in the same pool as other qualified applicants not buying a job

 

[utahpilot]

easy.....

I understand the need to flame on this subject. I'll rephrase to simplify and clarify.

My friend is (was) a CFI/MEI. The time he got was in a 135 environment flying cargo in a Beech 99. He was a required crewmember. There is no promise of a job at the end, that I know of.

During his interview at COEX, the interviewer remarked that the 300 turbine hours in a 135 op were great experience. He got the job (now on furlough).

My question was, (taken from his statements) aren't 300 turbine hours flying cargo in weather and in a real world ATC environment more similar to the 121 job he seeks? Doesn't that, therefore, make for better experience for someone trying to improve his skills in order to move on from instructing to the airlines? Doesn't the experience gained in the Beech far outweigh the experience one could get splitting hood time with a buddy in a light twin?

sorry, thought I needed to clarify. I know that in the end, most folk hate this type of thing, and that's what I tried to tell him. But he argues that the airlines want you to have as much experience in operations similar to theirs, and that he has formed the opinion that it was a good move. I have students who question me about these types of programs, so I thought I'd get ya'lls input.

mahalo

 

[CaptBuzzard]

I will not and I repeat will not ever pay for training. I've paid enough to get to where I am and cannot justify paying for some turbine time or even doing a SIC program for anyone. Forget it. I am perfectly content instructing until I can get the job that I want. This is not to offend anyone who has ever paid for training at either a regional, or 135 operation, but I just won't fork out any money to work for a company. I would sign a 2-year contract or whatever at a regional that is in good standing, but not at one who I wouldn't want to be there for 2 years. But saying that, if I wouldn't want to be at a company for 2 years, I wouldn't go there. If Skywest required me to sign one, I wouldn't hesitate for one second, but some of the others I would have to think about. I personally think that I would achieve more by doing what I am doing rather than doing a SIC program for a freight company and having to pay for it. I didn't come this far to continue to pay for my work. Just my opinion, and I know others won't agree but that is why we have these message boards, so we can voice our opinions. See ya all later.

 

[Timebuilder]

Utah, you raise an interesting point. He was a required crewmmember in a 99, and was paying for that?

It's one thing when Airnet has you ride along in a Baron, learning their company, routes and procedures until PIC qualified at 1200 hours, without paying for the job, and being a real employee from day one.

It's another thing when there is no real job, and you are more passenger than pilot in an operation where you can legally log SIC time, although the aircraft is certified as single pilot. Is their operation more similar to a 121 job than instructing in a Seneca? Yes. Is his experience tainted because of the circumstances? Yes.

This makes him look like he is cutting corners to get ahead, and those who took a longer and more ethical (yes, this is a value judgement) road WILL recognize the difference. He'd be better off getting that Initial from Simu-Flite and getting hired as a REAL SIC, without the PFT stain.

My two cents, of course.

 

[R8J]

Re: easy.....

utahpilot...

I understand the need to flame on this subject. I'll rephrase to simplify and clarify.

My friend is (was) a CFI/MEI. The time he got was in a 135 environment flying cargo in a Beech 99. He was a required crewmember. There is no promise of a job at the end, that I know of.

There are operations that have people flying in the right seat with minimal training, santa claus checkrides, non-working or very few instruments for the FO. They are there in spirit, but to consider them a "crewmember" is a stretch in many cases. I'm sure there are also exceptions.

During his interview at COEX, the interviewer remarked that the 300 turbine hours in a 135 op were great experience. He got the job (now on furlough).

Of course 300 hours turbine time looks good to an interviewer. But if the interviewer has the same opinion of PFT as most people, they can just as easily shoot you down.

My question was, (taken from his statements) aren't 300 turbine hours flying cargo in weather and in a real world ATC environment more similar to the 121 job he seeks? Doesn't that, therefore, make for better experience for someone trying to improve his skills in order to move on from instructing to the airlines? Doesn't the experience gained in the Beech far outweigh the experience one could get splitting hood time with a buddy in a light twin?

It probably is better experience than splitting hood time. But at what cost. Given a little more experience, and if other people weren't in line to PFT, your bud could have landed the SAME job AND gotten paid to work there. This is the problem with PFT in any form. Sometimes the shortcuts work out for people. Sometimes they dead-end.

sorry, thought I needed to clarify. I know that in the end, most folk hate this type of thing, and that's what I tried to tell him. But he argues that the airlines want you to have as much experience in operations similar to theirs, and that he has formed the opinion that it was a good move. I have students who question me about these types of programs, so I thought I'd get ya'lls input.

Does the end justify the means?

mahalo

 

[utahpilot]

ends and means

yes, I believe the question here is 'does the end justify the means?'

myself and many others have heard these kind of comments from everyone:

"Seniority is everything-your lifestyle, pay, schedule, etc. Everyday that goes by that you don't establish it is a day someone else will. Get your time and get your spot as fast as you can."

"Quality of time is most important. Get the most ME turbine time you can."

I could go on, and I should clarify I'm not defending anything. I don't have the cash to buy my hours, but I can't help feeling cheated that what matters in an interview and what will pay off in the end (seniority) doesn't always jive with the value judgements that are made.

For me, I'll keep instructing to build time, probably have to end up buying lots of ME time because I can't get enough students to build it, and show up to interview someday hoping like everyone else. I'd just hate to be sitting reserve for a year and run into one of my co-horts and hear him/her say "I did the time build thing, and it got me here faster and with better experience."

your well thought out answers are appreciated..

UP

 

[TangoIndiaMike]

My 1st and ONLY Post on PFT

Here it is...not that it matters, but this is my view of PFT (be it training, or flight hours). I am posting it once, so that people may see another angle on it...Good, Bad, or Ugly...

I am assuming that the person's goal is to make it to a 121 Major...This is the economic perspective behind a smart person's decision to go the PFT route.

1. No matter who we are, we all have one thing in common...limited time. We each have only 24 hours per day on this earth. Time is the ONLY limiting variable that is constant for each person.

2. Therefore, every person should be working to reach their own personal goals by maximizing their use of their own time.

3. So if someone has money and can bypass 1-3 YEARS of CFI/Traffic-Watch/Cargo, get a lower seniority number, and be on the path to make more money, then it only makes sense that they do it.

This is an investment that will pay for itself in: higher salary sooner, 'better job', additional 1-2 years at 74/76 payscale on the backside of your career, etc.

4. People will (and should) trade $, etc, in order to maximize their time.

**PFT may not be fair to the people without money, but from the perspective of someone that has resources, and wants to minimize their time at the bottom of the ladder, it makes sense.

Maybe the people who PFT are 'weaker' or less driven to achieving their goal? Or maybe they understand the value of time? Or maybe neither...maybe their Daddy made them do it?

Disclaimer...I am CFI flying about 10 hours/week, with no ties to PFT, 121, 135, or even Banner Towing. I understand why people PFT, but it is not for me.

 

[Timebuilder]

Just as with the RJ debate, few will become convinced to change the perspective that they currently value. The hope here is to share the range of opinions on these topics, particularly where a younger pilot is concerned.

The opinion that you need to get the seniority number ASAP has some merit, but it is endemic in our modern culture to seek goals in a framework of "instant gratification". If it were otherwise, we wouldn't see ads that promise to take you from zero time to the right seat in "x" number of months.

The debate revolves around whether the PFT pilot is as experienced as those who took the more "traditional" route of instruction and freight flying, or if the PFT pilot simply has found a way to trade money for some numbers on a paper. The ethics are in the eye of the beholder, and the beholder may be a hiring captain who worked his way up through the ranks. Is the benefit worth the risk?

May the Buyer Beware.

 

[canadflyau]

my first post on this PFT stuff

Well as I see it (am furloughed- trained on the DHC-8, given over 500 hrs of dual, 150 of which was as an MEI, and only 900TT, earned my private went to 4 yr college got instrument & commercial, then paid for my CFI while I co-oped at Delta and only paid through CFI) That is my perspective.

I just wonder what all these people have to say about programs that I have come across where you drop 40 grand and you come out the other side as a CFI working for the company whom you paid the money to for your training, and in the process you bought turbine time, included in the training. Or Tab Express where after your private almost all your training is in a King Air (by the way I think it cost almost $75K to go to this school)

For some of these responses I have read, I think the only way that person could be the most ethical person during their training is to have the majority of it paid for... and I think for those people the only route I know that will do that is the military.

Here comes my .02, I am furloughed and can't get ACA to even glance in my direction why? My total time is low. Even though I clawed my way to get that 121 job w/out dropping a dime. Would I love to flight instruct somemore? YOU BET!!! Can I? NO... Every flight school (and I have made multiple visits to every one within 60 miles) that I have walked into to hand my resume has handed it right back, because there is not enough students and a flood of flight instructors. What it used to be (pre 9/11) was a catch 22, if you had 500 hrs you couldn't get a Instructing job because you were going to get hired and leave the school to quickly. I don't think I can fault those guys for trying to find alternate ways to get the credentials they need while getting practical experience and needed flight time.. and to those of you who feel its a blanket opinion that HR doesn't like to see PFT (Alpine Air) I was told the exact opposite by one of the CP's who interviews pilots at ASA. WHAT I FIND DISCONCERTING is the programs that are out there (San Juan Program) and I qoute from their web-site "Upon completion of the program, successful graduates go through the Mesa hiring process. Those who are hired then go directly into the right seat as First Officers. Average flight time at the point of hire is 300 hours! "

I personally find this to be more of a threat, encouraging pilots to pay big bucks and come out with ABSOLUTELY NO PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE flying a jet .80 mach and with 50 people on board down to mins in rain. Just ask most MESA captains for their opinion. Paying for additional training to be ready when preperation meets opportunity versus paying for training so to get a airline job effortlessly without gaining practical experience (ie good hard IMC, CFIing) that is the injustice to our profession in my opinion.

I personally am thinking of joining a flying club for the time being, while I answer calls in a cubical to support my family.

 

[de727ups]

Rolling eyes saying "here we go again"..

"My question was, (taken from his statements) aren't 300 turbine hours flying cargo in weather and in a real world ATC environment more similar to the 121 job he seeks? Doesn't that, therefore, make for better experience for someone trying to improve his skills in order to move on from instructing to the airlines? Doesn't the experience gained in the Beech far outweigh the experience one could get splitting hood time with a buddy in a light twin?"

I would answer all your questions with a YES. Yet, you say he was a required crewmember and he paid for it? To that I say he's one small step above a scab and that far outweights all the benefits of the program. These programs take advantage of pilots by making the right seat a profit center and by taking away what would traditionally be a paying job. Sure...it wouldn't pay much but that's not the point. The only way to stop these programs is for guys to quit going there.

So an interviewer at COEX thought it was a great idea. Any management puke or pro-management line guy interviewer is gonna say that. How about the vast majority of hard working line guys you gotta live with. Few fights will start over PFT on the line....but inside, most guys who came up the hard way (the vast majority) are going to look down on PFT.

I'd feel less strongly about it if the PFTer was NOT a required crewmember and taking away a job.

 

[cvsfly]

People (in this country) are free do whatever they want with their money - by time, PFT or whatever. The airlines in a free market are free to pay or be paid for their crews. We as professional pilots are free to organize against practices that will deteriorate our profession in just compensation. We as consumers are free to determine who we fly with. Are you comfortable putting your family on an aircraft crewed by an overworked, low-paid captain and an inexperienced low time pilot who is there because he can pay to be there? In the end, being a pilot is just another job. We are all trying to support our families, our selves, and (in the case of those suffering from Aviation Induced Divorce Sydrome) all the above. Don't buy into the hype that this is a dream job and you would do anything to get to that great airline job in the sky. (Yes it can be pretty good - keep it a secret, but there are plenty of sacrifices too. I would hope all of us would be able to get other jobs if flying did not work out. It is not everybodys right to make it in this business. Pilots are a small segment of the aviation picture. There are costs and benefits to all segments. Those operators who can manage all cost and benefits in a reasonable way have a good chance of surviving and lasting long enough to employ the next generation of bus drivers. Those that don't may not have a right to continue to exist. Shed a few tears if you want, but move on.

 

[Ty Webb]

T-I-M:

PFT doesn't guarantee anything. Anyone who has been in this industry for any period of time can tell you that. Eastern and Pan Am were some of the proudest names in the industry. With a seniority number from either of them, and a bus ticket, you can ride the bus.

When I hired on at AirTran, most of my class were guys from Midway. Most of them had been Captains, and most of them thought that they would be there for life. Now, they're starting over, in the right seat, and hoping that this will be a job through retirement.

If life were simply about making money quickly, then, yes, PFT would be the way to go. However, most people enter this industry because they love to fly. When you get to fly the big stuff, you realize that it isn't "flying" as you knew it and loved it. It has its own challenges, and some days are beautiful and fun, and others are long days plagued with delays and frustrations. It is a j-o-b, pure and simple. It's a better job for me than most, but it is most definitely a job.

In other words, don't be in such a stampede to the flight deck, get here when it is time, and enjoy all of the steps along the way. It'll give you things to remember and think about, when you're droning along on your third 2.5 hour leg, watching the little white airplane track the magenta course line . . . . .

 

[Timebuilder]

>> cadadflyay wrote:For some of these responses I have read, I think the only way that person could be the most ethical person during their training is to have the majority of it paid for... and I think for those people the only route I know that will do that is the military.

The PFT debate isn't about getting your initial training paid for you. People pay to learn all kinds of things. I was on the Dean's list at college, and I was offered ZERO scholarships because of my gender and ethnic background, although I made little money. I had to pay full price for all of my courses, while those with poorer quality work and lower admission grades and SAT scores paid little or nothing, because they wre "preferred" students. End of that speech.

PFT is about paying someone to allow you to work as a crewmember where you would have otherwise been hired and trained at your employer's expense. Usually this only buys you a limited amount of time as the crewmember, at which point you are replaced by the next "crewmember", the one who is ready to write this "employer" a check. This displaces a qualified pilot who is in need of a job. The employer takes advantage of these paying pilots, who want to get their seniority number at any cost.

I hope that gives you a clearer picture of this ongoing discussion. Using the search function will uncover many opinions and facts surrounding this issue.

Good observations, Ty. I spend a lot of time looking at that little white airplane....

 

[canadflyau]

Please correct me if I am wrong

I am unfamiliar with the Alpine Air, Eagle Aviation (I believe I heard they do this) operations... but aren't these companies flying their a/c as single pilot on their operating certficate? So therefore them offering a training program on the side isn't taking anyones job, but just an additional source of income for these companies. (Again I am speculating and asking, not stating!! lol!) but in order for these guys/gals to sit up front and log time they have to do a SIC check, right? but aren't a required crewmember..

 

[Timebuilder]

Whether or not they need an SIC check isn't what I would be wondering about. If this is a single pilot operation, not under part 91, how would they be able to log ANY of the time? What would be the point? That sounds like their insurance company wants a second pilot.

I sat as a PAID pilot in the right seat of a Navajo, but logged none of that time. Instead, I logged the part 61 PIC time as sole manipulator on the part 91 dead legs. For me, that made the whole deal worthwhile.