Part 135 First Officer Intern Wanted

[brokeflyer]

not only that, but they are charging people for flight time that they can't legally log.

piece of sh1t is putting it lightly.

 

[time builder]

This is relevant exactly how?

You said I "kicked them to the curb when their money ran out." Far from the truth. You made the claim, called it "fact," and I called you on it. You were wrong and can't deny it, so you twist it into something else.

Go ahead, try to turn even that one on me. Tell me I'm wrong and can't admit it. Just because you disagree with me, it's your opinion and doesn't mean everyone else shares it.

Go on, paint the picture about how eeeevil I am. Even more so how evil "the man" is. Assemble your crowd, put on a "dog and pony show." After all, you're right, PFT is a label used to excite the ignorant. And what better crowd than one that's disgruntled and having a hard time finding work.

Seriously now, before I totally give up on having a reasonable discussion, let me just say you actually had some good points in the first post. How paying for education doesn't apply to this internship, though, well, that's where you lost me (as in I strongly disagree). Again, good point about being PFT being a misused label, that was pretty much my argument in the post you responded to. My point was the hypocrisy in usage of such a label.

And on the subject of hypocrisy, this debate is filled with it. Just about everything said about the cargo FO program could be said about safety pilot time or instructors using their certificate to split time. It's legal, it saves time and money for those building time. They are providing a service for the guy in the left seat, and paying to do so, but it's a mutually beneficial arrangement so no one seems to care. I'm not debunking the legitimacy of it, just saying it's hypocritical to say that time spliting is valid and cargo FO programs are not. My opinion, take it or leave it.

If you want to debate, lets keep going, but if it's just going to be a bunch of personal attacks, I'm out.

 

[brokeflyer]

there really isnt anything to debate. This sh1t hole company charges for time that SIC's cant legally log.

 

[avbug]

You sound very much like a mewling little weasil with little to say but a lot about which to cry.

Yes, people beat you up, and yes, you deserve it.

Yes, you're perpetuating a sickness in the industry, and more's the pity that you take pride in doing so, make excuses for your participation, and even promote the idea. Again, this does not speak well of you. Nothing you can do or say will redeem you for this, save for the fortitude to walk away.

Just about everything said about the cargo FO program could be said about safety pilot time or instructors using their certificate to split time. It's legal, it saves time and money for those building time. They are providing a service for the guy in the left seat, and paying to do so, but it's a mutually beneficial arrangement so no one seems to care. I'm not debunking the legitimacy of it, just saying it's hypocritical to say that time spliting is valid and cargo FO programs are not. My opinion, take it or leave it.

Never the less, you continue to defend your sniveling, pathetic, underhanded dirty practice. You'd do well to shut up and slink away, because you rot in daylight. You really do.

You wish to compare individuals paying for the rental of an aircraft with an indvidual paying for the privilege of doing a professional job? You feel there's some comparison between a student gaining experience, and a paid position for which the employee must pay for the privilege of labor? You fail to see how this may cheapen the industry, lower the bar, and represents nothing more than defecation in the bed in which you lie? Given your sentiment thus far, your failure to realize is perhaps genuine, of no surprise, but also of no consequence. You're proud to be part of the sickenss, and this is all one need know.

Your opinion? Leave it, of course.

You said I "kicked them to the curb when their money ran out." Far from the truth. You made the claim, called it "fact," and I called you on it. You were wrong and can't deny it, so you twist it into something else.

The mewling and bawling rolls on.

Yes, when you're done raping your victims, when they can't pay for the privilege of being raped, you kick them to the curb. You're proud that they go on to live a productive life, ever bit that an abusive priest who rapes young boys might be proud that later they don't hang themselves, and actually find work. It's of no redemption to you, however, who have already been willingly complicit in the crime. That your rape victims paid for the privilege doesn't justify your crime, nor does their prostitution make you righteous.

Fact is that when the money runs out, you have a new victim to rape, and the old goes to the curb. What they do after that is of no consequence to you...you fly for an operation that simply takes another on board...requiring an employee to pay for the right of performing professional labor. This cheapens you, cheapens the industry at as a whole, and lowers the bar for everyone. You're dirty. Tell yourself what you wish to help yourself feel clean if you think it helps. Don't expect anyone else to listen to your lie.

Character is what you are, and what you do when no one is looking. Yours is apparent, all the same.

 

[Paradoxus]

You sound very much like a mewling little weasil with little to say but a lot about which to cry.

Scathing. Well authored post. I know it isn't a laughing matter, but that little interlocution made my day. Heh.

 

[skysharke]

I'm all for them being in the airplane. But there's no reason that the company should charge someone for it. Especially since there is a real possibility that the "SIC" in this case can't technically log the time.

The "safety pilot" as we'll call him would be very useful. I used to take one along on my cargo flights whenever I could. Fetch charts, make a phone call to the company while I paid fees or vice versa, etc. But my company understood it for what it was. Someone who could log a little time on the part 91 legs and who could reduce our workload during normal ops with cargo. Everybody won, nobody was taken advantage of. They developed a sense of how we operated and would be great employees when they got the time required. More than one guy came along through that company that way. We liked having them around and they learned a lot and didn't have to pay us for it, and since they weren't required crew it was volunteer work. Though, we would at least buy their meals on the road. And there were a lot of part 91 legs as we zig zagged across N. America and Mexico so they did get some good twin time out of the deal. And international experience. All it cost them was their time and gas to drive to the airport.

Again, everybody won.

This sounds more inline with an intern position.

The intern position listed for Freight Runners is nothing more then robbery. Freight Runners should be blackballed for this SH!t. Do not follow Gulfstream Airlines example unless you want a very ugly name in the industry. Isn't someone helping you load and unload an airplane in the middle of the night payment enough to sit right seat.

~ Greed is a fat demon with a small mouth and whatever you feed it is never enough. ~

 

[time builder]

You know Avbug, every time you post, it further proves you know very little about me, and I'm starting to think that's a good thing.

The part about me getting "beat up," I had to chuckle, not that the threat of physical violence is something to take lightly, just that the last "internet tough guy" to confront me in such a way met me in real life a few months later. Turns out he was the scrawny little guy. Talk about an awkward moment. I'm just glad we ended up being friends in the end.

You want me to walk away, what can I say, I'm just about done here.

 

[time builder]

For anyone considering this FO program, don't let these guys bully you. Loud voices and gathering mobs don't always represent a majority. You can succeed despite their hate.

It's a tough road, know your options (and what justifies them, single pilot in a BE99 is listed as a minimum, not as a requirement or a maximum, if you're legally justified, you're required as far as logging it goes, same goes for splitting time). In the end make your own decision.

I do recommend that you do something that doesn't take anyone's job, and I can't empahsize enough that the seats right seats would (and do) go empty in these cargo planes without the intern FOs. Heck, if you're my FO and you only want to fly on sunny days, on light routes, or where the customer can be asked to completely handle the cargo and we just supervise (which in my case is all of them), it's your investment, do what's best for you. You don't have to accept any route or or fly with any captain you don't like.

Whatever way you decide to go, good luck.

 

[avbug]

It's a tough road, know your options (and what justifies them, single pilot in a BE99 is listed as a minimum, not as a requirement or a maximum, if you're legally justified, you're required as far as logging it goes, same goes for splitting time).

Alright, mentor. Tell us about logging time for the SIC. You've stipulated that you don't have operations specifications requiring a SIC. It's a freight operation, meaning the requirement of 14 CFR 135.101 (requiring a SIC) don't apply. This leaves you with a requirement by the aircraft certification, to have a second pilot as a required crewmember, and your aircraft doesn't require one. With this being the case, a SIC required neither by the aircraft certification nor by the regulations under which the flight is operated...how do you establish the legal basis for logging flight time in accordance with 61.51, then?

Your firm, of whom you are rather proud, is charging a large sum for the privilege of logging a few hours of flight time. You state that one is legally justified. Show us the justification.

Under 135.109 the certificate holder designates the acting PIC for the flight. This eliminates one from logging time as SIC under the guise of acting as SIC. Therefore one is left to log time as sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. If indeed one is logging time as PIC when acting as SIC under 135, the only option remaining to log the time, incidentally, then one is pushing both the bounds of reasonableness as well as severely cheating the rape victim who prostitutes himself for the ethical (and economic) sodomy you provide.

Furthermore, if you have no requirement legally for a SIC, you now run up against the limitation provided by 135.115, which prevents one not employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft from manipulating the flight controls. One cannot be qualified in the aircraft under Part 135 without being authorized under Part 135...and one cannot act as SIC under Part 135 when a SIC isn't required or authorized.

Under IFR, a SIC is always required, the exception being an authorization to act single pilot with autopilot...but this requirement pertains to passenger carrying operations. Not freight. In order to operate with an authorized SIC under Part 135, one requires authorization to do so, as well as full 135.293 checks and FAA authorization. You've indicated that your firm doesn't hold authorization for a SIC...so again, wherein are you "legally justified?"

More to the point, whether you feel you're "legally justified" or not is largely irrelevant in light of the fact that you're not hiring a SIC. You're whoring out the seat to those willing to pay. Any organization which rapes it's own employees, which makes a profit off the employee, has a serious problem. In this case, you're a proud part of an organization which funds the flight with the money paid by the employee. The pilot who is hired to transport goods from A to B isn't paid to perform that labor, but pays to perform that labor...and whether you pay to be there or your rape victims pay to be there, you're both as complicit, both as dirty. You might be drawing a wage yourself (which also makes you a hypocrite), but you're just as dirty as the fool next to you who pays to be there. You're a willing participant in the show, and are no better than those you bend over for a few hours and financially sodomize.

For those idiotic enough to participate in the program, who come away with two hundred fifty hours of "quality" turbine time in a questionable and unethical program...bear in mind it's worth nearly nothing in the big scope of things. SIC time isn't worth anything, really, and two hundred fifty hours isn't worth anything significant, either. It's a paltry, unimpressive, couple hundred hours in a rather unremarkable aircraft performing an unnecessary duty for which you weren't hired or evaluated based on your superior skills...but because you paid to be there. Not exactly something that speaks very highly of you, or of your former "employer" (wait! NOT an employer...because you paid them...remember?!?). Those two hundred fifty hours in your logbook don't make you skilled, or legal, or justified. Just a prostitute who professes ignorance. Do YOU know the legal basis for the time you log? You should. It's a legal document, after all.

Heck, if you're my FO and you only want to fly on sunny days, on light routes, or where the customer can be asked to completely handle the cargo and we just supervise (which in my case is all of them), it's your investment, do what's best for you. You don't have to accept any route or or fly with any captain you don't like.

Ah, now there's some genuine, hard-core, real world experience for you. This is you, mentoring the future pilots of America? You can come on my airplane, you say, and do nothing, if you like. It's okay. It's your money. You look out the window, smell the flowers, refuse any flight you like because you don't have a deep, abiding love for the captain, and be free to live a life of religious fulfillment. It's all good.

This mimics a "real job?" This is "experience?" Real companies, and real employers, of course, don't bring pilots on board who can't handle flying in the conditions assigned to them. You, of course, suggest openly that it's okay...come fly with you, and don't worry about the weather, or the cargo, or the client, or the pilots...because you're free to do whatever you want. After all, you're paying for it...no pressure. Peace. Love. Happiness. Don't worry about work...after all, this isn't a real job. Just one in which you pay an ungodly sum to henscratch a few ink lines in a logbook.

For those considering flying with this rapist, do this: falsify your logbook. You're already getting nothing for your money and why spend that kind of money for a fake job with no responsibilities and obligations, when you can do the same thing for a few cents in your logbook? You're being lied to now. You're engaging in the big lie by taking the "job." So long as you're going to be wrapped in a lie and a falsehood, you might as well save yourself the thousands of dollars, buy a cheap pen, and log the time. You'll come away equally as experienced, you won't go through life with that post-rape feeling, and you'll still have the time in your logbook. After all, it's unethical anyway, and if you're considering being dishonest about it and combining with those who are dishonest enough to take your money, the least you can do for yourself is save the money, lie anyway, and move on with your life. Right?

 

[time builder]

Alright, mentor. Tell us about logging time for the SIC. You've stipulated that you don't have operations specifications requiring a SIC. It's a freight operation, meaning the requirement of 14 CFR 135.101 (requiring a SIC) don't apply. This leaves you with a requirement by the aircraft certification, to have a second pilot as a required crewmember, and your aircraft doesn't require one. With this being the case, a SIC required neither by the aircraft certification nor by the regulations under which the flight is operated...how do you establish the legal basis for logging flight time in accordance with 61.51, then?

Your firm, of whom you are rather proud, is charging a large sum for the privilege of logging a few hours of flight time. You state that one is legally justified. Show us the justification.

Under 135.109 the certificate holder designates the acting PIC for the flight. This eliminates one from logging time as SIC under the guise of acting as SIC. Therefore one is left to log time as sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. If indeed one is logging time as PIC when acting as SIC under 135, the only option remaining to log the time, incidentally, then one is pushing both the bounds of reasonableness as well as severely cheating the rape victim who prostitutes himself for the ethical (and economic) sodomy you provide.

Furthermore, if you have no requirement legally for a SIC, you now run up against the limitation provided by 135.115, which prevents one not employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft from manipulating the flight controls. One cannot be qualified in the aircraft under Part 135 without being authorized under Part 135...and one cannot act as SIC under Part 135 when a SIC isn't required or authorized.

Under IFR, a SIC is always required, the exception being an authorization to act single pilot with autopilot...but this requirement pertains to passenger carrying operations. Not freight. In order to operate with an authorized SIC under Part 135, one requires authorization to do so, as well as full 135.293 checks and FAA authorization. You've indicated that your firm doesn't hold authorization for a SIC...so again, wherein are you "legally justified?"

More to the point, whether you feel you're "legally justified" or not is largely irrelevant in light of the fact that you're not hiring a SIC. You're whoring out the seat to those willing to pay. Any organization which rapes it's own employees, which makes a profit off the employee, has a serious problem. In this case, you're a proud part of an organization which funds the flight with the money paid by the employee. The pilot who is hired to transport goods from A to B isn't paid to perform that labor, but pays to perform that labor...and whether you pay to be there or your rape victims pay to be there, you're both as complicit, both as dirty. You might be drawing a wage yourself (which also makes you a hypocrite), but you're just as dirty as the fool next to you who pays to be there. You're a willing participant in the show, and are no better than those you bend over for a few hours and financially sodomize.

For those idiotic enough to participate in the program, who come away with two hundred fifty hours of "quality" turbine time in a questionable and unethical program...bear in mind it's worth nearly nothing in the big scope of things. SIC time isn't worth anything, really, and two hundred fifty hours isn't worth anything significant, either. It's a paltry, unimpressive, couple hundred hours in a rather unremarkable aircraft performing an unnecessary duty for which you weren't hired or evaluated based on your superior skills...but because you paid to be there. Not exactly something that speaks very highly of you, or of your former "employer" (wait! NOT an employer...because you paid them...remember?!?). Those two hundred fifty hours in your logbook don't make you skilled, or legal, or justified. Just a prostitute who professes ignorance. Do YOU know the legal basis for the time you log? You should. It's a legal document, after all.



Ah, now there's some genuine, hard-core, real world experience for you. This is you, mentoring the future pilots of America? You can come on my airplane, you say, and do nothing, if you like. It's okay. It's your money. You look out the window, smell the flowers, refuse any flight you like because you don't have a deep, abiding love for the captain, and be free to live a life of religious fulfillment. It's all good.

This mimics a "real job?" This is "experience?" Real companies, and real employers, of course, don't bring pilots on board who can't handle flying in the conditions assigned to them. You, of course, suggest openly that it's okay...come fly with you, and don't worry about the weather, or the cargo, or the client, or the pilots...because you're free to do whatever you want. After all, you're paying for it...no pressure. Peace. Love. Happiness. Don't worry about work...after all, this isn't a real job. Just one in which you pay an ungodly sum to henscratch a few ink lines in a logbook.

For those considering flying with this rapist, do this: falsify your logbook. You're already getting nothing for your money and why spend that kind of money for a fake job with no responsibilities and obligations, when you can do the same thing for a few cents in your logbook? You're being lied to now. You're engaging in the big lie by taking the "job." So long as you're going to be wrapped in a lie and a falsehood, you might as well save yourself the thousands of dollars, buy a cheap pen, and log the time. You'll come away equally as experienced, you won't go through life with that post-rape feeling, and you'll still have the time in your logbook. After all, it's unethical anyway, and if you're considering being dishonest about it and combining with those who are dishonest enough to take your money, the least you can do for yourself is save the money, lie anyway, and move on with your life. Right?

Wow avbug, a mostly factual debate, I'm proud of you (please don't take this as sarcasm either).

Anyone considering a cargo FO program should consider these arguments, and if they do so, they should know how to justify themselves against such claims. Hence, I think this kind of online debate is productive, thanks for participating, avbug! Again, no sarcasm intended.

Folks have tried to pin the original poster with not having ops specs, not me. I've said otherwise, but maybe you missed that part.

Yes they are considered employees to the extent required to meet the regs, thus they will get a part 135 checkride/training, drug testing, a PRIA report etc. What they won't necessarily get is an interview, a route schedule that they are required to comply with, a paycheck etc.

The suggestion that they fly when they want is to put to rest the idea proposed by you and others that this is some sort of a scheme to get workers for free, like I said, it's their investment, most do want the hard IFR time, so they do come on board, I can't force them to though, and on this matter I can't speak for other companies, or even for mine, so I only speak for myself.