Part 135 First Officer Intern Wanted

[time builder]

Yes, but there may not be a need for the SIC in which case training and a checkride are totally extraneous and only exist to generate justification to charge for the seat.

I'm going to leave the "extraneous" adjective as "subject to opinion." However, you do concede that there is legal justification for the FO, and that's what I'm after.

On a side note, I look at what I've posted previously and would like to give a quick disclaimer. I'm neither management nor a company spokesperson, and am not entitled to speak on behalf of my company, I'm merely stating things as I see them, and giving my opinion.

I have nothing to gain from guys joining these FO programs other than the 5 bucks per flight hour when they fly with me, and the satisfaction of seeing mentoring at work.

 

[time builder]

Seriously, the hypocrisy in this industry is killing me. The fact that my college professor could spend a good chunk of class time preaching to us that we be better do all our certificates and ratings with the college or else we won't have a job when we graduate, is downright wrong. But, seems like everyone else played into it, and thus it was status quo, and it doesn't get any attention. For crying out loud folks, to funnel tens of thousands of dollars into your program with the incentive of working for the people you just paid? This doesn't get the label PFT and the shame that goes with it?

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Someone who knows new pilots considering this route, tell them to RUN (not walk) away.

Do you really think an airline that wants its FO to PAY to fly, would have your best interest in mind?

Do you know that many operators will NOT hire you if they see these operators on your resume?

If you have an extra $13k, invest it in something useful, like a business degree. If you don't have the cash, forget it and save your credit.

What the OP is doing is taking advantage of an opportunity in supply and demand. Sadly, this opportunity reeks of poor ethics, and probably reflects on his treatment of others, work conditions, and maintenance and adherence to regulations.

With tough times comes opportunity. If aviation becomes saturated, find another field. You NEVER have to whore yourself to make a successful career.

CE

 

[spacecadet1]

I think being a prostitute would be more worthwhile. At least you'd be providing a needed service.

 

[avbug]

Seriously, the hypocrisy in this industry is killing me. The fact that my college professor could spend a good chunk of class time preaching to us that we be better do all our certificates and ratings with the college or else we won't have a job when we graduate, is downright wrong. But, seems like everyone else played into it, and thus it was status quo, and it doesn't get any attention. For crying out loud folks, to funnel tens of thousands of dollars into your program with the incentive of working for the people you just paid? This doesn't get the label PFT and the shame that goes with it?

Didn't your high-priced education teach you the difference between college and a job?

Forget the labels. Most blather on about "PFT" and don't have a clue what they're talking about. Set the label aside.

Your college encouraged you to do your training at the school, lied to you, intimidated you, blah, blah, blah. What has this to do with the price of tea in china?

Your employer is making a profit, and requires employees who will function for a wage in order to make that profit. The employer has hired one pilot, then convinced another to pay for the opportunity to work there. This is not "PFT" (pay for training), this is pay-for-work. While encouraging or requiring pilots to pay for their training does meet with some distain, requiring pilots to pay for their jobs, work for free, and even house themselves at the same time is far worse.

You've rabbited on about a legal need for the SIC...show it.

You've rabbited on about mentoring. Is this the case? You've prostituted out another pilot, used and abused him or her, then kicked them to the curb when the money runs out...and feel proud that you've "mentored" them. In fact, the pilot has been willingly raped, being too young, too inexperienced, and too stupid to know otherwise, and you're proud to have helped...and the company things the victim should be grateful for the opportunity. Quite a racket there.

No...not "PFT." That's really a term that the ignorant get excited about and toss around. This is worse, and it lowers the bar across the board. It lowers the bar for employers, who can get a ready supply of inexperienced pilots to come pay to work for them, and it lowers the bar for pilots who find that employers don't pay a fair wage when they can get cheap, even paying, labor.

If you're in a single pilot aircraft (lacking the authority or requirement for a second pilot) and charging others to ride along, and don't have the legal basis for those others to even log the time, let alone be a required crewmember, you're running a scam program and perpetuating a falsehood. It's the big lie, and you're charging others for the privilege of living the big lie. How wonderful that you're proud to be a part of the big lie, isn't it?

Seems you're not only an enemy to the pilot body, but to the industry at large, as well as a moral criminal and an ethical rapist. Your pride in your work speaks volumes about your character and your place in this world. By all means. Keep talking. You're digging yourself deeper and deeper. If you keep up, eventually you'll bury yourself.

 

[svcta]

I'm going to leave the "extraneous" adjective as "subject to opinion." However, you do concede that there is legal justification for the FO, and that's what I'm after.

I have done no such thing! I've been pointing out that with no written, regulatory requirement for the FO there can be no SIC time logged. I don't care how many checkrides you administer or how much training you sell.

This company is selling bridges in New York City for all practical purposes.

 

[time builder]

You've rabbited on about mentoring. Is this the case? You've prostituted out another pilot, used and abused him or her, then kicked them to the curb when the money runs out...and feel proud that you've "mentored" them. In fact, the pilot has been willingly raped, being too young, too inexperienced, and too stupid to know otherwise, and you're proud to have helped...and the company things the victim should be grateful for the opportunity. Quite a racket there.

Actually, every single one of my FOs has found a job flying turbine equipment. The majority within their first 100 hours in the program. You think you know me, think again.

Oh, and I have a bunch of classmates who never found their first flying job. So your description of the "victim" applies so much more to them than to my FOs.

The rest, I mean reallly, I've carried on a debate with svcta for a couple pages, and it's been pretty civilized in my opinion. I respect him for that. I have no problem with people disagreeing with my opinion, but the "shot in the dark" personal slander, really? I expect more from you avbug, you're a smart guy, you don't have to stoop to that level.

 

[time builder]

I have done no such thing! I've been pointing out that with no written, regulatory requirement for the FO there can be no SIC time logged.

Apologies, then, that's what it sounded like to me.

 

[avbug]

Actually, every single one of my FOs has found a job flying turbine equipment. The majority within their first 100 hours in the program.

This is relevant exactly how?

If what you do is wrong, then it's wrong. Period. Justifying it doesn't change that.

What you do, working pilots who pay to do a job instead of getting paid, is wrong. Period.

The ends do not justify the means.

You think you know me, think again.

I know more about you than I wish to know, and it disgusts me. Your pride in what you do tells me all I need to know. Your comments tell the rest. That you're proud of that which should shame you is most telling of all.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with my opinion, but the "shot in the dark" personal slander, really?

There's been no slander here. Your invocation of the word doesn't change that one iota. You've admitted not only to participation with a program in which individuals pay for their jobs, but to your wholehearted support and pride in "mentoring" such a program. You've grandly presented yourself as a participant in a program which deflates and defecates upon the industry as a whole, and which is both reprehensible and morally without a redeeming value. That your rape victims later become gainfully employed doesn't change the fact that your program raped them, any more than a woman who is raped and later marries and becomes a mother is no longer a rape victim. The woman will always be a victim, as will your students, and you're a willing actor in the process.

That any employer considers accepting pay for a working employee to perform his or her job, or accepts anyone who would be so willing is a pathetic commentary on the ethical depravity to which those of hollow character and no soul will allow themselves to go. Your commentary would have us believe you are such a character. That your defense is so thin as to attempt to justify your participation by suggesting your rape victims go on to find a better life does nothing whatsoever to redeem you or the program you support. In fact, all it does is utterly condemn you, as it well should.

 

[T-1GUY]

What a piece of sh*t!!!

 

[brokeflyer]

not only that, but they are charging people for flight time that they can't legally log.

piece of sh1t is putting it lightly.

 

[time builder]

This is relevant exactly how?

You said I "kicked them to the curb when their money ran out." Far from the truth. You made the claim, called it "fact," and I called you on it. You were wrong and can't deny it, so you twist it into something else.

Go ahead, try to turn even that one on me. Tell me I'm wrong and can't admit it. Just because you disagree with me, it's your opinion and doesn't mean everyone else shares it.

Go on, paint the picture about how eeeevil I am. Even more so how evil "the man" is. Assemble your crowd, put on a "dog and pony show." After all, you're right, PFT is a label used to excite the ignorant. And what better crowd than one that's disgruntled and having a hard time finding work.

Seriously now, before I totally give up on having a reasonable discussion, let me just say you actually had some good points in the first post. How paying for education doesn't apply to this internship, though, well, that's where you lost me (as in I strongly disagree). Again, good point about being PFT being a misused label, that was pretty much my argument in the post you responded to. My point was the hypocrisy in usage of such a label.

And on the subject of hypocrisy, this debate is filled with it. Just about everything said about the cargo FO program could be said about safety pilot time or instructors using their certificate to split time. It's legal, it saves time and money for those building time. They are providing a service for the guy in the left seat, and paying to do so, but it's a mutually beneficial arrangement so no one seems to care. I'm not debunking the legitimacy of it, just saying it's hypocritical to say that time spliting is valid and cargo FO programs are not. My opinion, take it or leave it.

If you want to debate, lets keep going, but if it's just going to be a bunch of personal attacks, I'm out.

 

[brokeflyer]

there really isnt anything to debate. This sh1t hole company charges for time that SIC's cant legally log.

 

[avbug]

You sound very much like a mewling little weasil with little to say but a lot about which to cry.

Yes, people beat you up, and yes, you deserve it.

Yes, you're perpetuating a sickness in the industry, and more's the pity that you take pride in doing so, make excuses for your participation, and even promote the idea. Again, this does not speak well of you. Nothing you can do or say will redeem you for this, save for the fortitude to walk away.

Just about everything said about the cargo FO program could be said about safety pilot time or instructors using their certificate to split time. It's legal, it saves time and money for those building time. They are providing a service for the guy in the left seat, and paying to do so, but it's a mutually beneficial arrangement so no one seems to care. I'm not debunking the legitimacy of it, just saying it's hypocritical to say that time spliting is valid and cargo FO programs are not. My opinion, take it or leave it.

Never the less, you continue to defend your sniveling, pathetic, underhanded dirty practice. You'd do well to shut up and slink away, because you rot in daylight. You really do.

You wish to compare individuals paying for the rental of an aircraft with an indvidual paying for the privilege of doing a professional job? You feel there's some comparison between a student gaining experience, and a paid position for which the employee must pay for the privilege of labor? You fail to see how this may cheapen the industry, lower the bar, and represents nothing more than defecation in the bed in which you lie? Given your sentiment thus far, your failure to realize is perhaps genuine, of no surprise, but also of no consequence. You're proud to be part of the sickenss, and this is all one need know.

Your opinion? Leave it, of course.

You said I "kicked them to the curb when their money ran out." Far from the truth. You made the claim, called it "fact," and I called you on it. You were wrong and can't deny it, so you twist it into something else.

The mewling and bawling rolls on.

Yes, when you're done raping your victims, when they can't pay for the privilege of being raped, you kick them to the curb. You're proud that they go on to live a productive life, ever bit that an abusive priest who rapes young boys might be proud that later they don't hang themselves, and actually find work. It's of no redemption to you, however, who have already been willingly complicit in the crime. That your rape victims paid for the privilege doesn't justify your crime, nor does their prostitution make you righteous.

Fact is that when the money runs out, you have a new victim to rape, and the old goes to the curb. What they do after that is of no consequence to you...you fly for an operation that simply takes another on board...requiring an employee to pay for the right of performing professional labor. This cheapens you, cheapens the industry at as a whole, and lowers the bar for everyone. You're dirty. Tell yourself what you wish to help yourself feel clean if you think it helps. Don't expect anyone else to listen to your lie.

Character is what you are, and what you do when no one is looking. Yours is apparent, all the same.

 

[Paradoxus]

You sound very much like a mewling little weasil with little to say but a lot about which to cry.

Scathing. Well authored post. I know it isn't a laughing matter, but that little interlocution made my day. Heh.

 

[skysharke]

I'm all for them being in the airplane. But there's no reason that the company should charge someone for it. Especially since there is a real possibility that the "SIC" in this case can't technically log the time.

The "safety pilot" as we'll call him would be very useful. I used to take one along on my cargo flights whenever I could. Fetch charts, make a phone call to the company while I paid fees or vice versa, etc. But my company understood it for what it was. Someone who could log a little time on the part 91 legs and who could reduce our workload during normal ops with cargo. Everybody won, nobody was taken advantage of. They developed a sense of how we operated and would be great employees when they got the time required. More than one guy came along through that company that way. We liked having them around and they learned a lot and didn't have to pay us for it, and since they weren't required crew it was volunteer work. Though, we would at least buy their meals on the road. And there were a lot of part 91 legs as we zig zagged across N. America and Mexico so they did get some good twin time out of the deal. And international experience. All it cost them was their time and gas to drive to the airport.

Again, everybody won.

This sounds more inline with an intern position.

The intern position listed for Freight Runners is nothing more then robbery. Freight Runners should be blackballed for this SH!t. Do not follow Gulfstream Airlines example unless you want a very ugly name in the industry. Isn't someone helping you load and unload an airplane in the middle of the night payment enough to sit right seat.

~ Greed is a fat demon with a small mouth and whatever you feed it is never enough. ~

 

[time builder]

You know Avbug, every time you post, it further proves you know very little about me, and I'm starting to think that's a good thing.

The part about me getting "beat up," I had to chuckle, not that the threat of physical violence is something to take lightly, just that the last "internet tough guy" to confront me in such a way met me in real life a few months later. Turns out he was the scrawny little guy. Talk about an awkward moment. I'm just glad we ended up being friends in the end.

You want me to walk away, what can I say, I'm just about done here.

 

[time builder]

For anyone considering this FO program, don't let these guys bully you. Loud voices and gathering mobs don't always represent a majority. You can succeed despite their hate.

It's a tough road, know your options (and what justifies them, single pilot in a BE99 is listed as a minimum, not as a requirement or a maximum, if you're legally justified, you're required as far as logging it goes, same goes for splitting time). In the end make your own decision.

I do recommend that you do something that doesn't take anyone's job, and I can't empahsize enough that the seats right seats would (and do) go empty in these cargo planes without the intern FOs. Heck, if you're my FO and you only want to fly on sunny days, on light routes, or where the customer can be asked to completely handle the cargo and we just supervise (which in my case is all of them), it's your investment, do what's best for you. You don't have to accept any route or or fly with any captain you don't like.

Whatever way you decide to go, good luck.

 

[avbug]

It's a tough road, know your options (and what justifies them, single pilot in a BE99 is listed as a minimum, not as a requirement or a maximum, if you're legally justified, you're required as far as logging it goes, same goes for splitting time).

Alright, mentor. Tell us about logging time for the SIC. You've stipulated that you don't have operations specifications requiring a SIC. It's a freight operation, meaning the requirement of 14 CFR 135.101 (requiring a SIC) don't apply. This leaves you with a requirement by the aircraft certification, to have a second pilot as a required crewmember, and your aircraft doesn't require one. With this being the case, a SIC required neither by the aircraft certification nor by the regulations under which the flight is operated...how do you establish the legal basis for logging flight time in accordance with 61.51, then?

Your firm, of whom you are rather proud, is charging a large sum for the privilege of logging a few hours of flight time. You state that one is legally justified. Show us the justification.

Under 135.109 the certificate holder designates the acting PIC for the flight. This eliminates one from logging time as SIC under the guise of acting as SIC. Therefore one is left to log time as sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. If indeed one is logging time as PIC when acting as SIC under 135, the only option remaining to log the time, incidentally, then one is pushing both the bounds of reasonableness as well as severely cheating the rape victim who prostitutes himself for the ethical (and economic) sodomy you provide.

Furthermore, if you have no requirement legally for a SIC, you now run up against the limitation provided by 135.115, which prevents one not employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft from manipulating the flight controls. One cannot be qualified in the aircraft under Part 135 without being authorized under Part 135...and one cannot act as SIC under Part 135 when a SIC isn't required or authorized.

Under IFR, a SIC is always required, the exception being an authorization to act single pilot with autopilot...but this requirement pertains to passenger carrying operations. Not freight. In order to operate with an authorized SIC under Part 135, one requires authorization to do so, as well as full 135.293 checks and FAA authorization. You've indicated that your firm doesn't hold authorization for a SIC...so again, wherein are you "legally justified?"

More to the point, whether you feel you're "legally justified" or not is largely irrelevant in light of the fact that you're not hiring a SIC. You're whoring out the seat to those willing to pay. Any organization which rapes it's own employees, which makes a profit off the employee, has a serious problem. In this case, you're a proud part of an organization which funds the flight with the money paid by the employee. The pilot who is hired to transport goods from A to B isn't paid to perform that labor, but pays to perform that labor...and whether you pay to be there or your rape victims pay to be there, you're both as complicit, both as dirty. You might be drawing a wage yourself (which also makes you a hypocrite), but you're just as dirty as the fool next to you who pays to be there. You're a willing participant in the show, and are no better than those you bend over for a few hours and financially sodomize.

For those idiotic enough to participate in the program, who come away with two hundred fifty hours of "quality" turbine time in a questionable and unethical program...bear in mind it's worth nearly nothing in the big scope of things. SIC time isn't worth anything, really, and two hundred fifty hours isn't worth anything significant, either. It's a paltry, unimpressive, couple hundred hours in a rather unremarkable aircraft performing an unnecessary duty for which you weren't hired or evaluated based on your superior skills...but because you paid to be there. Not exactly something that speaks very highly of you, or of your former "employer" (wait! NOT an employer...because you paid them...remember?!?). Those two hundred fifty hours in your logbook don't make you skilled, or legal, or justified. Just a prostitute who professes ignorance. Do YOU know the legal basis for the time you log? You should. It's a legal document, after all.

Heck, if you're my FO and you only want to fly on sunny days, on light routes, or where the customer can be asked to completely handle the cargo and we just supervise (which in my case is all of them), it's your investment, do what's best for you. You don't have to accept any route or or fly with any captain you don't like.

Ah, now there's some genuine, hard-core, real world experience for you. This is you, mentoring the future pilots of America? You can come on my airplane, you say, and do nothing, if you like. It's okay. It's your money. You look out the window, smell the flowers, refuse any flight you like because you don't have a deep, abiding love for the captain, and be free to live a life of religious fulfillment. It's all good.

This mimics a "real job?" This is "experience?" Real companies, and real employers, of course, don't bring pilots on board who can't handle flying in the conditions assigned to them. You, of course, suggest openly that it's okay...come fly with you, and don't worry about the weather, or the cargo, or the client, or the pilots...because you're free to do whatever you want. After all, you're paying for it...no pressure. Peace. Love. Happiness. Don't worry about work...after all, this isn't a real job. Just one in which you pay an ungodly sum to henscratch a few ink lines in a logbook.

For those considering flying with this rapist, do this: falsify your logbook. You're already getting nothing for your money and why spend that kind of money for a fake job with no responsibilities and obligations, when you can do the same thing for a few cents in your logbook? You're being lied to now. You're engaging in the big lie by taking the "job." So long as you're going to be wrapped in a lie and a falsehood, you might as well save yourself the thousands of dollars, buy a cheap pen, and log the time. You'll come away equally as experienced, you won't go through life with that post-rape feeling, and you'll still have the time in your logbook. After all, it's unethical anyway, and if you're considering being dishonest about it and combining with those who are dishonest enough to take your money, the least you can do for yourself is save the money, lie anyway, and move on with your life. Right?

 

[time builder]

Alright, mentor. Tell us about logging time for the SIC. You've stipulated that you don't have operations specifications requiring a SIC. It's a freight operation, meaning the requirement of 14 CFR 135.101 (requiring a SIC) don't apply. This leaves you with a requirement by the aircraft certification, to have a second pilot as a required crewmember, and your aircraft doesn't require one. With this being the case, a SIC required neither by the aircraft certification nor by the regulations under which the flight is operated...how do you establish the legal basis for logging flight time in accordance with 61.51, then?

Your firm, of whom you are rather proud, is charging a large sum for the privilege of logging a few hours of flight time. You state that one is legally justified. Show us the justification.

Under 135.109 the certificate holder designates the acting PIC for the flight. This eliminates one from logging time as SIC under the guise of acting as SIC. Therefore one is left to log time as sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. If indeed one is logging time as PIC when acting as SIC under 135, the only option remaining to log the time, incidentally, then one is pushing both the bounds of reasonableness as well as severely cheating the rape victim who prostitutes himself for the ethical (and economic) sodomy you provide.

Furthermore, if you have no requirement legally for a SIC, you now run up against the limitation provided by 135.115, which prevents one not employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft from manipulating the flight controls. One cannot be qualified in the aircraft under Part 135 without being authorized under Part 135...and one cannot act as SIC under Part 135 when a SIC isn't required or authorized.

Under IFR, a SIC is always required, the exception being an authorization to act single pilot with autopilot...but this requirement pertains to passenger carrying operations. Not freight. In order to operate with an authorized SIC under Part 135, one requires authorization to do so, as well as full 135.293 checks and FAA authorization. You've indicated that your firm doesn't hold authorization for a SIC...so again, wherein are you "legally justified?"

More to the point, whether you feel you're "legally justified" or not is largely irrelevant in light of the fact that you're not hiring a SIC. You're whoring out the seat to those willing to pay. Any organization which rapes it's own employees, which makes a profit off the employee, has a serious problem. In this case, you're a proud part of an organization which funds the flight with the money paid by the employee. The pilot who is hired to transport goods from A to B isn't paid to perform that labor, but pays to perform that labor...and whether you pay to be there or your rape victims pay to be there, you're both as complicit, both as dirty. You might be drawing a wage yourself (which also makes you a hypocrite), but you're just as dirty as the fool next to you who pays to be there. You're a willing participant in the show, and are no better than those you bend over for a few hours and financially sodomize.

For those idiotic enough to participate in the program, who come away with two hundred fifty hours of "quality" turbine time in a questionable and unethical program...bear in mind it's worth nearly nothing in the big scope of things. SIC time isn't worth anything, really, and two hundred fifty hours isn't worth anything significant, either. It's a paltry, unimpressive, couple hundred hours in a rather unremarkable aircraft performing an unnecessary duty for which you weren't hired or evaluated based on your superior skills...but because you paid to be there. Not exactly something that speaks very highly of you, or of your former "employer" (wait! NOT an employer...because you paid them...remember?!?). Those two hundred fifty hours in your logbook don't make you skilled, or legal, or justified. Just a prostitute who professes ignorance. Do YOU know the legal basis for the time you log? You should. It's a legal document, after all.



Ah, now there's some genuine, hard-core, real world experience for you. This is you, mentoring the future pilots of America? You can come on my airplane, you say, and do nothing, if you like. It's okay. It's your money. You look out the window, smell the flowers, refuse any flight you like because you don't have a deep, abiding love for the captain, and be free to live a life of religious fulfillment. It's all good.

This mimics a "real job?" This is "experience?" Real companies, and real employers, of course, don't bring pilots on board who can't handle flying in the conditions assigned to them. You, of course, suggest openly that it's okay...come fly with you, and don't worry about the weather, or the cargo, or the client, or the pilots...because you're free to do whatever you want. After all, you're paying for it...no pressure. Peace. Love. Happiness. Don't worry about work...after all, this isn't a real job. Just one in which you pay an ungodly sum to henscratch a few ink lines in a logbook.

For those considering flying with this rapist, do this: falsify your logbook. You're already getting nothing for your money and why spend that kind of money for a fake job with no responsibilities and obligations, when you can do the same thing for a few cents in your logbook? You're being lied to now. You're engaging in the big lie by taking the "job." So long as you're going to be wrapped in a lie and a falsehood, you might as well save yourself the thousands of dollars, buy a cheap pen, and log the time. You'll come away equally as experienced, you won't go through life with that post-rape feeling, and you'll still have the time in your logbook. After all, it's unethical anyway, and if you're considering being dishonest about it and combining with those who are dishonest enough to take your money, the least you can do for yourself is save the money, lie anyway, and move on with your life. Right?

Wow avbug, a mostly factual debate, I'm proud of you (please don't take this as sarcasm either).

Anyone considering a cargo FO program should consider these arguments, and if they do so, they should know how to justify themselves against such claims. Hence, I think this kind of online debate is productive, thanks for participating, avbug! Again, no sarcasm intended.

Folks have tried to pin the original poster with not having ops specs, not me. I've said otherwise, but maybe you missed that part.

Yes they are considered employees to the extent required to meet the regs, thus they will get a part 135 checkride/training, drug testing, a PRIA report etc. What they won't necessarily get is an interview, a route schedule that they are required to comply with, a paycheck etc.

The suggestion that they fly when they want is to put to rest the idea proposed by you and others that this is some sort of a scheme to get workers for free, like I said, it's their investment, most do want the hard IFR time, so they do come on board, I can't force them to though, and on this matter I can't speak for other companies, or even for mine, so I only speak for myself.