Paperless Cockpits

[Bjetset2]

Does anyone know if two PORTABLE EFBs on the flight deck is acceptable for going without paper approach plates? I have read the FAA AC, but as usual I am getting two different answers from two different FDSOs. Part 91 Corporate Ops, US and Western EU. Thanks for any input.

 

[H.Agenda]

That was my understanding

But you'll have to find it in print to be sure. Is this your first time paperless?

I didnt care for the tablet PC version of jeps for approaches, it was a little smaller than the actual approach..

for enroute high and low they are great.

I switched back to paper, in a pinch I like old faithful. I was burned a couple times by a frozen computer/ computer glitch, etc when I really need them to work.

Those panel mounted collins look outstanding though.

 

[Capt1124]

My reading of the ACs is if you want to go without paper backups you have to have an STC'd mount for the EFB. I don't know if these are available yet although somebody at NavAero told me they werer working on it.

 

[Excel'n]

We've run part 91 that way for years. We never asked a FSDO. We never had a visit from them during that time, but on a recent 135 route check, no mention was made either way by the FED. Part 91, maybe you want to use them until they say you can't, then ask them to support that position?

 

[421Driver]

From someone at ADI in PTK, there are 3 levels of installations. To be certified, I believe it has to have a type III installation, which includes a STC'ed mount with a hard wired power supply. A non-STC'ed mount with hard-wired power is type II, and I can't remember what type I entailed.

It's been awhile since I spoke with them, but I bet they could answer some of your questions.

 

[Spooky 1]

But you'll have to find it in print to be sure. Is this your first time paperless?

I didnt care for the tablet PC version of jeps for approaches, it was a little smaller than the actual approach..

for enroute high and low they are great.

I switched back to paper, in a pinch I like old faithful. I was burned a couple times by a frozen computer/ computer glitch, etc when I really need them to work.

Those panel mounted collins look outstanding though.

Agree with H. Agenda for the most part. We (Part 91) are using a Fujitsu tablet for the JeppView material as well as each pilot has this same info on his personal laptop. Carry backup batteries for the Fujitsu and print all the known airports out on paper before we leave for the trip, Dest, Alts, ETP Alts, etc. Then if there is a change enroute do to the principal wanting a new destination, or an emergency we revert to the Fujitsu. Also carry a printer onboard that would allow for us to print charts if there was enough time. As far as the FAA is concerend, the fact that we are printing the charts before hand, and-or have the capability to do the same, they don't care about are application of this technology. We are just evaluating several Type ll systems for all of our aircraft and should have it installed before the end of summer.

No question that the viewing on the Fujitsu, leaves something to be desired!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Agree with H. Agenda for the most part. We (Part 91) are using a Fujitsu tablet for the JeppView material as well as each pilot has this same info on his personal laptop. Carry backup batteries for the Fujitsu and print all the known airports out on paper before we leave for the trip, Dest, Alts, ETP Alts, etc. Then if there is a change enroute do to the principal wanting a new destination, or an emergency we revert to the Fujitsu. Also carry a printer onboard that would allow for us to print charts if there was enough time. As far as the FAA is concerend, the fact that we are printing the charts before hand, and-or have the capability to do the same, they don't care about are application of this technology. We are just evaluating several Type ll systems for all of our aircraft and should have it installed before the end of summer.

No question that the viewing on the Fujitsu, leaves something to be desired!

ditto what spooky says. 2 tablets with Jeppview/Flightdeck in the aircraft, ability to print.

Print out everything you may need befrehand as reading those things SUCKS.

never had to actually use one for an approach after many years of using them.

PS - Jeppview is the most pathetic program ever made IMHO.

 

[Bjetset2]

EFBs

Thanks everyone for the advice!!! We are evaluating this issue and all of your experience really helps!! I just wish the FAA was consistent at each FSDO location as to their interpretation of the AC. Oh well, what else is new?

 

[TXGold]

We use them in both the GIV and CE-680. The ones we have in the Gulfstream are nice for using during taxi(shows a little airplane symbol thru GPS taxiing around the 10-9 chart), and are great for alternates. Since we print the charts out that we are going to need, we hardly use them. I suggest if you can get one that mounts to the yoke you will be more inclined to use it, that is if there is room. EFB's are a neccasary evil if you want to print your own charts and not have a huge amount of updates to tackle or books to carry around.

TXGold

 

[mike1mc]

For 135 ops, two units are required including a printer and a 6-month trial period. For 91 you do not require any approvals from the FSDO and I don't think you need two units. I have a King Air paperless under 91 and it only has one Class 3 EFB ("Tablet PC" EFBS are usually Class 2). It would be good practice to have 2 units onboard anyway.

STC for hardmount is NOT required. We operate a Lear 60 and Challenger 604 without STCs for hardmounts. You can use them as "loose equipment". We had to develop a procedure to use the EFBs this way under 135. I beleive FLOPS also uses the units this way. Maybe someone can confirm this.

 

[AA717driver]

Our Fujitsu's are piled up in a corner of the office.

We got full-size tablets as backups to the PlaneView/Jeppview. The tablets are great for viewing but they take forever to boot up. Hope I'm never on fire and have to get them going.

On international, we print everything up beforehand. On domestic, we keep paper charts in a book for the three or four primary destinations we go to. Otherwise, we live on the edge without paper... TC

 

[Spooky 1]

I agree. We keep the things turned on and ready to go but just the same there are times when I think this would never work if we really needed them.

 

[icefr8dawg]

For 135 ops, two units are required including a printer and a 6-month trial period. For 91 you do not require any approvals from the FSDO and I don't think you need two units. I have a King Air paperless under 91 and it only has one Class 3 EFB ("Tablet PC" EFBS are usually Class 2). It would be good practice to have 2 units onboard anyway.

STC for hardmount is NOT required. We operate a Lear 60 and Challenger 604 without STCs for hardmounts. You can use them as "loose equipment". We had to develop a procedure to use the EFBs this way under 135. I beleive FLOPS also uses the units this way. Maybe someone can confirm this.

I have a copy of AC120-76A in front of me and I'm not seeing where two units are required for 135 work. Where can such information be found? Or does it vary from fsdo to fsdo?

 

[mike1mc]

Should be in the AC. If not I'll have to pull out the JobAid and other docuements. I'll get an answer tomorrow.

 

[LegacyDriver]

We use the Fujitsu EFB. I really like it but there are new ones out there that have incredible graphics. I would go that route.

I have used two versions of JeppView. One is great and extremely intuitive the other is a nightmare clusterf***!!!!!!!

We have approval for hard wired EFB but are required to keep hard copies of all plates until we get an STC for a "permanent" mount.

I love the EFBs. Hated them at first but can't stand to be without them now. Even with the inferior graphics of the Fujitsu.

 

[G4G5]

http://www.jaa.nl/secured/Operations/Public%20Documents/JOEB/TGL-36.pdf

Governs JAA approval of EFB's.

My suggestion would be to sit down with your FSDO and ask exactly what they want. A few suggestions prior to contacting them:
1. Understand what Class and Type of EFB you have.
This can be determined by reading the , it's a lot of FAA rhetoric but it gives you a place to start. You need to have a basic knowledge because this is what your FSDO will be using.
Contact the salesman, odds are you are not the first to try the application in your type of aircraft. He should have answer of what type and class or he can point you in the direction of someone who he has sold it to in your area.
2. Contact the aircraft mfr or your avionics shop. If you are using a 337 form or if someone has an existing installation, have a copy of it with you when you go/talk to your FSDO. He will want to know where you are powering the EFB (which bus) from and how it is mounted (removable or permanent).
3. How you plan to implement the usage of the EFB. LOFT training, 6 months with paperback up, or anything that you want to come up with.

I sat down with my FSDO's avionics guy. He was great, he told me what I can do and how to do it. He told me that they don't have a definative program for part 91, that I was basicly on my own because of the type and class of EFB I was using. He suggested following the pt135 guidlines, so we used the two efb's with a paperback up for 6 months (we kept our jepps subscription for 6 months. Now we just print arrival and alternate plates.

I use a Fijitsu in a G5.

 

[Rokit88]

Save yourself a hassle and go to www.flightdeckresources.com I'm trying to get our 135 op to go paperless and this outfit is a all-in-one operation. They sell hardware and software. They also HELPED THE FAA WRITE the Advisory Circular concearning EFBs.


Rokit88

 

[G4G5]

I can't remember bit I think it was Diesel who turned me onto the Garmin GPS 10. If it was I need to say, "thanks".

I have a Fijitsu and I purchased the GPS 10 transmitter. I placed a Sprokit Blue Tooth card in the Fijitsu. What I now have is a poor mans G550, Plainview. I have been using the GPS10 for about 3-4 months now and have never had a problem with windshield heat or lost position. It makes the Flight deck features of Jepp View usable. I actually track my position from hanger to hanger. The 10-9 airport diagram feature is awesome.

The only problem I have encountered is the inability to get 3d information from the GPS10, I get 2d. Which works great for the map features but not for the altitude features. If anyone else is getting it to work please PM me.

 

[Spooky 1]

Anybody here have experience with the Canadian Marconi Type ll system that Gulfstream first introduced in the G1V, I believe?

 

[Diesel]

G4G5 i'm glad you liked the tip. I'm trying to get another G buddy of mine to try it out but he's reluctant. I'm glad it's working out well.

I absolutly love being able to track the plane on the map. To actually see it over the approach plate is a big plus too.

Plus it gives you something to do on long flights. By thw way how much time are you getting out of the battery?

Just read your post that you are having 3d issues. I believe this is a problem with the unit. I'd send it back if I were you. I've never had a 2d or 3d issue. It could be a windshield problem but i really doubt it.

How many satelites are you picking up?

 

[G4G5]

I am not sure about the satellites, I have never checked. We just did a couple of long legs, HPN-ANC-VHHH and I don't recall having any battery issues. We turned it off and gave it a boost some where along the way but it was really no big deal.
I need to work on the 3d issue. Initially during the set up I had difficulty with the GPS 10 because Jepps does not recognize it as a possible GPS unit (too new is my guess). So I had to go to the Garmin web site and up link some software. Are you using the Fijitsu with the GPS 10?

Are you using two EFB's? I called Garmin and they told me that I would need to purchase another GPS10 for my second EFB. I have not tried the second EFB. Currently we just have the one EFB working with the GPS.

I just ordered the Sockit Blue tooth card for the second EFB and hope to try it out next week. Which Bluetooth card are you using?