Overhead at Civilian Fields

[jetpig32]

I don't want to die from a 172 just as much as joe bag of donuts flying his cessna doesn't want to get hit by me.

Ummmm. Joey bag of donuts.. I go for a tripple lindy

 

[Huggyu2]

Not in New Rivers’ class D without permission. I don’t care what your stall speed is, you ask first or your take the walk of shame.

I might be wrong, but here's my rebuttal:
Yes, they may call me up and ask to speak with me, but by Part 91.117, paragraph d, that speed limit doesn't apply to the T-38. The FAA has stated that since the 300KIAS is listed in the T-38 flight manual, that's the speed at which we may operate.
Therefore, I don't think New Rivers' Base Ops / ATC would not have a leg to stand on.
"(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

Many of you folks are way smarter on this than I am. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Mud Eagle]

Not in New Rivers’ class D without permission. I don’t care what your stall speed is, you ask first or your take the walk of shame.

<yawn>

If only there were a DOD-wide LOA with the FAA that dealt with minimum airspeeds by DOD aircraft (fighters especially).

Oh wait...there is!

And it specifically references the chapter in my jet's flight manual where it says I come up initial at 300 knots.

I'd be happy to show that to whatever toolbag decided to make an issue of it.

Last time I checked, the "MCAS" at the front of the name of the airfield meant that DOD agreements were in effect.

 

[bagasticks]

when i was a hornet plane capatain at the MCAS's i dont think that any we visited including the one i was stationed at were concerned with airspeed. . .or atleast our pilots didnt give a poop. . . I wll say that unrestricted climbs and 4-bill breaks were the stuff that us enlisted maintainers lived for. . . .we used to sit out on the ramp after the jets called 10 min. out and judge breaks. we had a young captain that would plug in the burners in the break and he won regularly. . the best was what i recall to have been a "Pro-C" sortie which was a return to service flight after extensive mx. the jet would be clean and single ship. unrestriceted climb always, and always a good show coming up initial. . . . .nowadays i judge my own breaks based on the "Bank angle! Bank angle". . . . . . . .Tanker breaks not really breaks. . .more of just a slight bend. . .

 

[anotherF16pilot]

Puck,

Most can't see the difference between 300 and 350 kts. So fly what you want but next time ask for tac initial. 500' & 500 kts. Mil airfields only of course! Oh, and if you see a bird you might want to take it around (AB to be conservative)

 

[Future SNA]

disregard

 

[BiffF15]

Having been cross country as much as the next guy and having done the Demo gig (lots of smaller civilian fields) just refer to the first page in the Dash-1 of life (REGARDLESS OF THE RULES, USE COMMON SENSE IN ALL THAT FOLLOWS). If you are entering initial at ORD then go with what the controllers are requesting or allowing (probably a lack of GA in the pattern). If you are up initial at a 7000' strip near a large city with a small airshow then speed your discretion with eyes out and some sort of auto aqc helping you feel your way along.
And yes, don't look or sound like a dufus in the pattern. If you are requested to report the duty then do so (Boca Chica being numero uno). If you are told no fan breaks, then no fan breaks. If you are reporting high key then do better next time at UPT and get a two engined fighter.
Lets see how many folks actually read this stuff...

 

[NewmanF16]

Funny, the 2 engine fighters usually go to the weak swimmers...actually, I shouldn't throw the hog guys under the bus like that. It's the guys with the big craniums that need to fly Eagles so their egos can get in the cockpit with them.:beer:

 

[payola]

Not saying it makes them right, but New River is a helo/Osprey base with a C-12 or two in the mix. Maybe that's why they're so touchy about speed. Also, the AP 1 mentions "strict adherence" to course rules for noise abatement.

I was at New River for five years when I was enlisted. I don't remember seeing too many tactical jets (or jet trainers) stopping by, except during the air show. I don't think I ever saw a jet do a break until I moved to Miramar.

 

[bssthound]

Big Wave said

Look good walking to and from the jet...
Look good up initial...
Sound good on the radio...

Also, better dead than embarrassed . . . . .

 

[MiserDD]

I might be wrong, but here's my rebuttal:
Yes, they may call me up and ask to speak with me, but by Part 91.117, paragraph d, that speed limit doesn't apply to the T-38. The FAA has stated that since the 300KIAS is listed in the T-38 flight manual, that's the speed at which we may operate.
Therefore, I don't think New Rivers' Base Ops / ATC would not have a leg to stand on.
"(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

Many of you folks are way smarter on this than I am. Is there something I'm missing?

When operating in restricted airspace, which it is, you must comply with all restrictions.

 

[MiserDD]

<yawn>

If only there were a DOD-wide LOA with the FAA that dealt with minimum airspeeds by DOD aircraft (fighters especially).

Oh wait...there is!

And it specifically references the chapter in my jet's flight manual where it says I come up initial at 300 knots.

I'd be happy to show that to whatever toolbag decided to make an issue of it.

Last time I checked, the "MCAS" at the front of the name of the airfield meant that DOD agreements were in effect.

Do you require permission to enter restricted airspace? If you enter restricted airspace are you to comply with all restrictions? I believe the DOD instructions covering DOD restricted airspace say yes.

 

[MiserDD]

Having been cross country as much as the next guy and having done the Demo gig (lots of smaller civilian fields) just refer to the first page in the Dash-1 of life (REGARDLESS OF THE RULES, USE COMMON SENSE IN ALL THAT FOLLOWS). If you are entering initial at ORD then go with what the controllers are requesting or allowing (probably a lack of GA in the pattern). If you are up initial at a 7000' strip near a large city with a small airshow then speed your discretion with eyes out and some sort of auto aqc helping you feel your way along.
And yes, don't look or sound like a dufus in the pattern. If you are requested to report the duty then do so (Boca Chica being numero uno). If you are told no fan breaks, then no fan breaks. If you are reporting high key then do better next time at UPT and get a two engined fighter.
Lets see how many folks actually read this stuff...

I read it. Well said.

 

[Kuma]

This is so not worth worrying about

Huggy- MCAS New River has two 5000 foot runways. We might be able to go, but leaving would be a challenge.

Miser- New River is not inside a restricted area. It is simply a class D airspace. If I were to go there (which I won't because of the short runways) then I would go at 300 knots because slower than that is unsafe. This is not an issue about how fast I can go, it is an issue of what is the slowest safe speed...that is 300 knots on a clean T-38. Slower than that, generally, and the airplane will stall instead of turn. That is why it is authorized to go 300 knots below 10,000 feet.

It would not be a "walk of shame" because no rules are being violated. It would simply be an annoyance to have to go explain to the airfield manager that he is wrong.

 

[Lipper95]

puck 11,

long story short: if your jet has the waiver to the speed limits, then you can go however fast your manual (NATOPS, -1, etc) says is your slowest limit. i flew with a few t-45 guys at jax to the boat a few years back, and they all told me the jet did not have the 250 below 10 waiver. (as i was at about 350 kias approaching the coast, assuming that the t-45 was the same as the t-38.) maybe your jet has the waiver now, but technically if it does not, then you gotta play by the same rules as us slow guys. that being said, enjoy the rest of flight school. best year of your life!

 

[puck_11]

Thanks, I am enjoying it and loving it so far! True, the T-45 does not have a waiver, since our aircraft are designed to go nice and slow for the boat. I was originally under the impression that we didn't do breaks at civilian fields until i went on XC and the reserve IP needed to get some breaks in. That's where the question arose from, and it was more out of curiousity if anyone had been called out on it. The only other story I've heard is of the Hornet guy doing 500kts at 100' in the break!

puck 11,

long story short: if your jet has the waiver to the speed limits, then you can go however fast your manual (NATOPS, -1, etc) says is your slowest limit. i flew with a few t-45 guys at jax to the boat a few years back, and they all told me the jet did not have the 250 below 10 waiver. (as i was at about 350 kias approaching the coast, assuming that the t-45 was the same as the t-38.) maybe your jet has the waiver now, but technically if it does not, then you gotta play by the same rules as us slow guys. that being said, enjoy the rest of flight school. best year of your life!

 

[Scrapdog]

The only other story I've heard is of the Hornet guy doing 500kts at 100' in the break!

Sounds safe. Navy standard. What a clown...great way to get yourself killed. The rules are the rules for a reason - especially in a fighter. As the saying goes, most - if not all rules/reg's or TR's- were written in blood.

 

[Huggyu2]

As the saying goes, most - if not all rules/reg's or TR's- were written in blood.

That always reminds me of the canopy breaker tool from the T-38 and T-37. Remember the Warning in the Dash-1 about ensuring the blade is toward you? I wish I knew the pilot who ended up looking like a unicorn with that blade stuck in his skull.

 

[Future SNA]

Sounds safe. Navy standard. what a clown...great way to get yourself killed.

I dig your gay neckerchief.....now we're even.

 

[bagasticks]

my dad said back when he was in the navy (late 60's) dudes would do "5 bill breaks" all the time, especially on the boat (he flew intruders so pretty sure he wasn't invloved in these shenanigans).

I read a story in a book (fast movers, i think) about a crusader pilot doing just such a manuever and in the break at high speed he deployed the speed break (which on the mighty F8 happens to be the entire wing) and it seperated from the airplane. The fuselage swapped ends and landed like a cigar on the base softball fields. When CFR arrived the pilot was still sitting smugly in the cockpit and they thought he was fine until they opened it up and realized that his spine was reduced to a gelatinous paste and he had been killed instantly but for whatever reason was still just sitting there all strapped in.