Overhead at Civilian Fields

[puck_11]

I did a cross country the other weekend into a couple civilian fields. After a few approaches we came back for the overhead at 350 for a full stop. Both were class D airports. I asked my IP about it, and he said the airspeed restriction has never been an issue, and added that no self respecting fighter guy would break below 350 haha. Just curious if most civilian towers are cool with this, or if anyone has ever been burned by this.

Thanks!

 

[Scrapdog]

I did a cross country the other weekend into a couple civilian fields. After a few approaches we came back for the overhead at 350 for a full stop. Both were class D airports. I asked my IP about it, and he said the airspeed restriction has never been an issue, and added that no self respecting fighter guy would break below 350 haha. Just curious if most civilian towers are cool with this, or if anyone has ever been burned by this.

Thanks!

No controllers really care. I think the standard is 300 to 350 knots up initial. If they give you clearance for an overhead then obviously they're OK with you doing an overhead. If they don't, then don't. I've been x country numerous times to different civilian airfields. I've always asked for initial (wx dependent of course) and about half the time they give it to you depending on their workload. You certainly won't "get burned" by asking. If you come up initial at 500 knots, you'll probably get a phone call.

 

[puck_11]

Thanks for the info. I was guessing that controllers that typically don't get military aircraft at their field enjoy the show as long as you don't get carried away.

 

[Kaman]

Heck...I've done it a few times in a Beech 1900 into uncontrolled fields! Perfectly acceptable pattern entry in the AIM, but obviously we have to obey the 200 knot (recommended) for Class "E" airspace.

 

[Deuce130]

Make sure you tell your IP you double checked him on an internet message board. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of it!

 

[Huggyu2]

After a few approaches we came back for the overhead at 350 for a full stop. Both were class D airports. I asked my IP about it, and he said the airspeed restriction has never been an issue, and added that no self respecting fighter guy would break below 350 haha. Just curious if most civilian towers are cool with this, or if anyone has ever been burned by this.

Thanks!

What airspeed does your NATOPS manual allow you to fly at below 10,000'? What speed do you fly in the radar pattern? If the answer is less than 350, technically, that could be an issue. However, if your manual describes the overhead and shows initial at 350, then that's a point in your favor.
The T-38 is allowed to fly 300 KIAS below 10K, and that's our initial airspeed.
Bottom line: as stated, tower probably doesn't care if you don't push much beyond 350. Unless you hit someone.

 

[Caveman]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Joe Sixpack cruising around in his 172 and judiciously avoiding the MTRs is not expecting or looking for a fast mover doing 400mph over the ground. That guy will routinely skirt the edge of the Class D and because he has no radio doesn't even know you are in the neighborhood.

Look, I have no problem with the mil dudes doing what they have to to stay mission ready, but is it really necessary to come screaming into an airport where there usually isn't any military traffic at really high speeds just because you can? Go ahead and do your 'training' x/c to LAS for the weekend. I get it and don't have a problem with it. Just slow it down when you are with slower traffic in the area. A lot of GA pilots avoid the MTRs because they know that's your turf. How about giving them the same courtesy in their turf?

 

[Scrapdog]

Thanks for the info. I was guessing that controllers that typically don't get military aircraft at their field enjoy the show as long as you don't get carried away.

No one cares about how you look in the pattern. You quickly learn that after UPT.

 

[Scrapdog]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Joe Sixpack cruising around in his 172 and judiciously avoiding the MTRs is not expecting or looking for a fast mover doing 400mph over the ground. That guy will routinely skirt the edge of the Class D and because he has no radio doesn't even know you are in the neighborhood.

Look, I have no problem with the mil dudes doing what they have to to stay mission ready, but is it really necessary to come screaming into an airport where there usually isn't any military traffic at really high speeds just because you can? Go ahead and do your 'training' x/c to LAS for the weekend. I get it and don't have a problem with it. Just slow it down when you are with slower traffic in the area. A lot of GA pilots avoid the MTRs because they know that's your turf. How about giving them the same courtesy in their turf?

Woah...throttle back! The reason fighter type A/C come up initial at "relatively" high speeds is because that's the speed published in our flight manuals. There's a reason for that - i.e. that's what the manufactuer reccomends. Fighter pilots don't give a rat's ass about pattern flying and we certainly don't skirt class D airspace at 500 knots and 500 feet because we can. On a low level...of course, by Tulsa international...are you kidding? I don't want to die from a 172 just as much as joe bag of donuts flying his cessna doesn't want to get hit by me. You will find 300 to 350 knots is pretty standard for every fighter in the book below 10K.

As far as Joe Sixpack "judiciously avoiding the MTR's" is absolute BS. There have been numerous occasions where I've had to stop my entire 4 vs 6 DCA fight (which I've usually mission planned the entire day prior) because some clown came into our MOA deciding it was a nice shortcut and could save 3 gallons of 100 LL while we just wasted $100,000 of taxpayers money in training costs.

 

[puck_11]

Make sure you tell your IP you double checked him on an internet message board. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of it!

I'll keep that in mind He didn't seem very convincing as we were debriefing over a couple of beers at the bar, he just said that its never been an issue for him.

Caveman,

I understand your concerns. I agree its probably a big safety issue on a busy saturday with perfect wx, or at uncontrolled fields. We did it on a weekday, with weather that most civ pilots aren't flying in. We just exited the pattern, staying in Class D the entire time, talking with tower the entire time and accelerated to our break speed. Its not like we came in a low level buzzing through and making people get out of our way.

And besides, coming screaming into an airport doing a break, who doesn't find that motivating! When I was on the ground hoping like hell I could get the opportunity to fly for our military, I would have loved to see that!

 

[Caveman]

And besides, coming screaming into an airport doing a break, who doesn't find that motivating! When I was on the ground hoping like hell I could get the opportunity to fly for our military, I would have loved to see that!

I definitely agree with that.

 

[Caveman]

Woah...throttle back! The reason fighter type A/C come up initial at "relatively" high speeds is because that's the speed published in our flight manuals. There's a reason for that - i.e. that's what the manufactuer reccomends. Fighter pilots don't give a rat's ass about pattern flying and we certainly don't skirt class D airspace at 500 knots and 500 feet because we can. On a low level...of course, by Tulsa international...are you kidding? I don't want to die from a 172 just as much as joe bag of donuts flying his cessna doesn't want to get hit by me. You will find 300 to 350 knots is pretty standard for every fighter in the book below 10K.

As far as Joe Sixpack "judiciously avoiding the MTR's" is absolute BS. There have been numerous occasions where I've had to stop my entire 4 vs 6 DCA fight (which I've usually mission planned the entire day prior) because some clown came into our MOA deciding it was a nice shortcut and could save 3 gallons of 100 LL while we just wasted $100,000 of taxpayers money in training costs.

Easy killer. I didn't say there wasn't a good reason for what speeds you guys fly. I said sometimes it's prudent to slow it down.

You're right. Some GA pilots wouldn't know a MTR from a Big Mac, but most do and most avoid them for obvious reasons. It only takes one though to gum up the works.

 

[MiserDD]

I did a cross country the other weekend into a couple civilian fields. After a few approaches we came back for the overhead at 350 for a full stop. Both were class D airports. I asked my IP about it, and he said the airspeed restriction has never been an issue, and added that no self respecting fighter guy would break below 350 haha. Just curious if most civilian towers are cool with this, or if anyone has ever been burned by this.

Thanks!

Class D is 200 kts. If you come into MCAS New River at greater than 250 you will have to stop by the Airfield Ops office prior to departure.

 

[Huggyu2]

If you come into MCAS New River at greater than 250 you will have to stop by the Airfield Ops office prior to departure.

Not if I'm in a T-38. It's totally legal to be at 300KIAS.

 

[Big Wave]

No one cares about how you look in the pattern. You quickly learn that after UPT.

Wow--you must be in a different AF than the one I was in...

Look good walking to and from the jet...
Look good up initial...
Sound good on the radio...

Right Huggy?

 

[Scrapdog]

Wow--you must be in a different AF than the one I was in...

Look good walking to and from the jet...
Look good up initial...
Sound good on the radio...

Right Huggy?

I didn't say don't look good up initial. That is a professionalism/pride thing we all do because we're military pilots. And you never loose your cool on the radio.

However - thinking a civilian controller gets his rocks off because you come up initial at 300 knots...I don't think so.

I guess Huggy is now the officianado on pattern ops? I'll ask him then myself...Right Huggy?

 

[Huggyu2]

I guess Huggy is now the officianado on pattern ops? I'll ask him then myself...Right Huggy?

Amen.

We would have voted for you, Scrappy, but we didn't know the phone number for the inside of the vault. Do you sleep in there too??

 

[Future SNA]

I know 300-350 below 10K seems to be pretty standard, since in addition to saying "2"....my only other job on leads wing is to critique non-verbally the stuff he does that I think is wrong.

On the other side. Single-ship, I always obide by the 250 below 10K. I know ample guys that have been called out on it over the radio, all civilians, and none of what they experienced do I want to ever be a part of.

350 in the break. Damn straight, but I'm not accelerating 15 miles out needlessly, I typically wait till I call initial, then accelerate, seems more prudent.

I think you'll find the guys that follow the rules have less heartache and more respect in the end.

 

[Scrapdog]

Amen.

We would have voted for you, Scrappy, but we didn't know the phone number for the inside of the vault. Do you sleep in there too??

DSN or commercial? No, they removed my cot last week!

 

[MiserDD]

Not if I'm in a T-38. It's totally legal to be at 300KIAS.

Not in New Rivers’ class D without permission. I don’t care what your stall speed is, you ask first or your take the walk of shame.