Our "Team" leader out to lunch

[doh]

Skanza, did your negotiators survey the pilot group before they started negotiations? If they did not, then meeting with management seperately is a good idea. If however, they did survey the pilot group prior to negotiations (and I strongly suspect they did), then meeting with management seperate from negotiations is the worst idea! Your negotiating team has access to propriatary information that they may not legally divulge to you. Management has made them sign a legally binding agreement not to divulge this information. Discussing your contract without that information puts you and the pilot group as a whole at a severe disadvantage. Management will only exploit your lack of knowledge. Management is well aware of what your group expects. Your negotiating team has made your expectations crystal clear. What this manager is attempting to do is cause a rift between pilots. He is hoping to cause chaos so that the pilots as a group will lose faith in their representatives. If that happens, the pilot group is much more likely to ratify a substandard pwa (pilot working agreement) because they no longer trust their negotiating team to produce an acceptable result. Like I said, a very bad idea to meet outside of negotiations. By the way, I'm not a huge fan of unions myself. But once you have one, don't be obstructionist. After all, the majority has ruled.

 

[sky4]

Dfw

I think everyone at FLOPS knows Jody's position at this company as a ground inst. for FLOPS at Simuflt and a line pilot. I for one know Jody backs the union 100% and wants nothing but the best for us, so lets give her a little slack on this, I bet she had her hands tied. The other one or two I can not speak for.

BTW, There was no reason to post names here, we don't need to turn anyone away.

Sky

 

[dime line]

I think everyone at FLOPS knows Jody's position at this company as a ground inst. for FLOPS at Simuflt and a line pilot. I for one know

Jody backs the union 100%

and wants nothing but the best for us, so lets give her a little slack on this, I bet she had her hands tied. The other one or two I can not speak for.

BTW, There was no reason to post names here, we don't need to turn anyone away.

Sky

Your kidding right?

 

[Hobbes]

CG's attendance could have just been a faux pas...

Oh, I just couldn't resist that.

 

[jetwash]

I do know that the other pilot TP attends the meetings in DAL all the time. Even thought he is signed up on the union board his heart is not into it. He still works OT. As a matter of fact he was exposed on this site a few months ago when someone posted the names and then got bent out of shape.

He has probably only a year or two until he retires and could care less for the other pilots who will be here after he goes. So I could care less if his feelings are hurt because everyone know what type of person he is.

 

[nomore]

Message from Nomore

I was going to let everyone know who CG was since I didn't mention it in my earlier post but then I thought shoot everyone knows it's Carlos. So I changed my mind.



N

 

[1folinepilot]

The sad truth is that Michael flew back to CGF to brag and gloat to his underlings and his new bosses at HIG that his meeting in Dallas was an overwhelming success. It seems that all that attended gave him a 100% approval rating, supported his go-forward plan and see him as a true visionary to continue to lead Options into the future!

Think about it! How is it any different than any other "metric" that he reports?

THE IBT1108 SPEAKS FOR ME!

 

[flydog1]

I think everyone at FLOPS knows Jody's position at this company as a ground inst. for FLOPS at Simuflt and a line pilot. I for one know Jody backs the union 100% and wants nothing but the best for us, so lets give her a little slack on this, I bet she had her hands tied. The other one or two I can not speak for.

BTW, There was no reason to post names here, we don't need to turn anyone away.

Sky

I would have to agree Sky on this one and no need to post names..I was going to say something but glad someone else spoke up before I got to this thread. I know first had that if I had to go to the aiport and pick MS up to goto the homewood suites, I would feel pretty obligated to going to the meeting. Especially if you had to take him back! Even though I'm sure His info is nothing new we need to hear.
Its great to hear that everyone was in the lobby during his meeting But we all have a job to do....our job? To get the industry standard contract that we deserve.

 

[Helmsalee]

Maybe if the union gets a decent contract here, this may be the next Netjets. And those who are in the pipeline will be glad they got in ahead of the rush. A few years ago NJ was not considered a great place to be, but things have changed.

 

[Whoosh!]

Maybe if the union gets a decent contract here, this may be the next Netjets. And those who are in the pipeline will be glad they got in ahead of the rush. A few years ago NJ was not considered a great place to be, but things have changed.

Forgive me but, this seems kind of nieve. FLOPS is so far behind the rest of the industry it's stupid. Four fractional companies are out there- FLOPS only has 12% of the market now, hasn't made any effort to keep up with pilot compensation in the rest of the industry, continues to lose pilots at an alarming rate, etc. A pilot contract would help but the culture created by the arrogant/egotistical/unethical management is really the problem. The dynamic at NetJets was pretty different during their struggle- different ownership, financial situation, market conditions, etc. NetJets made in excess of $300M last year. Raytheon pretty much gave FLOPS to HIG for pennies. Would probably take a miracle at this point to turn Options around.

Unfortunately, most of the hope amongst the pilot group that things will get better roots back to days when we were growing, buying airplanes, hiring like crazy, had the best pay in the industry, etc.- glamour. It's slowly but steadily come down from there and gotten worse while the other companies have continued to grow. Hard for most of us to believe this happened (which has led to much of the mistrust of what mgmt says) but if you told any one of us 6 years ago that this is what the company would have looked like now, we would have certainly bailed. It's hard to accept the loss after all this time and it's happened slowly so most guys just continue to hang on hoping....

 

[B19 Flyer]

Hard for most of us to believe this happened (which has led to much of the mistrust of what mgmt says) but if you told any one of us 6 years ago that this is what the company would have looked like now, we would have certainly bailed. It's hard to accept the loss after all this time and it's happened slowly so most guys just continue to hang on hoping....

It's only a coincidence that the union began organizing 6 years ago.

 

[Whoosh!]

That's a pretty pathetic response Bob. They got to be paying you better than that.

 

[AeroBoy]

It's only a coincidence that the union began organizing 6 years ago.

The union was being organized at Raytheon Travel Air before the merger with Flight Options. Ricci promised the RTA pilots that he would walk on water for them and defeated the union drive. Ricci had a hard time upholding his promises because pilot integration was tougher than he expected, and the merger mess led to his untimely departure. Then Raytheon started installing stupid CEOs who knew nothing about fractionals and degraded pilot pay and benefits, causing the union drive to gain momentum. But of course it's the pilot/union's fault that the company is going downhill, right Bob/B19?

 

[TurboHonda]

The union was being organized at Raytheon Travel Air before the merger with Flight Options. Ricci promised the RTA pilots that he would walk on water for them and defeated the union drive. Ricci had a hard time upholding his promises because pilot integration was tougher than he expected, and the merger mess led to his untimely departure. Then Raytheon started installing stupid CEOs who knew nothing about fractionals and degraded pilot pay and benefits, causing the union drive to gain momentum. But of course it's the pilot/union's fault that the company is going downhill, right Bob/B19?

It was more than just a drive. It actually was in the voting stage. The vote was a narrow defeat for the union, because of the charismatic Mr. Ricci. Had the vote gone the other way, it is doubtful that the merger would have happened at all.

One can only guess where the two company's would be today. One thing's for sure: B19 would not exist.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Another moron team leader

Well we had another moron "team" leader try and hold an impromptu management propaganda meeting in DFW this week and the response was another embarrassment to them.

Timmy Montie dropped in on the 135 recurrent class just before lunch break to answer questions if anyone had any. No one in the class stayed to see what Montie had to say, not a single pilot. :beer:

I think management may finally be getting the word that this pilot group does not give a crap about the BS management feeds the rest of the company. like the old saying says you know when management is lying when their lips are moving.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well we had another moron "team" leader try and hold an impromptu management propaganda meeting in DFW this week and the response was another embarrassment to them.

Timmy Montie dropped in on the 135 recurrent class just before lunch break to answer questions if anyone had any. No one in the class stayed to see what Montie had to say, not a single pilot. :beer:

I think management may finally be getting the word that this pilot group does not give a crap about the BS management feeds the rest of the company. like the old saying says you know when management is lying when their lips are moving.

ROFL!!

:laugh: :laugh:

Wow, are you inexperienced in these things, aren't you?

You know and understand that they don't expect pilots at these meetings, right? Internally and privately, these things are a joke, but are a necessary evil while the union is playing their games.

Not showing up is not a stand of defiance, it is expected and the union leadership knows what is going to happen. The union leadership will make the membership THINK that they are making a stand to rile the troops up. They make it into a big deal, because it gets a reaction from the union mob.

"We showed them!" the union membership is saying, but in reality the company management knew well in advance it would be a short night, but if the meetings aren't held it will appear as though the company didn't care.

The company does care, but they also know that it's out of their hands. When it goes to mediation, the company will be able to say, "Well, we tried but nobody showed up. It's not our fault they didn't get the message. 1108 suggested a boycott."

It's not a stand of defiance, a stand of defiance would be to have an overwhelming attendance. You folks are blinded by the union light! (you need sunglasses!)

 

[skyismyoffice]

OK Bob, if management is so damn smart and really one step ahead of the game all the time as you suggest...Why wouldn't you want to just get this thing done?

Do you really think prolonging things will lead to decertification?

Was it just a fluke that after Net Jets settled their contract and the Union and the company started to work together, the company flourished?

Or maybe you don't want the company to flourish?

Please, send me your wisdom...Why are you standing by watching the company go down the toilet? Or don't you see it?

 

[Whoosh!]

B19, it's pretty obvious you get compensated in some way to be on this board with the goal of breaking up solidarity. You seem to write well (albeit the crap you post is false and/or extremely biased) and I doubt someone truly as stupid as you're trying to make yourself appear could do that.

But, do you really think you're going to make a difference? You can't/won't even prove your credibility. You hide or play games when asked direct questions about you're background. You chime in on specific events that occur at FLOPS with "facts", yet claim you have no affiliation with the company.

Seems like your posts are getting more frequent and agressive lately... are you starting to feel the heat/pressure from the bosses to accomplish your task? Any coincidence to the increasing desperateness of FLOPS management and worsening health of the company?

Should we expect a straight answer or more obscure bullsh1t commentary?

 

[nomore]

I can answer that!

Should we expect a straight answer or more obscure bullsh1t commentary?

Whoosh let me answer for "Not Bob" B-19.

YES!



N

 

[Voice Of Reason]

"We showed them!" the union membership is saying, but in reality the company management knew well in advance it would be a short night, but if the meetings aren't held it will appear as though the company didn't care.

...so WHICH side is "playing games", Bob?
When this is all said and done, though, the company you are now dedicating your entire life toward helping, is going to send YOU to the unemployment line, NOT 500 or so pilots. Gnaw on that one. I'll be here laughing as security escorts you out. YOU've done more to hurt FLOPS than ANYONE, and it gets more expensive the more they blindly let you run the show from behind the scenes. Reality will occur to even upper mgt idiots soon enough. You aren't worth all THAT.

 

[GerryG]

Carma

So this clown boy, B19 wants us to believe management has it all planned out? I wonder, considering MS is advised by a team of lawyers and advisers, if he wanted to draw the union into a unfavorable position, why would they send the main man down for a humiliating rebuke from the pilot group? Why wouldn't they send one of his lackeys instead, if what B19 suggests is true?

I think the answer stems from MS's personal arrogance. He thought he was going to show the union and he probably ignored the advice of his advisors. It didn't work out for him and he ended up with egg on his face.

Hubris is not that complicated, as it is always stems from arrogance. Carma rules here at Flight Options.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I think the answer stems from MS's personal arrogance. He thought he was going to show the union and he probably ignored the advice of his advisors. It didn't work out for him and he ended up with egg on his face.

Hubris is not that complicated, as it is always stems from arrogance. Carma rules here at Flight Options.

B-19 and his F & Harrison counterparts have only the worst karma has to offer.

Those of us determined to stay until the end and love our jobs again will have the last laugh when the real execs in charge (HIG) see what the egos of the past regime have cost this company in lost revenue, employee morale, and "owners" who can't get out fast enough.

F&H are even going after the majors and have people stationed all over, so we will be ending up with more of the same if we go elsewhere. We need to bring this company back to the morale of the early days, but adding the pay and contract that was lacking.

It is a lot cheaper for HIG to mirror the setup at netjets than let the company totally fold and keep paying morons to lead it there.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B-19 and his F & Harrison counterparts have only the worst karma has to offer.

Those of us determined to stay until the end and love our jobs again will have the last laugh (Just like all the Eastern guys did)when the real execs in charge (HIG) see what the egos of the past regime have cost this company in lost revenue, employee morale, and "owners" who can't get out fast enough.

When owners begin to bail, the difference will be union intervention. They can get the same or better service by one of the other non-union fractionals without the fear of union involvement.

F&H are even going after the majors and have people stationed all over, so we will be ending up with more of the same if we go elsewhere. We need to bring this company back to the morale of the early days,

Get rid of the union and the morale will return almost overnight. The poor morale is being created by the union mob, not the non-union rank and file employees.

but adding the pay and contract that was lacking.

It is a lot cheaper for HIG to mirror the setup at netjets than let the company totally fold and keep paying morons to lead it there.

You mean paying unions to lead it there?

http://airlinesafety.com/Unions/UnionVictoryAtEastern.htm

To quote the cartoon, "We sure stuck it to Lorenzo, huh?" As they are standing in the unemployment line.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So this clown boy, B19 wants us to believe management has it all planned out? I wonder, considering MS is advised by a team of lawyers and advisers, if he wanted to draw the union into a unfavorable position, why would they send the main man down for a humiliating rebuke from the pilot group? Why wouldn't they send one of his lackeys instead, if what B19 suggests is true?

I think the answer stems from MS's personal arrogance. He thought he was going to show the union and he probably ignored the advice of his advisors. It didn't work out for him and he ended up with egg on his face.

Hubris is not that complicated, as it is always stems from arrogance. Carma rules here at Flight Options.

You really don't understand the road shows, do you? Road shows are part of negotiations and posturing. There are NO managers that ever expect pilots to show up and listen. It's a necessary evil.

An empty room is not a stand of defiance. An unexpected stand of defiance is when the room is full and real questions are asked. I've never seen it, because union leadership supports the boycott. For one, they support the boycott because it artificially "rally's the troops". But, on the other hand, if management tells the truth about what is happening with negotiations, it makes the union look stupid.

You really don't know what happens in negotiations, do you? You don't understand about the "15 minute" union caucus that lasts for 5 hours about 3 words in a paragraph. Company negotiators don't use that tactic. The union does. Just another of the unknown items the rank and file union members never hear about.

 

[nomore]

I didn't delete enough

Should we expect more obscure bullsh1t commentary?

I forgot to delete one part of your question Whoosh so let me restate.

Whoosh let me answer for "Not Bob" B-19.

YES!



N

 

[realityman]

Folks, no worries, you ARE doing the right thing. SILENCE will be the only thing they understand.

When you ask questions, you're giving management the go-ahead to speak to you basically one-on-one. This effectively undermines the position of your negotiators, who are the people management SHOULD be speaking to about any issues. The only people that NEED to know management's position on any issue are your negotiators.

Also, by asking questions, you may be inadvertently giving the company information about what you'll accept. That won't put your negotiators in a very good position either. At this point, your negotiators should already know what the pilot group, as a whole, will accept. Let THEM work it out with management.

And finally, much information that is presented by management at these roadshows are either flat out lies, or the truth twisted into a pretzel to suit their needs to manipulate you. Anyone remember the info Netjets' management tried getting us to swallow at our company's roadshows? Rmemeber the comments like "there's simply no more money" and "if you get what you're asking for you'll bankrupt the company"? I wonder how much truth they were presenting to us when almost literally overnight, after the 2005 contract was signed, we were in record profit territory. How could we have gone from "company going bankrupt with this contract" to record profits in a mere matter of several months? And less than two years later the company comes back and is offering MORE money to us. So you decide, were they being honest with us during the road shows?

Roadshows and question-and-answer sessions are nothing more than management fishing expeditions to try and get info from the pilot group that you shouldn't be giving away. You voted in the union. You elected leaders. You have a negotiating team. Those are the ONLY folks FLOPS management should be, or need to be, talking to at this point.

Good luck all of you!!

 

[dash_trash]

You really don't know what happens in negotiations, do you? You don't understand about the "15 minute" union caucus that lasts for 5 hours about 3 words in a paragraph. Company negotiators don't use that tactic. The union does. Just another of the unknown items the rank and file union members never hear about.

That sounds exactly like the tactics mgmt has been using since day one of negotiations. The 1108 has been very diligent in turning around their counters, and the company is the one who will return 3 or 4 lines in response to a multi-page proposal after taking several hours to "craft the language." Check your facts ... it is DEFINATELY mgmt that is dragging along the process.

 

[400pilot]

Not to mention, there is zero fruit in the union prolonging negotiations. If you want to talk dollars, it benefits "the union" to get a contract as fast as possible.

 

[imacdog]

Whatever they're paying B19, it's way too much.

 

[WabiSabi]

Get rid of the union and the morale will return almost overnight. The poor morale is being created by the union mob, not the non-union rank and file employees.

This is abject nonsense. 67% of the pilots voted in the union because morale was at an all time low. It was management's lies and systematic intimidation that lowered morale. The union is the pilot group's only hope to get pay, bennies, QOL, SAFETY, etc. to industry standards as well as a contract that holds an inept management accountable. Only this will raise morale. Again, you know nothing of what is going on @ FLOPS. You simply talk out of your ass and whenever you're asked to address a point regarding your claims about FLOPS, you tuck your tail between your legs and post inapplicable inks.

When owners begin to bail, the difference will be union intervention. They can get the same or better service by one of the other non-union fractionals without the fear of union involvement.

http://airlinesafety.com/Unions/UnionVictoryAtEastern.htm

To quote the cartoon, "We sure stuck it to Lorenzo, huh?" As they are standing in the unemployment line.

With every post of yours, you dig yourself deeper in your cesspool of formulaic anti union drivel. You don't know squat about Fracs not to mention FLOPS, jackass.