Ornstein letter to UA VP of Operations- Mesa guys seen this?

[A-V-8]

One more thing. In a Pilots only section of the Mesahub someone has posted the tail numbers headed for China. They came from the company internal website. I don't know if they (the company) intended for that to become public but it did. There are 42 tail #s in all. Most are from the UAL group. They are all CRJ 200s

 

[ualdriver]

The letter is legit as far as I know. Supposedly it was distributed internally at Mesa but wasn't "private, company only info" for UA or Mesa.

So is it true as Johnnie O. says? It's so bad on the UA side and so good on the "non UA side" that guys are mostly leaving on the UA side? Or is it bad all around and he's just using that as an excuse?

 

[MusicMan]

In speaking with departing crewmembers we repeatedly hear that the driving factor behind the decision to leave is schedule disruption, corresponding loss of pay and quality of life.

Seems simple. Pay your people full cancellation pay and they won't be leaving due to loss of pay or quality of life. AWAC flew out of there for years with CORA and at a minimum, we made more money when we were cancelled. Nobody left because they couldn't pay their rent at the end of the month due to all the cancelled legs. Fix the contract and people won't leave you dumb @ss!!!

 

[ATRCA]

I think JO is right here. I think he is on to something and while I'm no fan of him or his company he is right.

Flame away.

 

[mckpickle]

I find it funny he blames pilot attrition on UAL instead of placing the blame where it lies. The POS contract that his pilots work under. That contract is clearly his fault.

Example, he says pilots don't like the disruption and the LOSS IN PAY. We DUH, pay your pilots for cancelations outside the pilots control.

Don't schedule your duty days to be as long. At XJT we don't schedule line pilots for any more than a 12.5 hour duty day. That gives you 3 hours of delays before you time out (15.5 duty contractualy).

Allow your pilots more days off and scheduling control. Trip trading, 12 days off min, etc. At XJT the UNION, yes the UNION builds the lines. A hard faught and negotiated bennefit. The provissions that we adhere to are things like 2 days off in 7. Max 28.5 in 30. Max 95 hour lines. Max 88 hour line average. Trip mix etc etc etc.

People always say, "don't blame the pilot group" when some bottom feeder gets new flying. It's not the pilots fault, management makes the decissions. THIS IS WHY MANAGEMENT CAN MAKE THOSE DEALS PEOPLE!!!!! This is how not standing up for yourself and your profession hurt pilots at other airlines. When you allow this type of flying you allow your company to undercut the competition. It's not in the pay rates. We all make pretty close to the same $/hr amount. It's the scheduling section of the contract that cost the most money.

 

[WalterSobchak]

JO sucks. However, as much as it pains me to say this, he's dead on here (except that whole, "blaming pilot attrition on UAL" thing).

UAL royally screws their Express carriers in the way they handle the operation from the top down to below wing...then blames the Express carrier when, in most cases, they are just operating within the parameters given to them by UAL.

I sometimes think UAL deliberately sabotages their Express carriers to avoid paying out any bonuses for attaining what should be pretty easy contract goals. If that's the case, it seems they forget who's paint is on the plane.

Mesa sucks...always will with JO at the helm...but not all of their performance shortfalls in the UAL system can be attributed to them alone.

 

[eaglefly]

United dug its own hole hiring the cheapest feed. How many regional carriers go into ORD alone?

American Eagle.

 

[XPOO]

Well to compare "apples to apples" again, SkyWest operates within the same conditions at ORD, and still has the bulk of the UAX flying, as well as the best on-time arrival and customer satisfaction of any of the UAX carriers. Mesa is consistently at the bottom of every goal chart. is UAX singling out MESA? I don't think so. I know it's an old 90's term, but consider JO this era's Spin Doctor.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

so the release of this memo pretty much blew company credibility out the window.

Riiiiiiight... It was the memo that blew their credibility out the window.

 

[FADEC]

Interesting. As much of a sucka that is JO, he really does understand his position. He's just going out of his way to make a point: United- fix your crap or you will lose more feed from us. He's got the leverage because the regional pilot market is pretty much tapped. It's not like TSA, Skywest, or CHQ can pick up any more flying. I'd bet he gets his way and when Mesa attrition slows (even though it probably is still a staggering number) he'll be rewarded with more flying, because he spoke up first.

Sorry I completely disagree with your assertion. I am ex ACA and when the whole Bain consulting shakeup was occurring in the UAX system many of us, including myself thought that we were too big and important to be replaced by United. Well, ACA and Air Willy are history as far as United is concerned. Mesa's feed could be replaced relatively quickly by numerous regionals such as express jet or pinnacle. Don't kid yourself no regional, not even skywest, is protected or secure.

 

[Avi8tor2000]

I was in ORD last week. We took the acft from another crew and tried to make our turn time. The deplaning pax had to wait an unfairly long amount of time for a UAL ramper to unload their gate checks. I was going to be a nice guy and help him unload, but he rudely pushed me away and said " don't touch those bags!" I said "people are waiting and I'm going to help get their stuff to them". Again "You can't touch those bags!-It's in our contract that only Ual agents handle these!"

WTF?so much for customer service. Waited 30 minutes for a contract "window cleaner" to come clean my windshields. F#$% ORD and UAL man - what a goat rope. ORD will henceforth be on my bid avoid PBS option.

Does this honestly suprise you? If we have a work slowdown to prove a point do you want someone to do your job and undermine your efforts? Its the same with them. I realize our jobs are apples and oranges with theirs but everyobody in this industry has a job to do and many jobs not to do.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I was in ORD last week. We took the acft from another crew and tried to make our turn time. The deplaning pax had to wait an unfairly long amount of time for a UAL ramper to unload their gate checks. I was going to be a nice guy and help him unload, but he rudely pushed me away and said " don't touch those bags!" I said "people are waiting and I'm going to help get their stuff to them". Again "You can't touch those bags!-It's in our contract that only Ual agents handle these!"

WTF?so much for customer service. Waited 30 minutes for a contract "window cleaner" to come clean my windshields. F#$% ORD and UAL man - what a goat rope. ORD will henceforth be on my bid avoid PBS option.

I bet you would like to not only fly the plane but do "D" checks on your overnight. You are the problem in the industry, you were hired to fly the plane not service it, are you checked out/trained on belt loader operation? Didn't think so, "unfairly long amount of time" according to who you, gear monkey still on 1st year pay? Not even a full voting member of the union, who wants to take a ramper position and combine it with his F/O duties. The airline industry has been running longer than you have been alive, but you thionk you have a better way of doing things. You wanna be a ramper, apply, get trained, work out some, and get-er-done, till then, just sit there and do as you are told.
Get a clue, your 8 months of airline service does not make you an expert.
PBR

 

[Poahi]

Looks like UAL out smarted Mesa. We're screwing you fair and square. That's why Mesa pays bonuses for United experience.

Northwest used to screw the regionals when the flow rates in to DTW and MSP were limited due to weather. The difference was that the regionals didn't have to pay for the cancellations. It's better to lose a bunch of 50 seat flights than have thousands miss connections (especially overseas ones).

If true, this is actually good news for the regionals. Maybe this will put upward pressure on bidding for regional feed.

BTW, the 'attrition' card is a veiled threat for more cancellations. If he knows he can't make money on the UAL contract, at least he can run the stats in to the ground.

Remember: "You can't rape the willing."

 

[ex j-41]

I bet you would like to not only fly the plane but do "D" checks on your overnight. You are the problem in the industry, you were hired to fly the plane not service it, are you checked out/trained on belt loader operation? Didn't think so, "unfairly long amount of time" according to who you, gear monkey still on 1st year pay? Not even a full voting member of the union, who wants to take a ramper position and combine it with his F/O duties. The airline industry has been running longer than you have been alive, but you thionk you have a better way of doing things. You wanna be a ramper, apply, get trained, work out some, and get-er-done, till then, just sit there and do as you are told.
Get a clue, your 8 months of airline service does not make you an expert.
PBR

Can you imagine if the ramper came up the stairs and started helping the pilots with their job.....to get the airplane out on time....I can see it now...some ramper plugging numbers in the FMS....Like any F/O wouldn't have a problem with that!

 

[flyby]

The letter is legit as far as I know. Supposedly it was distributed internally at Mesa but wasn't "private, company only info" for UA or Mesa.

So is it true as Johnnie O. says? It's so bad on the UA side and so good on the "non UA side" that guys are mostly leaving on the UA side? Or is it bad all around and he's just using that as an excuse?

I agree with your assertion. I can't believe there is more pilot attrition on the UA side because they're getting re-assigned more than the DL or US operation. In the end we are all back-stopped by the regulations. JO happily pushes every MESA pilot to the limit of the law.

This fantasy claim that the UA operation somehow puts more pressure on his pilots is what discredits him as a lying manipulative pig.