Options Pilots About To Draw A Line In The Sand!!!

[T-1GUY]

Nevermind Again.....

 

[hogbody]

Mystery solved -- FedMagnet is D'Wayne

D'Wayne: Aren't you the one who told your program manager that everyone you flew with was stupid? Really? Out of the hundreds of type rated ATP's you must have flown with, no one had a lick of sense except you? Is that the reason you routinely called Flight Options management to complain (rat out) your SIC's? Talk about your delusions of grandeur! Time to move on. The fat lady has sung, and sung and sung and........

 

[GerryG]

More FUD

1. Under 135 IOE isn't required. Captains coming out of simuflite after indoc only need a 1 leg line check and F/Os require no additional training or checking. It would only take 1 check airman per fleet and 2 ground instructors to run new hires through indefinatly. Simuflite takes care of the rest. Same goes for recurrent.
2. I don't know who would cross the line. With a lot of typed unemployed charter and corp guys out there I doubt it would be hard to find 300 low integrity guys to scab. Maybe the VP of flight Ops could call some of his old friends from Eastern that are all checked out in the procedure.
3. I don't think the pax care about much more than getting into Aspen, their shrimp tray, and the bill at the end of the month. I bet most are actually hostile to organized labor since it threatens their control.
4. Kenn both tried to grow and rape the company at first but thats another story. It seems everyone who has run the company has plundered her to the detrement of the employees and customers.
5. This we can agree on. It is time to get Options back on the map. I would love nothing more than to be wrong. I think it would be great if the 1108 got a contract and Options once again became a great place to work. I just don't see how the union has the leverage to get that done right now.

You claim to have left options as a member in good standing with your union. I really doubt that, because I think any union member would understand how destructive this kind of fear mongering is.

Also, why would you care, since you don't work here anymore? I think in reality, what you really are is someone who has an interest in seeing us fail. Why else would you be trying so hard to undermine our pilots faith in their union?

Your posts have been some of the most divisive I've yet seen on FI. If you have noting to offer but FUD, keep your misguided opinions to yourself.

I think the reality of the situation is this. It really doesn't matter how many pilots will scab options. The publicity generated by a strike would end Flight Options through the redemption's it would generate. I am also confident that Mr. Ricci is aware of that.

As for scabs, I am equally confident the union knows how to deal with them.

"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a cork-screw soul, a water-logged brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of Hell to keep him out.

No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not." Jack London

The Inferno
"That soul up there which has the greatest pain,"
The Master said, "is Judas Iscariot;
With head inside, he plies his legs without.
Of the two others, who head downward are,
The one who hangs from the black jowl is Brutus;
See how he writhes himself, and speaks no word.
And the other, who so stalwart seems, is Cassius.
But night is reascending, and 'tis time
That we depart, for we have seen the whole." Dante

 

[guido411]

Also, why would you care, since you don't work here anymore? I think in reality, what you really are is someone who has an interest in seeing us fail. Why else would you be trying so hard to undermine our pilots faith in their union?

Lots of us have parted ways with Options but still have brothers and sisters still in the fight. Why would we care? Why WOULDN'T we? Just as I rooted for NJA when they fought their battle I knew it could do nothing but have a trickle-down effect across the industry. If Flops succeeds the same ought to happen, not just in the frax but airlines, charter, corporate, ect. Every annual survey that comes out showing in increase in pilots' QOL helps EVERY pilot.

I don't know if GBJ had any malintent by his posts but don't think those of us that have gone don't care anymore. The battle was mine once too, you know? Good Luck.

 

[jetwash]

I think the reality of the situation is this. It really doesn't matter how many pilots will scab options. The publicity generated by a strike would end Flight Options through the redemption's it would generate. I am also confident that Mr. Ricci is aware of that.

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You just have to listen to the weekly announcement about the example of the owner who was thinking about making a jump from FLOPS to Netjets. Then when the bad news came out about NJ losses for the first half of the year he decided to stay with FLOPS.

What do you think he will do when the FLOPS pilots call for a strike vote?

I have faith in our new management team that they will do the right thing and agree to a fair contract next month.

 

[netjetwife]

See below...duplicate post.

 

[netjetwife]

...Just as I rooted for NJA when they fought their battle I knew it could do nothing but have a trickle-down effect across the industry. Thanks for being a supportive member of the frac community. I think it makes a difference. If Flops succeeds the same ought to happen, not just in the frax but airlines, charter, corporate, ect. Every annual survey that comes out showing in increase in pilots' QOL helps EVERY pilot. Excellent point! I agree 100%.

I don't know if GBJ had any malintent by his posts but don't think those of us that have gone don't care anymore. The battle was mine once too, you know? Good Luck.

When I commended GBJ for still following the contract battle this viewpoint (well said, Guido) is what I was supporting, not GBJ's posts, per say. I leave internal details to the current Flt Ops pilots. I just wanted to clarify that in light of the debate on the thread.

A fair contract next month would be wonderful news but I won't be surprised if they make a low offer first. That seems to be par for the course in drawn-out contract battles.... If the TA is insulting the vote result will reflect that and it will be management's fault for wasting more time. Hang in there guys! NJW

 

[Alaska82]

Do unions really pay more year after year? When the IBT takes 2.5% for dues and average inflation per year is 3.0%. So i need a 5.5% pay raise just to keep up with the Joneses. I think net jets gets on average a 3.5% raise every year so with my calculations they are losing 2.0% purchasing power every year. And if history repeats itself industry leading contracts at one time or another will force the union to take pay concessions. But if you sleep better at night thinking you are getting a pay raise every year more power to you. The real money makers in unions are people being paid by them not the people paying them.

I flew a Options the MX was and is top of the line. Pay is low, management knows this and wants to pay us more, they just don't want to bankrupt the company in the process. If we didn't have a union pay would already be higher. The union has cost me money if i take into account what Mike S wanted to give us and that i will probably be taking a pay cut every year after the contract except for that initial pay increase with regard to inflation.

So why does it make financial since to have a union when companies will most likely give a 3.0% to 3.5% raise every year anyway. I think having to pay 2.5% of your pay for life is really hurting pilots in the long run with regard to inflation.

The real winners in the Fractional industry are FLEX and 5 Star they got pay raises based off the market, they don't pay dues and actually have a chance at beating inflation if it stays around 3.0%.

I wish Flight Options would hire someone to teach a crash course in business finance to its employees. Union companies are slow to react to changes it the market place. Why do we want to give our company a competitive disadvantage in the market place? Why don't we get in line with managements goals of making money via profit sharing and stock options. Sharing in a profitable companies success it the very best way of actually beating inflation.

Can union Kool Aid drinkers even consider the opposing view? Please respond with intellectual stimulating responses.

This is not my account and i am too cheap to pay the $10 fee. So i will have to read from the side lines after this post.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You claim to have left options as a member in good standing with your union. I really doubt that, because I think any union member would understand how destructive this kind of fear mongering is.

Also, why would you care, since you don't work here anymore? I think in reality, what you really are is someone who has an interest in seeing us fail. Why else would you be trying so hard to undermine our pilots faith in their union?

Your posts have been some of the most divisive I've yet seen on FI. If you have noting to offer but FUD, keep your misguided opinions to yourself.

I think the reality of the situation is this. It really doesn't matter how many pilots will scab options. The publicity generated by a strike would end Flight Options through the redemption's it would generate. I am also confident that Mr. Ricci is aware of that.

As for scabs, I am equally confident the union knows how to deal with them.

"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a cork-screw soul, a water-logged brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of Hell to keep him out.

No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not." Jack London

The Inferno
"That soul up there which has the greatest pain,"
The Master said, "is Judas Iscariot;
With head inside, he plies his legs without.
Of the two others, who head downward are,
The one who hangs from the black jowl is Brutus;
See how he writhes himself, and speaks no word.
And the other, who so stalwart seems, is Cassius.
But night is reascending, and 'tis time
That we depart, for we have seen the whole." Dante

Continental Airlines exists today because there were those who dared to take the tough road and cross. While unions hate those that crossed, thousands of jobs were saved as a result, and the company exists today as a result.


I've said this before, had I a chance to join them I would have. Those that crossed are a lot more honorable for taking the tough road and saving the company from certain destruction than those that sought to destroy the company out of greed.

 

[CA1900]

Do unions really pay more year after year? When the IBT takes 2.5% for dues and average inflation per year is 3.0%. So i need a 5.5% pay raise just to keep up with the Joneses.

I think you might want to check your math.

Pay is low, management knows this and wants to pay us more...

:laugh: Yes, I'm sure they're just dying to pay you, but the pesky union won't let them. Uh-huh.

The real winners in the Fractional industry are FLEX and 5 Star they got pay raises based off the market...

And how, exactly, do you think the "market price" got set? Further, a Flex pilot works 208 days to make the same money as a Netjets guy working 182. Not sure how that makes them the "real winners."

Can union Kool Aid drinkers even consider the opposing view?

Absolutely. I've worked for non-union companies that did right by their employees because it was the right thing to do, and had little need for a union. (It sounds to me like Avantair is one of those companies -- glad to hear it.) I've also worked a non-union airline that abused the sh*t out of their employees, and didn't adjust its payscale for over a decade, and when they did, it was a 0.67% increase. No kidding. Talk about losing buying power...

 

[993_Pilot]

Continental Airlines exists today because there were those who dared to take the tough road and cross. While unions hate those that crossed, thousands of jobs were saved as a result, and the company exists today as a result.

How did it work out for those pilots that crossed at Eastern? . . . None of those pilots can get a job with any of the majors now. All their hopes of a career as major airline pilots have vanished.

Besides, this is the fractional forum, not the airline forum.

 

[993_Pilot]

Do unions really pay more year after year? When the IBT takes 2.5% for dues and average inflation per year is 3.0%. So i need a 5.5% pay raise just to keep up with the Joneses. I think net jets gets on average a 3.5% raise every year so with my calculations they are losing 2.0% purchasing power every year...

Where to begin. . . First off, you better check your math for more reasons than one. We need about a 50-60% pay increase to "Keep up with the Jones"
Secondly, The IBT doesn't take that much, it is 1.56%. Thirdly, That percentage stays the same, so once you have started paying your dues, if Cost of living goes up 3% we need a 3% increase to keep up. If you don't think the average union pilot makes 1.56% more than the average non-union pilot, think it through again before you post.

I flew a Options the MX was and is top of the line.

Hah, good one. I wouldn't argue that our mechanics are capable of fixing the aircraft properly. . . if allowed the time. However, if they can't figure it out quickly and the aircraft has a flight scheduled, management pressures them to get it out the door with a MEL sticker, "a adjusted widget, ops check good" or a "can not duplicate, ops check good".

Pay is low, management knows this...

The first correct thing you've said!

... and wants to pay us more, they just don't want to bankrupt the company in the process.

That's almost funny. They are free to pay us more any time they wish. Instead, they are taking away our 401k match, raising the cost of our medical insurance, forcing vacations, etc.

If we didn't have a union pay would already be higher. The union has cost me money if i take into account what Mike S wanted to give us and that i will probably be taking a pay cut every year after the contract except for that initial pay increase with regard to inflation.

Policy that can be instituted at the whim of management can be taken away on another whim. What do you think would have happened to that raise when the economy tanked? What work rules did MS improve, any? In fact in addition to raising the cost of our medical insurance, he instituted a $50/month additional co-pay for spouses that have medical insurance available. His "offer" of a pay raise was a last ditch effort to settle the contract and save his job. . . and we still would have been the lowest paid pilots in the fractional industry!

So why does it make financial since to have a union when companies will most likely give a 3.0% to 3.5% raise every year anyway. I think having to pay 2.5% of your pay for life is really hurting pilots in the long run with regard to inflation.

Because it isn't "most likely" in a contract, it is definite. So are the work rules. The contract is about more than money. Even if it weren't, the average union pilot makes more than the average non-union pilot... in fact, the average difference is way more than enough to cover the 1.56% dues. Flight Options NEVER gave me a Cost of Living raise in all the years I have worked here, before or after the union. I have gotten a longevity raise, but it is only $100/month or about 1.5%, which is much less than inflation by your estimate.

The real winners in the Fractional industry are FLEX and 5 Star they got pay raises based off the market, they don't pay dues and actually have a chance at beating inflation if it stays around 3.0%.

Why do you think they got those raises? Did they get them first? Were they ever an industry leader in how their pilots were compensated or work rules? They got those raises because Netjets set the bar, and those companies didn't want to lose pilots to the competition or have a union. Plus, they have to work more days to still get less pay and don't have the work rules or the protections either. I would happily take an average of Citation Shares, Flexjet and Netjets pay. Had Flops management offered those kind of raises, they may not have a union, but that's all in the past now.

I wish Flight Options would hire someone to teach a crash course in business finance to its employees. Union companies are slow to react to changes it the market place. Why do we want to give our company a competitive disadvantage in the market place? Why don't we get in line with managements goals of making money via profit sharing and stock options. Sharing in a profitable companies success it the very best way of actually beating inflation.

I think you are the one that needs "a crash course in business finance". I'm all for profit sharing, just tie it to the same goals/metrics as Kenn Ricci's, and put it in a contract.

Can union Kool Aid drinkers even consider the opposing view? Please respond with intellectual stimulating responses.

I have, and I just did.

This is not my account and i am too cheap to pay the $10 fee. So i will have to read from the side lines after this post.

What a surprise! Probably the same reason you don't want to pay your dues.

 

[Frac Cap]

993, I have to say that you are right on target on all your points, especially the last one. The best thing about voting on the CBA is that only the MIGs will be able to vote on it. We have been under paid for long enough. The economy is getting better, We now want an industry leading contract.

If the money is not at least industry standard, I and 25 of the people that I am close to will vote it down Just in time for peak travel. Don't wast our time on a crappy first offer, it will only hurt us all in peak travel (pilots pay, and companys sales).

 

[jetwash]

993,

If the money is not at least industry standard, I and 25 of the people that I am close to will vote it down Just in time for peak travel. Don't wast our time on a crappy first offer, it will only hurt us all in peak travel (pilots pay, and companys sales).

Make that 26 !

 

[dime line]

Yea I bet we will see more FLOPS pilots posting here, the union finally gave their freeloading azzezz the boot from the Union message board. They can read only.
I really love that only MIGS can vote!

 

[netjetwife]

It's only fair and right that those who want to vote on a contract that was fought for fair treatment and respect should be required to first extend that attitude to their fellow 1108 Members.

UNION DUES ARE A WISE INVESTMENT IN YOUR FUTURE

 

[ProFracPilot]

If the money is not at least industry standard, I and 25 of the people that I am close to will vote it down Just in time for peak travel.

+1 to your list.

 

[sky4]

What would you say industry standard is right now?

 

[BE40Driver]

1108

The 1108 is now pushing away the pilots that are not current with dues to be the new SFO's (good ol boys club) of Flight options. Very sad.

 

[Freedom]

Sad for the New Good Ole Boys Members...

The 1108 is now pushing away the pilots that are not current with dues to be the new SFO's (good ol boys club) of Flight options. Very sad.

Because once the Contract is settled, that small group will become more and more isolated.

Hiring will eventually start again. All those New Hires will be Members in Good Standing (or at least pay a service fee of approx the same amount). That hold out group of Freeloaders who decided they would take their raises on the backs of their fellow pilots financial and back busting support, will become further isolated. And that's OK. They made their bed, they decided to stand with Management rather than their fellow Pilot brothers.

This, of course, is just the divide and conquer kind of stuff that Management loves. However, too little, too late. The Freeloader Club at Options has become rather small.

I hope they enjoy their futures as an ever shrinking minority.


Freedom is NOT Free