On-duty controller during crash had 2 hours sleep before work

[XJohXJ]

Hey, c'mon guys, the FAA does hand out literature on how to avoid being fatigued, all you gotta do is read it, and then your not fatigued, right?

Not to mention, I'm sure they've got some really great memos on the importance of being professional, too. Management sure did their jobs, didn't they?

 

[asmn]

Controller Responsibility

I'm sorry but maybe there is some, not a lot, of blame towards the controller at LEX, but there are a lot of uncontrolled airports that all regional pilots fly in and out of. There is too much finger pointing going on here. This is a classic case of complacency. Sorry, just my two cents. I mean no disrespect; my prayers go out to the crew, passengers and families.

Fully understanding all factors that lead to an accident is the only way to improve safety in the future. I can think of several possible mistakes by this controller. It is the controller's job to record the ATIS. Did the ATIS even say that taxiway A is closed? It didn't when I flew in there a few days ago.

A taxi clearance of "Taxi 22" really only works if the airport diagrams and NOTAMS are up-to-date. In this situation is should have been a full route clearance, "Comair 5191 taxi runway 22 taxiway A, cross 26, A5, hold short 22."

Lastly a full length departure of 22 with the new threshold requires a back taxi. The controller should have asked if Comair could accept an intersection departure 22 A5 (they couldn't) if not the takeoff clearance should be "Comair 5191 cleared to back taxi and takeooff 22".

Anyone one of this things would have notified the crew that the taxi route was different and that runway 22's construction had resulted in a new threshold.

 

[Tram]

Yeh, the controller bears a little of the responsibility, but at the end of the day, it was the crew who pushed the throttles up...

 

[climbhappy]

until we hear the tapes, we don't know what the crew said regarding the lights. as a pilot and i've talked to alot my buds, wouldn't you question the tower at least as to why the lights on 22 were out.. i'm guessing it has a good compliment of side lighting. does it have centerline? it is still a little dark at 600 am.


it was not the tower controller's job to prevent that accident. his sleep deprivation was only a mitigating factor and will be said to be part of the famous accident chain.

 

[Tomct]

With any luck this piss poor attempt by the FAA at saving money should change due to the bad press alone, not to mention 49 deaths. To have one controller recording ATIS, working ground, tower and approach & departure scopes is insane. Not to mention trying to do it in the middle of the night with minimum rest. I don't care how busy the airport isn't, you'll have to step off for a minute or two to grab a coffee and then take a leak.

It just goes to show that the regs are written in blood.

Truer words have NEVER BEEN SPOKEN!!!!! God Bless All of the victims of this terrible tragedy.

 

[Hung Start]

"A tower controller is responsible for aircraft separation on the runways. I don't think this is possible if the controller doesn't know which runway the airplane is using. So, I would say that without a doubt the controller has responsibility in this matter."

Someone posted this on another board. Not placing blame, but this could have prevented a tragedy had the tower been staffed correctly.

Maybe.

But we live and breath with 91.3 "The PIC of an aircraft is directly responsible, and is the final authority as to the operation of that aircraft."

If we allow shifting of this rule around the horn by passing blame, heck, we might as well be garbage truck drivers.

And I know sometimes we are treated as such, but once that rule changes, it's all over.

Hung

 

[Morning Wood]

Fully understanding all factors that lead to an accident is the only way to improve safety in the future. I can think of several possible mistakes by this controller. It is the controller's job to record the ATIS. Did the ATIS even say that taxiway A is closed? It didn't when I flew in there a few days ago.

A taxi clearance of "Taxi 22" really only works if the airport diagrams and NOTAMS are up-to-date. In this situation is should have been a full route clearance, "Comair 5191 taxi runway 22 taxiway A, cross 26, A5, hold short 22."

Lastly a full length departure of 22 with the new threshold requires a back taxi. The controller should have asked if Comair could accept an intersection departure 22 A5 (they couldn't) if not the takeoff clearance should be "Comair 5191 cleared to back taxi and takeooff 22".

Unless this guy gave the two previous airline departures the taxi clearance you mention or asked them about departing 22 at A5, then I don't think he would have had any reason to think about doing the same for Comair. My guess would be that he gave all three the exact same abbreviated taxi clearance. Two figured it out and one didn't.

 

[goahead]

It's legal and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

 

[172driver]

The CL lights on 22 were OTS. I believe the CVR showed that the crew remarked that the 26 lts were out during the t/o roll, not at the beginning of it. My speculation is that when lined up on 26, they could see the rwy lts on either side of 22, which could appear to be the 26 lts. Remember, there is a pretty good hump on both rwys, so you can't see much more than the first 1000-1500 ft.

 

[whatfuelpolicy]

ATC is supposed to visually verify the aircraft's location on the airport every time an instruction is given. Or at least that's what I was taught when I went through ATC school in the military.

 

[Morning Wood]

ATC is supposed to visually verify the aircraft's location on the airport every time an instruction is given. Or at least that's what I was taught when I went through ATC school in the military.

Not doubting what you said, but how is that possible at airports with signs that say "ATC Non Vis Area"?

 

[scarlet]

ATC definition is to separate aircraft=NOT FLY IT !!

STOP blaming the controller, that is what the media wants us to do! What he did was legal and he indeed made sure that Comair was cleared for T.O. as far as landing traffic and once airborne.

There are numbers on the runway!!! REMEMBER we fly more with our HEADS than we do with our FEET and HANDS...

 

[HoserASA]

ATC definition is to separate aircraft=NOT FLY IT !!
quote]

A controller's duty is to separate planes, and to ensure proper aircraft movement on the ground by proper taxi instructions and by watching his/her traffic. This controller was functioning as ground and local controller, so he should have not "turned his back" to this flight. The crew is ultimately responsible for this mishap, no one is arguing that, and made a tragic mistake. Read the comments here from former/retired controllers. They all say what I just wrote. You watch your traffic, period. If he had done this at LEX, maybe, just maybe, this accident could have been prevented. That is all we're all saying. Fly safe!

Hoser

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

The Hose-man is totally accurate on this one. A local controller who does not watch the traffic is not doing their job. Ground control also for that matter. Been there, done that, just like Hoser.

 

[81Horse]

A controller might feel that a regular operator's flightcrew was familiar with the airport and current taxiway/runway projects. A fatigued controller, distracted by too many other duties, operating solo, might not be babysitting each departure. I'm sure the man is devastated, because no matter what the extenuating circumstances were, he will feel he missed the last chance to prevent a tragedy.

The flightcrew missed their chances to do the same. (Okay, a show of hands: how many of you were always crosschecking your runway heading on takeoff? And I mean before this disaster.)

I think we are going to find out some unpleasant facts about signage, markings, lights, etc.

 

[erj-145mech]

The Hose-man is totally accurate on this one. A local controller who does not watch the traffic is not doing their job. Ground control also for that matter. Been there, done that, just like Hoser.

Negative, the controller issued a take off clearance, the crew accepted that clearance, and failed to follow that clearance. Its not the controllers job to check that the pilots are doing there job. Have you ever accepted a contact approach? Maintain visual separation?

 

[erj-145mech]

ATC is supposed to visually verify the aircraft's location on the airport every time an instruction is given. Or at least that's what I was taught when I went through ATC school in the military.

Thats one of the differences between mil and civ ATC. When was the last time you had to verify landing gear down and locked?

 

[ASARJMan]

Negative, the controller issued a take off clearance, the crew accepted that clearance, and failed to follow that clearance. Its not the controllers job to check that the pilots are doing there job. Have you ever accepted a contact approach? Maintain visual separation?

Woooooooooooeeeeeeeee! Boy, you better stick to those wrenches and leave the real world to us professional peelots, okkkkk???? Clueless you are.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASARJMan]

Thats one of the differences between mil and civ ATC. When was the last time you had to verify landing gear down and locked?

are them the planes you've worked on mechy, or are we supposed to believe you flew them, or went for a ride in some/all of them?

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASARJMan]

Thats one of the differences between mil and civ ATC. When was the last time you had to verify landing gear down and locked?

Here in the airline world mechy, gear down is verified down every landing! See mechy, those little Cessnuts have gear that's already down. Maybe that's why you're so confused. Now, back to the GA message board with you!

VOTED IN FAVOR!