Occupy FlightInfo.com

[The Prussian]

Based on individual incomes, not combined household.

Then to me, these figures don't mean a whole lot.

 

[HalinTexas]

Sorry, but you've been handed the wrong set of "talking points". :laugh:

The current situation is a result of NAFTA and other failed policies crafted by a class of professional Legislators and Lobbyists, on behalf of corporations, and at the expense of hard-working Americans.

Hal, your situation is a prime example of what I am talking about. It's not that you don't want to work, or are lazy, or aren't trying . . . . it's that the jobs are no longer here, but the dividends and bonuses are.

Seems to me, the Tea Party and the Occupy groups are both saying the same thing . . . . they're mad that our political system is broken, our politicians are bought and paid for, and they're fed up.

The press demonized the Tea Party as racists, and the Occupiers as Communists and Anarchists, while the majority are neither.

Some call NAFTA a success: Cato

I disagree with your assessment. Tea Partiers decry the excesses of government, OWS decries Wall Street. I do not believe that either our political or economic system is broken. No one ever said that they would work perfectly and never fail. Democracy allows the failures to be expunged, and capitalism works in cycles. The failures are replaced by the succeeders. The excesses collapse upon themselves to be supplanted by the opportunistic.

 

[Ty Webb]

That article was written in 1998, when NAFTA was beginning its fourth year. Thirteen years further, I think the real results are apparent.

The town I grew up in had five factories that provided good wages. Unfortunately, they have all left the USA, every last one of them. Pretty sad.

I'm very grateful for what I have and what I've been able to accomplish, but many folks haven't been so lucky, and through no fault of their own. I know a lot of them.

 

[Whine Lover]

Wow.

"Class", as defined by Income.

Sad.

"Class", as defined by Social Standards and Material Wealth.

Bad.


IF you are healthy, get happy, and take care of those whom you Love, as well as they might take care of YOU.

That is "Class".

None of this material existence matters. Enjoy the Time you have.


MKR

 

[HalinTexas]

That article was written in 1998, when NAFTA was beginning its fourth year. Thirteen years further, I think the real results are apparent.

The town I grew up in had five factories that provided good wages. Unfortunately, they have all left the USA, every last one of them. Pretty sad.

I'm very grateful for what I have and what I've been able to accomplish, but many folks haven't been so lucky, and through no fault of their own. I know a lot of them.

There's nothing more recent than 2003. However, the FTA with Panama, Colombia and S. Korea were finally passed. That should say something positive about FTAs in general.

Did they go to Canada or Mexico? Since NAFTA, there has been a growth of jobs in Texas. Foreign car manufacturing among them.

 

[HalinTexas]

Wow.

"Class", as defined by Income.

Sad.

"Class", as defined by Social Standards and Material Wealth.

Bad.


IF you are healthy, get happy, and take care of those whom you Love, as well as they might take care of YOU.

That is "Class".

None of this material existence matters. Enjoy the Time you have.


MKR

Point taken. It's all arbitrary anyway.

My point wasn't so much about status as it was about social convention. Had to start somewhere. Middle class for one is upper (or lower) class for another.

 

[Ty Webb]

There's nothing more recent than 2003. However, the FTA with Panama, Colombia and S. Korea were finally passed. That should say something positive about FTAs in general.

Did they go to Canada or Mexico? Since NAFTA, there has been a growth of jobs in Texas. Foreign car manufacturing among them.

Don't forget CAFTA . . . . When Mexico wasn't cheap enough, we went further south.

FTA's are good, but not for the American worker, unless you count being able to buy cheap foreign crap at Wal-mart a "benefit".

Anyway, enough ranting . . . . I'm going to get down off this soapbox before I fall. Best of luck in your search, Hal. Hope 2012 is a good year for All.

Regards,
TW

 

[Jar Jar]

Buying cheap foreign crap would be GREAT so long as everyone here was producing goods/services of a greater value. Unfortunately 20% of our workers arent working, 15% more have jobs that dont utilize their skills adequetly and an additional 15% work for the government which produces near zero benefit to the economy as a whole.

 

[pilotyip]

What is middle class?

The middle class has been completely decimated over the past twenty years, mostly in the name of short-term Quarterly Earnings and executive bonuses.

We always hear this battle cry, the middle class is this; the middle class is that and middle class how is your soul? But no one has ever defined middle class. Is it the middle, mean/median income, net worth, size of house, number of cars, bedrooms, what is middle class? BTW I think I was middle class growing up in Detroit, 5 kids, 800 sq ft house two bedroom house, we had a TV in 1950, we were upper middle class on our block, one car, never ate out unless grandparents came to town.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

OWS is VERY left leaning.

My dumb-@ss step-son, 23, barely got out of high school. He was diagnosed with a learning disability and milked it for all its worth. He got through because he didn't cause trouble. He's had more jobs than I've had my entire life! He's NEVER worked for minimum wage. His fiance' (don't get me started) just moved in with us until she goes to Navy BT in Feb. Her first day of job hunting found 3 jobs. They will take her full or part time. She's probably going to take two of them as part time. Dumb@ss is in truck-driving school. Don't know if he'll pass, but if he does he'll be making $800/wk driving a truck.

I'm 46, unemployed for the 4th time since 04/03/2008, with a college degree (math/science, Liberal Arts) that's useless, have started two businesses with my wife (also unemployed the same date in '08), and we're in debt up to our ears. I can't even get an interview with anyone by a regional. I may be driving a truck, too. Right now, I'm making $8.50 an hour as a UPS Driver Helper for the holidays. My wife (51, ex FA) hopes to start at Home Depot, soon. Her business is off because it's winter, mine is just very, very slow. I've liquidated $40K of my IRA over the last 2 years to help start a business and pay my bills. We're working! BTW, I took UE for 9 months, my wife 6. It paid more than what Compass and Pinnacle were going to pay me to work there. What do you think my incentive was to work for that?

I don't begrudge the Upper Class. I was one of them once. I've generally found that the middle class is over-rated. Those that whine about the "losing" middle class have made bad or unlucky choices, given up and/or are not willing to work very hard. I know I've made some bad choices, and I've been busting my @ss at whatever I can find. I've left the country 3 times for flying work, and am willing to leave again!

I've been an ALPA member since 1994. So far, they've just taken 2% of my wages. Can't see the benefit of being a member of this "class protector." They've done nothing to help me find work. My friends at ATA have done much more to help than just about anything else. My local friends I've made in the last 3 years have done more. I'm blessed.

As evident in Black Friday, Small Biz Saturday, and Cyber Monday, the middle class isn't hurting all that bad. All those goods made by the ever growing Chinese middle class, made some Chinese upper class, also growing, a lot of money. I type on a MacBook, awaiting a call on my iPhone (3g), all made in China, from my UPS contact ready to work.

Use your brains, think critically, don't shy away from hard work and quit whining. No one said life would be easy. Get to work! Network. Don't worry, too much, whether the job beneath you. You'd be surprised how many are doing the same thing!

Almost ready for that truck-driving school.

The OWS movement is a way to mainstream socialism and communism. If you can't see that, then you are destined to it. Let's look at the income disparity in the communist and socialist contries and see how thats working out. China and Venezuela have some of the worst income disparities in the world and some of the worst suffering the world has to offer (other than a Sheria). In this country "deserve" has nothing to do with it, you get what you work for or you starve. I am happy to help those who are willing to help themselves, but I'll be damned if I'll give a penny to those who think they can help themselves to my stuff. This country is about providence, self-reliance, and grace. If you don't agree, there are plenty of other countries you can occupy that agree with you. Sad to see people like Ty are going to occupy my company.

Both of you complain that OWS is 'left leaning'. But honestly, who really cares which way they lean politically? They are CORRECT. Political leanings aside, who cares? Just like who really care which way the Tea Party tips?

You want to fix this country? 1: Corporations are NOT people, and should not have the same rights as people. SCOTUS was wrong. 2: everyone needs to get off the political bias soapbox. Both side have valid points, and compromise is what is needed. Clean out congress (both sides), fix both the legal AND the tax code, and then ENFORCE the laws already on the books.

It would be a start.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[waveflyer]

TyWebb- impressive responses- was going to reply, but most would be redundant

While you guys argue the definitions of income classes- remember as the extremely rich gain more- as the gap between ridiculously wealthy and everyone else grows- the percentages are skewed.

To me, there comes a point- and it is not subjective- somewhere around $10M annually, where your compensation becomes more about your ability to attain money, and stacking leverage and regulation to keep money, than it is about your ability to earn it. We are airline pilots- I know what I have done, how hard I've worked, and how hard I continue to work- when someone makes twice as much in a year as I will make in a career, the problem is leverage, more than work ethic. It is not about punishing success- it's about understanding that once a certain amount of wealth is attained- that class has no need of success for generations- their money will be locked away- not circulated- and at best, taxed at 15%-
I do not begrudge anyone's success - but we have to keep money circulating- and it just isn't as the super wealthy hoard and buy/lobby leverage to keep instead of use their money to build and keep a nation strong

 

[flythere]

It seems there's this mind set, I'm going to start calling it the "instant gratification crowd" This generation wants what is theirs right now!! No more waiting, no more working at a company for 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. I want to start making my full earning potential right now, today! And if I don't like this company, then I want to be able to take what's "MINE" and go somewhere else!

Maybe this generation, since they've grown up all being winners; remember the YMCA, everybody wins, no score kept, everybody gets a trophy, there are no failures. (I think that sets kids up for failure later on in life) No more waiting a week for a package to arrive by mail, it can land via FedEx next day!

No more getting a dictionary out and looking up words or meanings, we simply enter it into our smart phone with instant results!

So no wonder this generation of young adults wants what is perceived to be theirs right now, today!

It's this "instant gratification crowd" that wants this system to change, because they want theirs right now, today!

For those of us old enough to remember Daffy Duck, it was always about him, me me me, mine mine mine, it's alllllll mine!!!!

That's all folks!!!!!

 

[zonejumper]

It seems there's this mind set, I'm going to start calling it the "instant gratification crowd" This generation wants what is theirs right now!! No more waiting, no more working at a company for 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. I want to start making my full earning potential right now, today! And if I don't like this company, then I want to be able to take what's "MINE" and go somewhere else!

Maybe this generation, since they've grown up all being winners; remember the YMCA, everybody wins, no score kept, everybody gets a trophy, there are no failures. (I think that sets kids up for failure later on in life) No more waiting a week for a package to arrive by mail, it can land via FedEx next day!

No more getting a dictionary out and looking up words or meanings, we simply enter it into our smart phone with instant results!

So no wonder this generation of young adults wants what is perceived to be theirs right now, today!

It's this "instant gratification crowd" that wants this system to change, because they want theirs right now, today!

For those of us old enough to remember Daffy Duck, it was always about him, me me me, mine mine mine, it's alllllll mine!!!!

That's all folks!!!!!

Amen! I could have written your post myself. I don't think this generation even knows what libraries or encyclopedias are!

 

[Ty Webb]

You guys (and ladies) are way too young to be so crotchety . . . . :laugh:

Kind of reminds me of the "Grumpy Old Man" on SNL:

http://youtu.be/9N2E93VzQSA

 

[waveflyer]

Fly and zone- I find it funny that you begrudge the young- when older folks have had a better deal at almost every step- from how much you paid for your education to the job you had once you were done-

 

[zonejumper]

Fly and zone- I find it funny that you begrudge the young- when older folks have had a better deal at almost every step- from how much you paid for your education to the job you had once you were done-

You must have a reading comprehension problem. I DON'T begrudge the young...I begrudge the "entitlement" young (and others with the same mentality, no matter WHAT their age.) I have 3 young adult children and it was difficult to raise them NOT to have the attitude they were exposed to most of their lives by some of their contemporaries and the media.

 

[madjack]

'I begrudge the "entitlement" young (and others with the same mentality, no matter WHAT their age.)'

Agree, entitled attitude knows no age limit....

 

[flythere]

You must have a reading comprehension problem. I DON'T begrudge the young...I begrudge the "entitlement" young (and others with the same mentality, no matter WHAT their age.) I have 3 young adult children and it was difficult to raise them NOT to have the attitude they were exposed to most of their lives by some of their contemporaries and the media.

Dito,

we don't begrudge the young, you guys are our future!! What we don't like is the thought that you want to earn top wage right now!! You want week-ends and holidays off this year!

And if you don't get what you want, then you want to protest, disrupt everybody else until you get your way!!

I think this whole OWS crowd is the 1% and the rest of us are the 99%, but you know the old saying, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. While the 99% of us are working, paying for public services, the 1%-ers are abusing the system!!

 

[Ty Webb]

Maybe they are complaining about how our taxpayer dollars have been misappropriated for corporate welfare/bailouts/bonuses, while there have been no jobs created by these trillions of taxpayer dollars . . . . not to mention the lack of any jobs created by the wasteful "stimulus" spending . . . . .

Here's an even crazier idea . . . . shouldn't we ALL be complaining about trillions of OUR dollars being used for corporate welfare, while all of the manufacturing jobs get shipped overseas? :erm:

Oh, wait, it's just a bunch of young punks who want weekends off.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Dito,

we don't begrudge the young, you guys are our future!! What we don't like is the thought that you want to earn top wage right now!! You want week-ends and holidays off this year!

And if you don't get what you want, then you want to protest, disrupt everybody else until you get your way!!

I think this whole OWS crowd is the 1% and the rest of us are the 99%, but you know the old saying, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. While the 99% of us are working, paying for public services, the 1%-ers are abusing the system!!

What you guys dont seem to understand is that the system is rigged and its not in your favor. Its not a matter of refusing to work hard, but of unfair odds which make it next to impossible to succeed fairly.

 

[flythere]

What you guys dont seem to understand is that the system is rigged and its not in your favor. Its not a matter of refusing to work hard, but of unfair odds which make it next to impossible to succeed fairly.

Hmm,

Seems to be working pretty good for the majority of us! work my 75-80 hrs per month, get a good paycheck twice a month, vacation, medical/dental, time off for my military duty, the boss leaves his door open and I work with a pretty good bunch of guys!

I live within my means and look forward to retirement in 15-16 yrs, I know my job is to help provide a quality product to my customers and hope they enjoy the experience and will want to come back!

Just like I have choices when I have my car worked on, I have lot's of choices, I choose the place the does the best job for the best price! Sure there are cheaper places, but for me, I'm willing to pay an extra couple of bucks, because I like the service I get!

I'm just not seeing the whole rigged thing at all!!

 

[zonejumper]

Hmm,

Seems to be working pretty good for the majority of us! work my 75-80 hrs per month, get a good paycheck twice a month, vacation, medical/dental, time off for my military duty, the boss leaves his door open and I work with a pretty good bunch of guys!

I live within my means and look forward to retirement in 15-16 yrs, I know my job is to help provide a quality product to my customers and hope they enjoy the experience and will want to come back!

Just like I have choices when I have my car worked on, I have lot's of choices, I choose the place the does the best job for the best price! Sure there are cheaper places, but for me, I'm willing to pay an extra couple of bucks, because I like the service I get!

I'm just not seeing the whole rigged thing at all!!

Oh, stop making sense! Don't you know it's all a conspiracy theory and EVERYONE is a victim?

 

[flythere]

Maybe they are complaining about how our taxpayer dollars have been misappropriated for corporate welfare/bailouts/bonuses, while there have been no jobs created by these trillions of taxpayer dollars . . . . not to mention the lack of any jobs created by the wasteful "stimulus" spending . . . . .

Here's an even crazier idea . . . . shouldn't we ALL be complaining about trillions of OUR dollars being used for corporate welfare, while all of the manufacturing jobs get shipped overseas? :erm:

Oh, wait, it's just a bunch of young punks who want weekends off.

Maybe you guys(the younger generation) should have voted the other way in 2008?? Be careful what you wish for!!

 

[waveflyer]

I'm getting really tired of the lectures guys- you do not have 1 accomplishment in your airline career that I do not. I am fine. I have one of the good jobs- but the difference is it's not all about me- I can't see what has gone on and not do anything about it.
Maybe you're a giant coward and abide greed. I don't. It's ruining the country and guys like you allow it.

Now, once again- WHO DO YOU WORK FOR Flythere? Where life is so great and you haven't been taken advantage of?

When you answer, I can give you a list of airline exec trangressions that can barely be held on the FI server- but I have to know the context of your point of view-

In the meantime - I'll leave you with a list of larger legal greed crimes-

…While CEOs of the companies that led us down this path have been let go with golden parachutes.


Countrywide’s founder and CEO Angelo R. Mozilo

$704 million: Countrywide Financial Corp. net loss in 2007.
11,000: Number of workers Countrywide laid off between July, 2007, and January 29, 2008.
$37.5 million: Approximate value of cash severance payments, consulting fees, and perquisites (including private airplane use) that Angelo Mozilo, founder and CEO of Countrywide, gave up after Countrywide’s merger with Bank of America.
$23.8 million: Estimated value of Mozilo’s company retirement plan in December 2006, the last year for which data are available. Mozilo did not forgo these benefits.

Merrill Lynch’s former Chairman and CEO E. Stanley O’Neal (ret. Oct. 30, 2007)

$161.5 million: Value of securities and retirement benefits that Stanley O’Neal walked away with from Merrill Lynch when he retired. O’Neal did not receive a traditional severance payment.
$7.8 billion: Merrill Lynch net loss for all of 2007.

Citigroup’s former Chairman and CEO Charles Prince (ret. Nov. 4, 2007)

$17.4 billion: Citigroup write-downs on subprime related direct exposures in 2007.
$9.83 billion: Citigroup’s 2007 fourth-quarter loss.
$40 billion: Approximate value of Prince’s retirement package, shares, and options in Citi stock upon his retirement in November, 2007.

-----------
Now do the math and contemplate what $40B truly is- and wonder, under lax estate tax laws, if prince's grandchildren's grandchildren will ever have to work a day in their life- or are they modern day American entitled by birth Lords.

If you aren't pissed- you're a gutless coward with no integrity.

 

[pilotyip]

If you aren't pissed- you're a gutless coward with no integrity.

Life is too short to be pissed off, yes those guys are dirt bags. Your solutions for these dirt bags you described is what? We should kill them all and their children, worked well for the Russians in 1917 didn't it. Or maybe we should go to a union run country like England in the 1950's, worked out well there also didn't it. Maybe a law that if you make more money than the top SWA Captain, all that money has to be taxed a 100%, that would teach people to think about being greedy and rich, why they might even take their money and move to Costa Rica or something. What is your solution besides being pissed off?

 

[Quimby]

It seems there's this mind set, I'm going to start calling it the "instant gratification crowd" This generation wants what is theirs right now!! No more waiting, no more working at a company for 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. I want to start making my full earning potential right now, today! And if I don't like this company, then I want to be able to take what's "MINE" and go somewhere else!

Maybe this generation, since they've grown up all being winners; remember the YMCA, everybody wins, no score kept, everybody gets a trophy, there are no failures. (I think that sets kids up for failure later on in life) No more waiting a week for a package to arrive by mail, it can land via FedEx next day!

No more getting a dictionary out and looking up words or meanings, we simply enter it into our smart phone with instant results!

So no wonder this generation of young adults wants what is perceived to be theirs right now, today!

It's this "instant gratification crowd" that wants this system to change, because they want theirs right now, today!

For those of us old enough to remember Daffy Duck, it was always about him, me me me, mine mine mine, it's alllllll mine!!!!

That's all folks!!!!!

+100

I want it all & I want it now. We are so spoiled in this country, compared to so many in the rest of the world.

 

[Quimby]

I'm getting really tired of the lectures guys- you do not have 1 accomplishment in your airline career that I do not. I am fine. I have one of the good jobs- but the difference is it's not all about me- I can't see what has gone on and not do anything about it.
Maybe you're a giant coward and abide greed. I don't. It's ruining the country and guys like you allow it.

Now, once again- WHO DO YOU WORK FOR Flythere? Where life is so great and you haven't been taken advantage of?

When you answer, I can give you a list of airline exec trangressions that can barely be held on the FI server- but I have to know the context of your point of view-

In the meantime - I'll leave you with a list of larger legal greed crimes-

…While CEOs of the companies that led us down this path have been let go with golden parachutes.


Countrywide’s founder and CEO Angelo R. Mozilo

$704 million: Countrywide Financial Corp. net loss in 2007.
11,000: Number of workers Countrywide laid off between July, 2007, and January 29, 2008.
$37.5 million: Approximate value of cash severance payments, consulting fees, and perquisites (including private airplane use) that Angelo Mozilo, founder and CEO of Countrywide, gave up after Countrywide’s merger with Bank of America.
$23.8 million: Estimated value of Mozilo’s company retirement plan in December 2006, the last year for which data are available. Mozilo did not forgo these benefits.

Merrill Lynch’s former Chairman and CEO E. Stanley O’Neal (ret. Oct. 30, 2007)

$161.5 million: Value of securities and retirement benefits that Stanley O’Neal walked away with from Merrill Lynch when he retired. O’Neal did not receive a traditional severance payment.
$7.8 billion: Merrill Lynch net loss for all of 2007.

Citigroup’s former Chairman and CEO Charles Prince (ret. Nov. 4, 2007)

$17.4 billion: Citigroup write-downs on subprime related direct exposures in 2007.
$9.83 billion: Citigroup’s 2007 fourth-quarter loss.
$40 billion: Approximate value of Prince’s retirement package, shares, and options in Citi stock upon his retirement in November, 2007.

-----------
Now do the math and contemplate what $40B truly is- and wonder, under lax estate tax laws, if prince's grandchildren's grandchildren will ever have to work a day in their life- or are they modern day American entitled by birth Lords.

If you aren't pissed- you're a gutless coward with no integrity.

Be pissed off all you want, all you'll get out of it is an ulcer. It's not worth it.

Instead of worrying about what someone else has, just be grateful for what you have. You're probably not with out shelter, food, a smart phone, reliable car, clothes, shoes without holes, etc. Compared to probably 90% of the people on this rock, you're living like a freakin' king.

 

[pilotyip]

Be pissed off all you want, all you'll get out of it is an ulcer. It's not worth it.

Instead of worrying about what someone else has, just be grateful for what you have. You're probably not with out shelter, food, a smart phone, reliable car, clothes, shoes without holes, etc. Compared to probably 90% of the people on this rock, you're living like a freakin' king.

Well said, he is living better than 95% of the people in this country and 99.5% better than everyone on this rock. But it is not enough, because others have more, and they have not worked as hard as he has, nor are they as professional, or as well educated. This system is just not fair that is does not recognize what he is worth.

 

[Dan Roman]

Be pissed off all you want, all you'll get out of it is an ulcer. It's not worth it.

Instead of worrying about what someone else has, just be grateful for what you have. You're probably not with out shelter, food, a smart phone, reliable car, clothes, shoes without holes, etc. Compared to probably 90% of the people on this rock, you're living like a freakin' king.

I don't think he is lacking appreciation of what he has. I think he is simply pointing out some of the many inequities there are in this country.
If you are going to have a discussion about entitlement attitudes, don't forget the " I have mine you don't because you didn't earn it" crowd.
A lot of the higher tax bracket is filled with people that were simply luckier than some and a lot of some of the hardest working, most honest down to earth people are among the lower paid faction of our society.

 

[Quimby]

I don't think he is lacking appreciation of what he has. I think he is simply pointing out some of the many inequities there are in this country.
If you are going to have a discussion about entitlement attitudes, don't forget the " I have mine you don't because you didn't earn it" crowd.
A lot of the higher tax bracket is filled with people that were simply luckier than some and a lot of some of the hardest working, most honest down to earth people are among the lower paid faction of our society.

There will always be inequities. Life's not fair. That's just the way it is. One can accept it, or not.

At some point, we'll all be pushing daisies. No one is the richest man once it comes time to lay in the pine box.