• This site moved from forums.flightinfo.com to flightinfo.com. Please update your bookmarks.

NWA Wants....WHAT?

Deli Guy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Posts
496
Total Time
googol
Hey All,
I wish I knew how to post some of this crazy stuff but it is pretty loco!!! (I do not think our Mesaba buddies need to worry about that AVRO going away! That was shooting blanks.) Anyhow, could someone smarter than me post the proposal so we can discuss it? You NWA haters are going to have a field day!
 

mynameisjim

Don't try this at home
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Posts
842
Total Time
Paycut
All I have is a paper copy at the moment. But I agree with you; we're all in for a treat.
 

Deli Guy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Posts
496
Total Time
googol


Northwest wants more from pilots

Terry Fiedler, Star Tribune September 30, 2005 NWALABOR0930

OAS_AD('Button20');
Northwest Airlines told its pilots union this week that it now wants $358 million in annual cost reductions, 11 percent more than its prior proposal, and an amount that the head of Northwest's pilot union called "extreme."
"In our domestic fleet, [the proposal] would put us below all of our legacy peers, in or out of bankruptcy, and below regional carriers such as Comair," said Capt. Mark McClain, chairman of Northwest's Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). "For what's proposed for people in our domestic fleet, some could make more money driving a truck, and that's not union rhetoric. That's the truth."
Pilots would take base pay cuts of 28.4 percent as part of the new proposal, given to the pilots Tuesday. Northwest has also asked the union to take an additional, temporary 5 percent reduction during the period the company is in bankruptcy.
Northwest is seeking a total pilot staff reduction of 1,290, including the previously disclosed layoff of 400 pilots in the next eight months.
In addition to pilot concessions, Northwest wants $195 million in annual savings from its flight attendants and $190.4 million from ground workers. For the sacrifice, the airline has proposed that all employees would participate in a profit-sharing plan that would pay out 10 percent of all pretax profit, excluding extraordinary items, in excess of $1 million.
Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch confirmed that the company was seeking $358 million in cost savings from pilots, and added that Northwest is offering "a menu of ways that those cost savings can be achieved. The specific combination of ways those cost savings are achieved are the subject of negotiations."
The new round of concessions would come on top of a $265 million cut in December that resulted in a 15 percent pay reduction for pilots. In the past several weeks, Northwest had been asking for $322 million more in cost savings from a 22.3 percent pay cut and pilot job cuts of as many as 1,181. There are about 5,200 active Northwest pilots and more than 500 on furlough. Their current pay range is $35,000 to $208,000 a year.
According to an ALPA memo to members, the company continues to push the use of a separate, lower-cost subsidiary to operate airplanes with 76 to 100 seats, and it contends that it needs the savings from the move to allow it to afford DC-9 replacement aircraft. ALPA continues to resist that idea. The ALPA memo said that "continued outsourcing of our product is not, in our view, the way to economically provide a consistent, high-quality product."
McClain believes that the latest proposal is the company's beginning position in negotiations. "This is all theoretical and speculative until we see a business plan that includes long-term viability. Northwest has not shown us that yet."
A key part of a viable plan would be "charging a ticket price that covers the cost of production," he said. "They have managed for market share and liquidity, not profitability."
McClain said the union has just begun talks with management about the possibility of an "early-out program" for senior pilots that would give them a yet-to-be determined benefit in exchange for leaving the airline.
ALPA expects Northwest to file a motion in bankruptcy court rejecting the current contract that would allow for up to a 51-day period to negotiate a settlement. If one can't be reached, the court will decide what needs to be done, McClain said.
ALPA also believes it has a good chance to be selected by the court as a member of the credit committee for unsecured creditors.
Elections for ALPA officers will be held Oct. 14. McClain declined to comment as to whether he would seek reelection.
Terry Fiedler is at tfiedler@startribune.com.


Sorry I am such a poor paster. I tried to post the PDF file from the union but I must be challenged.
Deli
 

zonker

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2002
Posts
629
Total Time
....
The summary:

Summary
Management values the Sept. 27, 2005 term sheet at a total of an average of $358 million per year in pilot labor cost savings with a reduction in required pilot staffing of 890 pilots, not including the 400 furloughs already announced. That would bring the total staffing reduction to 1,290 pilots (not including the more than 500 pilots currently on layoff).

The annual savings shown in the table on Page 5 is considered “steady state.” Steady state savings are those which are fully recognized after the new contract is in place for a period of time. This number differs from the immediate savings generated by a modification due to the time period required for work rule savings to be fully realized as transition and implementation issues are ironed out and any resulting displacements occur. The smaller, first-year cost savings, when totaled with the steady state annual savings ($361.8 million per year), and averaged over the five year contract, saves $358 million per year in pilot labor costs.

Remember, the dollar savings and staffing reductions above are in addition to our 2004 Bridge Agreement. This means the reductions would occur on top of the $265 million annual savings ($250 million annual savings in management’s view) already agreed to by NWA and ALPA beginning in December 2004.

The staffing reduction of 1,290 pilots is in addition to the over 500 currently furloughed NWA pilots. In other words, under management’s proposal and using its costing numbers, it would take 1,290 fewer active pilots than we currently have to operate this airline at management’s planned level. Based on the July 2005 seniority list this would make seniority number 4123 approximately the most junior pilot on the property with a hire date of Aug. 1996. This is only an estimate and the real impact of these types of changes could vary widely due to retirements, leaves, resignations, accuracy of the staffing impact number and the airline’s level of operations. This does however give you an idea of the magnitude of
management’s proposal and how it would affect pilot staffing.

Company’s Latest Scope Proposal
On July 14, 2005 (and again on Sept. 27, 2005) NWA management approached the Negotiating Committee with a scope proposal which would essentially allow NWA to operate 76-100 seat aircraft under a separate subsidiary of NWA (termed “Newco”) or through outsourcing to another carrier. The proposal included a general statement that pay rates, work rules and benefit levels would be similar to those found at airlines such as Comair, AMR Eagle and Mesaba. Pilots working for this separate subsidiary would not be on the NWA system seniority list, but would be allowed to flow back and forth between the two airlines as needs require. The above costing numbers and staffing impacts do NOT reflect this scope proposal.

Management indicated that absent our agreement to such a proposal it would be impossible for NWA to afford to purchase a DC-9 replacement aircraft. We are somewhat perplexed by this statement, since aircraft in the current Airlink fleet are purchased by NWA and leased to those carriers. Management presented its proposal without any financial justification, back-up data, operating plan or delivery plan. To say that the MEC Negotiating Committee was disappointed and frustrated by this proposal is an understatement. For some time now we have acknowledged the necessity of creating a competitive feed structure for NWA. For more than 18 months we have tried to get management to engage in a meaningful discussion of the small jet issue in a manner that would allow NWA pilots to perform this flying on a competitive basis as a division of NWA and under our pilot contract. NWA has shown little desire to address any of our concerns in this area and has provided no cost justification for its assertions and proposals.

NWA MEC Negotiating Committee 6 Sept. 28, 2005

The Negotiating Committee continues to recognize NWA’s need for cost-effective SJ feed and a cogent 100-seat replacement strategy. However, outsourcing this work to another entity is not the answer. Continued outsourcing of our product is not, in our view, the way to economically provide a consistent, high quality product to our customers. We remain committed to keeping all aircraft 60 seats and greater under the NWA contract and to have them flown by NWA seniority list pilots. An attempt by management to rush this complex issue to completion through the Chapter 11 process may lead to a major confrontation with this pilot group. The MEC Negotiating Committee has requested clarification and justification for management’s “Newco” proposal. We continue to await management’s response to our request for more information and for a complete operational plan. It is impossible to respond in any meaningful way without knowing the timing and specifics of such a SJ feeder operation.

What’s Next?
Communications outlining the bankruptcy process will continue. Since NWA has filed for bankruptcy protection under Chapter 11, the timeline for negotiations is likely to accelerate. So far, NWA management has indicated that it wishes to reach voluntary agreements with labor that will allow it to restructure labor costs. Most likely this will take place under Section 1113(c) of the bankruptcy code. This section provides for a maximum 51-day period (unless extended by agreement of both parties and approved by the judge) from the filing of a motion to reject the contract to a decision by the bankruptcy court judge, effectively defining the period of negotiations once the company files its motion. The goal of the 1113(c) process is to reach new agreements that restructure labor costs in a timely manner. If the process is unsuccessful, the bankruptcy judge can allow management to reject the contract if the statute’s requirements are met, clearing the way for management to impose work rules and benefits it deems necessary to achieve its cost reduction goals and a successful reorganization. If management takes this step, our pilot group will then have to decide how to respond, including any possible exercise of self-help.

The MEC and Negotiating Committee will continue to evaluate whether or not there is a reasonable path that will result in a voluntary agreement that is in the best interests of the NWA pilot group. We will continue to provide you with additional information on the bankruptcy process. A web-based presentation by our bankruptcy counsel Richard Seltzer of Cohen, Weiss and Simon LLP is also available on the MEC website (www.nwaalpa.org/pilots). As events continue to unfold we will provide you with information and analysis as quickly as possible.

Fraternally,
MEC Negotiating Committee
 
Last edited:

On Your Six

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Posts
4,509
Total Time
9,500
Wow! That's a lot of potential pilot furloughs....

Doesn't surprise me that the new CFO at NWA formerly worked at USAirways - he and Siegel walked away from that disaster with $ MILLIONS.... Good luck to everyone involved!
 

AnimalTale

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Posts
543
Total Time
mucho
It is a race to the bottom! What is this profession worth?
 

MsFan

Extraordinary Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Posts
90
Total Time
5200
Let me see if my math is correct . . . 28.4% + 5% (temporary cut while in Ch 11) + 15% (pay cut from 2004 Bridge Agreement) = 48% pay cut from the 2003 payscale? That's pretty sweet. Lay off another 1300 pilots? How can you operate a company with 400+ airplanes with only 4000 pilots? I guess NWA's plan is to dump the 1300 pilots, start up Newco to replace all the DC-9 flying, then hire the 1300 back to work at Newco earning 32 bucks an hour flying EMB-190s. Is that about right?

I know this is only managements "starter" proposal, but if recent Ch11 history is any indicator, they'll get everything they want from the judge if it comes to that. And they know it.

Where (and how) will it ever end.
 

mynameisjim

Don't try this at home
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Posts
842
Total Time
Paycut
MsFan said:
I guess NWA's plan is to dump the 1300 pilots, start up Newco to replace all the DC-9 flying, then hire the 1300 back to work at Newco earning 32 bucks an hour flying EMB-190s. Is that about right?
No that's not quite right, it's worse.

"The above costing numbers and staffing impacts do NOT reflect this scope proposal. "

Meaning the furloughs to outsource NEWCO are in addition to the 1300 planned furloughs and 500 current furloughs.
 

FrozenPilot

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Posts
140
Total Time
2000+
Wow, just wow. My girlfriend's mom saw a lot of this coming and took an early out not too long ago. She was in the purchasing dept. Is there a way to reverse the trend?
 

DAS at 10/250

Coffee, captain?
Joined
Apr 16, 2003
Posts
884
Total Time
3500+
Would supporting your mechanics strike have helped you guys out or did you slice your own throat by sitting on the sidelines?

Good luck though, sounds like NWA is going south.
 

WillowRunVortex

Former Sleepless Knight
Joined
Dec 30, 2004
Posts
352
Total Time
D
NWA Wants....WHAT?

At this point it all depends on where NWA ALPA's true motivation lies. If they have any foresight they will protect jobs. If the "400 club" is steering NWA ALPA's decisions to protect pensions at all cost, any future for junior or prospective mainline flying is history.

As someone else on this board pointed out, if management gets mainline pilot numbers low enough you guys will be the next AMFA in your future contract negotiations.

On another note, the senior Fa's are gonna get a 25% pay cut. The junior Fa's are gonna get 7%. Plus the PFAA will lose about half of their ranks to outsourcing (Asian nationals for $8 bucks an hour with no benefits). <-On this point doesn't an American Flag Carrier have a moral responsibility to the people of the flag it flies under? A junior FA starts out at $16,000. Now she will make 14,880 (before taxes). Who on God's green earth would work that job for $14,880?

Can a person survive on that? Even living like a college student?

Can't a person make like $27,000 full time at McDonalds? Have a schedule and be home every night.
 

castle bravo

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2003
Posts
283
Total Time
10000
WillowRunVortex said:
NWA Wants....WHAT?

" If the "400 club" is steering NWA ALPA's decisions to protect pensions at all cost, any future for junior or prospective mainline flying is history.




The red-book mentality leaders can give away the farm if they want to in order to protect the pensions- long term (maybe even short term) the defined benefit plan is gone no matter what they do. Face it, MSP leadership.
 

flatspin7

TOGA!!!! TOGA!!!
Joined
Apr 15, 2004
Posts
524
Total Time
2 +1
NuGuy said:
Strike and liquidation, it looks like...

Nu
We all saw how fast NWA had scab mechanics in at work... It would not surprise me that they would have no problems finding scab pilots. The same guy willing to go to G o-Jets and the original Freedom Air crew woujld probably have no qualms scabbing at NWA.

Honestly.. NWA probably wants this just like they wanted the Mechanics to walk... they want a work force that flys an A320 for ERJ wages and who would be happy to do it. Unfortunately they will probably do it.

Maybe a bankrupcy judge will show a little spine and stand up for labor for once but some how I doubt it with the current climate and Adminstration
 

Redmeat

People Mover
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Posts
641
Total Time
Ubecha
flatspin7 said:
We all saw how fast NWA had scab mechanics in at work... It would not surprise me that they would have no problems finding scab pilots. The same guy willing to go to G o-Jets and the original Freedom Air crew woujld probably have no qualms scabbing at NWA.

Honestly.. NWA probably wants this just like they wanted the Mechanics to walk... they want a work force that flys an A320 for ERJ wages and who would be happy to do it. Unfortunately they will probably do it.

Maybe a bankrupcy judge will show a little spine and stand up for labor for once but some how I doubt it with the current climate and Adminstration
Do you understand how long it would take to train "scab pilots"?

Get a clue.

The mechanics were being trained LONG before you "saw how fast NWA has scab mechanics in at work..."


Management is simply testing ALPA at this point to see how much they can get away with.
 

AV8700

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Posts
251
Total Time
7000
cut costs, cut costs, cut cost. But wait, don't forget the 20 million we need to pay in bonus money to retain top management.
 

IB6 UB9

I don't Remember
Joined
Oct 2, 2003
Posts
486
Total Time
10000+
So let me get this straight. NWA pilots (not all of them) are denying the jumpseat to B6 guys because of the so-called low wages that we work for, we are undoubtedly bringing down the industry..."eroding the profession" I heard the other day. Now the NWA pilots are being told to expect an astonomical paycut that could take them far below B6 rates. Do the NWA guys/gals (A) accept these rates because "we are in Ch. 11, we have no choice", like the General is about to do, or (B) Walk off the job, practicing what they preach and preserving the profession's integrity when wages and work rules are concerned.

I am curious how this is supposed to play out, you know, from the perspective of one of you NWA guys who said you won't let our kind ride to work with you last week. If the NWA pilot group accepts this slap in the face...is it OK for me to start denying the jumpseat to the average 6-8 NWA employees that commute from Florida to NY on us daily? Let me know how I am supposed to treat you if you show up to work and fly the 320 for a paycheck that is considerably less than mine. Let me know soon...I've got a FLL turn next week.
 
Last edited:

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
IB6 UB9 said:
So let me get this straight. NWA pilots (not all of them) are denying the jumpseat to B6 guys because of the so-called low wages that we work for

...is it OK for me to start denying the jumpseat to the average 6-8 NWA employees that commute from Florida to NY on us daily? Let me know how I am supposed to treat you if you show up to work and fly the 320 for a paycheck that is considerably less than mine. Let me know soon...I've got a FLL turn next week.
If you have a beef, rather than venting here, I suggest that you have your Jumpseat Coordinator (or equivalent representitive of your pilot group) call 1-800-NWA-ALPA. Ask for the contact point for our JS Coordinator. Please provide details such as flight number, departure point and date, name and contact point for your pilot denied boarding, and any other pertinent details.

If these are multiple events, as you seem to allude to, provide those details as well.

Our JS guy is fastidious about following up on things like this. After you hear back, be a sport and post what you found out.

Nu
 

IB6 UB9

I don't Remember
Joined
Oct 2, 2003
Posts
486
Total Time
10000+
NuGuy said:
If you have a beef, rather than venting here, I suggest that you have your Jumpseat Coordinator (or equivalent representitive of your pilot group) call 1-800-NWA-ALPA. Ask for the contact point for our JS Coordinator. Please provide details such as flight number, departure point and date, name and contact point for your pilot denied boarding, and any other pertinent details.

If these are multiple events, as you seem to allude to, provide those details as well.

Our JS guy is fastidious about following up on things like this. After you hear back, be a sport and post what you found out.

Nu
We are a little ahead of you, but I'll be a sport. Here is an email we got the other day from our JS coodinator.

Unfortunately, I feel we have reached an impasse with our jumpseat issues with NWA, in fact we are seeing it deteriorate even further. This does not imply that we will not continue to work toward a solution; it’s just a notice to our pilots that frequent NWA jumpseats for your commute to plan alternatives.

We had three of our pilots denied a jumpseat ride on NWA last week. We reported all three cases to the NWA jumpseat coordinator. The response we received was, “I spoke with ____ regarding his handling of the situation. Sorry, but our Captains have the authority to take or deny anyone they choose. I cannot force them to take anyone but a Fed. Unfortunately, it may get worse as our contract, work rules, and lifestyle degrade.”

I don’t interpret his message as a threat but rather as a matter of fact. Obviously the issues with their contract, work rules, and lifestyle degrade, are not the fault of jetBlue pilots. All we are is a convenient punching bag. The dilemma is that no one with the ability is correcting the miss-information.

For anyone that depends on NWA for your commute you should carry a non-rev pass as a back up. You can obtain a pass authorization by filling out an online form on the Pass Bureau website:

http://Alsohttp://Alsohttp://Alsohttp://Alsohttp://AlsoAlso, please continue to send any reports of jumpseat issues on NWA. Each report is followed up with and is the only avenue we are offered toward a remedy at this point. We’ve been assured that each incident is followed up with the offender. We need: DATE, LOCATION, FLT #, CITY PAIR, and the name of the captain if possible.

As we persist to work on this issues, please continue to welcome all our off line jumpseat riders with our renown hospitality. Any type of retaliation or intimidation would only further deteriorate this situation.


 

IB6 UB9

I don't Remember
Joined
Oct 2, 2003
Posts
486
Total Time
10000+
NuGuy said:
If you have a beef, rather than venting here, I suggest that you have your Jumpseat Coordinator (or equivalent representitive of your pilot group) call 1-800-NWA-ALPA. Ask for the contact point for our JS Coordinator. Please provide details such as flight number, departure point and date, name and contact point for your pilot denied boarding, and any other pertinent details.

If these are multiple events, as you seem to allude to, provide those details as well.

Our JS guy is fastidious about following up on things like this. After you hear back, be a sport and post what you found out.

Nu
You were saying...
 
Top