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NWA Wants....WHAT?
- Thread starter Deli Guy
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Castle Bravo Quote:
My bet is that most of the offenders are MEM, and especially MSP crews. Since many of the DTW people are commuters themselves, it defies logic as to why they would engage in this embarrassing activity.
100% Agree. I really like those guys when I meet them one on one but their "groupthink" is whacked. (I guess you can tell I'm DTW based)
My bet is that most of the offenders are MEM, and especially MSP crews. Since many of the DTW people are commuters themselves, it defies logic as to why they would engage in this embarrassing activity.
100% Agree. I really like those guys when I meet them one on one but their "groupthink" is whacked. (I guess you can tell I'm DTW based)
Deli Guy said:
Deli Guy, how soon we forget. CAL got 1900+ guys to cross over or join their ranks, EAL got over 2200+ pilots to do the same within 6 months, and UAL got similar results within six months. Not suggesting this is likely to happen agai, but don't think it is some how impossible in todays climate. None of these groups were ablse to sustain a profitable operation but they played further havoc with a fairly healthy airline industry as compared to todays airline hulks. I have a pretty good understanding of this debacle as was around in those days and even this very day I am flying with a former CAL Capt. that did not go back. To think this can not happen again is simply fooling yourselves. All you have to do is look at some of the folks who post on this site and you will see what I mean.
Lear70
JAFFO
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Ah yes, how soon we DO forget... Read the bold print above. Any airline that would try that would QUICKLY find themselves in Chapt 7... Too many people to replace in that short a time-span, MOST of the TWA guys are probably nowhere NEAR current and would have to go back through FULL initial (as Deli Guy said, 2 months each PLUS who the h*ll is going to do their OE and on WHAT FLIGHTS?), and the airline is going to be shut down for HOW LONG until they can get at least 800-1000 pilots to do any real schedules?Spooky 1 said:
I believe airline management has learned from those debacles also and wouldn't put themselves in the position to lose their entire airline - I'm betting they'll make it JUST livable enough that NWA ALPA won't have the guts to strike over it and this will all be moot anyway.
BTW, I should have put a
after my first sentence about the crack pipe, it's a quote from Southpark (yeah, I'm a mid-30's married guy who watches Southpark - funny sh*t right there), it wasn't meant to be demeaning, just an expression of "I can't believe he really thinks that". That's part of what Flightinfo is for though, if we didn't have dissenting views we wouldn't have anything to debate.
Last edited:
I don't recall UAL either being in Chapt. 11 or going to Chapt. 7. Don't dismiss this threat as impossible. Desperate airlines will take desperate measures to survive. It might not make any sense, but then again have you seen a lot of intellegent thinking at the majors in the last couple of years. I saw guys at Western Airlines who were flying Capt., that in turn quit Western to take jobs at UAL. Stupid yes, unthinkable, no.
mynameisjim
Don't try this at home
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- Oct 27, 2004
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- 842
All of a sudden we're talking about how NWA will train replacement pilots? What did I miss?
In 60 days, after the pilots and management can't come to an agreement, the bankruptcy will impose the paycuts under 1113c.
The company has to show an immediate need to adjust the contract to maintain solvency, which I think they can do regarding paycuts. I don't believe an immediate change in scope is required to maintain the company, so the judge probably will not impose it.
I'd be willing to bet my job the pilots don't strike (and a strike would surely mean my job, because I am not going to train any scabs).
In 60 days, after the pilots and management can't come to an agreement, the bankruptcy will impose the paycuts under 1113c.
The company has to show an immediate need to adjust the contract to maintain solvency, which I think they can do regarding paycuts. I don't believe an immediate change in scope is required to maintain the company, so the judge probably will not impose it.
I'd be willing to bet my job the pilots don't strike (and a strike would surely mean my job, because I am not going to train any scabs).
RampTower
Ol 366PX, the ditch b!tch
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- Apr 6, 2005
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- 172
Northwest pilot leader expects new contracts by yearend
http://www.dailyitem.com/archive/2005/1002/biz/stories/01biz.htm
By Martin J. Moylan
Knight Ridder Newspapers
ST. PAUL, Minn. — Northwest Airlines and its unions will settle their differences "one way or the other" by the end of the year, forecasts pilot union leader Mark McClain.
"We'll have a successful reorganization — or liquidation," McClain said in a recent interview.
But he said he's confident that Northwest, which is in bankruptcy, and its unions, creditors, vendors and other key parties can devise a successful reorganization plan.
"The only other option is: We go out of business," said McClain.
Soon, he expects, the Eagan, Minn.-based carrier will ask the judge overseeing its Chapter 11 reorganization to set a deadline for reaching giveback deals with its unions.
From its four biggest unions, the airline is looking to extract about $1.2 billion in wage and other labor savings annually. So far, after leaning on those unions for more than two years, Northwest only has pilot givebacks that it values at $250 million. And the airline wants another $358 million from that group.
Typically, the deadline for contract settlements comes no more than 51 days after a company requests it, the union indicated.
And McClain feels that request could come from Northwest any day now. "Nothing beats a deadline like a deadline," he said.
If the Northwest bankruptcy judge sets deadlines for new labor contracts to be reached and new pacts are not negotiated, then the judge can allow management to impose contracts.
But if Northwest tries to force a contract on pilots that they deem unacceptable, they could strike. That would, no doubt, ground Northwest, perhaps permanently.
As it stands now, Northwest is aiming to extract $608 million in annual wage, work rule and other savings from its pilots, up $36 million from its previous target.
Northwest's pitch hasn't changed much from the prior one, which came before it raised its overall target for labor cost savings from all employees from $1.1 billion to $1.4 billion.
The airline is still looking to cut loose about 1,100 of the 5,200 pilots now flying for it. The 400 layoffs announced last week were part of that proposed Northwest target, McClain indicated.
Pay cuts in the latest proposal are up several percentage points to an average of 28 percent. That includes the 15 percent pay cut the pilots agreed to last December.
Pilots, under the Northwest proposal, would earn from about $24,000 to $160,000 a year, McClain said. That would make Northwest pilots among the lowest paid in the industry, he lamented.
"It's a very aggressive proposal," he said. "Senior pilots, with a lot of experience, would be making $50,000, $60,000."
Northwest has yet to reveal its vision for its future, said McClain.
"We don't have their business plan," he said. "We don't know what Northwest management's long-term vision is for the airline. We haven't heard of any decisive changes in its core strengths such as its trans-Pacific service."
Preserving employee pensions will be critical to assuring Northwest's future, said McClain.
If Northwest does not make good on its pension obligations, it will enrage its workers.
"People in Northwest management know that the loss of hard-earned pensions will not lead to a motivated and enthusiastic work force," he said. "That's essential for the airline to be successful."
Prospects are good, McClain believes, for Congress to pass legislation that would give Northwest many more years, perhaps up to 25, to make payments to its pension plans. They're underfunded by $3.8 billion by the company's estimate.
Currently, Northwest is on the hook to pay $800 million into the plans in 2006 and $1.7 billion in 2007.
But Northwest has warned that it doesn't have the money to make such huge payments.
If it doesn't get more time to kick cash into the plans, the airline says it likely would have to terminate the plans, leaving them with the government agency that insures pensions.
Many, perhaps most, employees would not see a reduction in benefits if that happens. But individual pilots could lose tens of thousands of dollars in annual pension payments.
Another hot-button issue for pilots is the outsourcing of flying. They want to maintain as much flying as possible for Northwest pilots and minimize flying farmed out to smaller regional carriers, which typically employ lower-paid pilots.
http://www.dailyitem.com/archive/2005/1002/biz/stories/01biz.htm
By Martin J. Moylan
Knight Ridder Newspapers
ST. PAUL, Minn. — Northwest Airlines and its unions will settle their differences "one way or the other" by the end of the year, forecasts pilot union leader Mark McClain.
"We'll have a successful reorganization — or liquidation," McClain said in a recent interview.
But he said he's confident that Northwest, which is in bankruptcy, and its unions, creditors, vendors and other key parties can devise a successful reorganization plan.
"The only other option is: We go out of business," said McClain.
Soon, he expects, the Eagan, Minn.-based carrier will ask the judge overseeing its Chapter 11 reorganization to set a deadline for reaching giveback deals with its unions.
From its four biggest unions, the airline is looking to extract about $1.2 billion in wage and other labor savings annually. So far, after leaning on those unions for more than two years, Northwest only has pilot givebacks that it values at $250 million. And the airline wants another $358 million from that group.
Typically, the deadline for contract settlements comes no more than 51 days after a company requests it, the union indicated.
And McClain feels that request could come from Northwest any day now. "Nothing beats a deadline like a deadline," he said.
If the Northwest bankruptcy judge sets deadlines for new labor contracts to be reached and new pacts are not negotiated, then the judge can allow management to impose contracts.
But if Northwest tries to force a contract on pilots that they deem unacceptable, they could strike. That would, no doubt, ground Northwest, perhaps permanently.
As it stands now, Northwest is aiming to extract $608 million in annual wage, work rule and other savings from its pilots, up $36 million from its previous target.
Northwest's pitch hasn't changed much from the prior one, which came before it raised its overall target for labor cost savings from all employees from $1.1 billion to $1.4 billion.
The airline is still looking to cut loose about 1,100 of the 5,200 pilots now flying for it. The 400 layoffs announced last week were part of that proposed Northwest target, McClain indicated.
Pay cuts in the latest proposal are up several percentage points to an average of 28 percent. That includes the 15 percent pay cut the pilots agreed to last December.
Pilots, under the Northwest proposal, would earn from about $24,000 to $160,000 a year, McClain said. That would make Northwest pilots among the lowest paid in the industry, he lamented.
"It's a very aggressive proposal," he said. "Senior pilots, with a lot of experience, would be making $50,000, $60,000."
Northwest has yet to reveal its vision for its future, said McClain.
"We don't have their business plan," he said. "We don't know what Northwest management's long-term vision is for the airline. We haven't heard of any decisive changes in its core strengths such as its trans-Pacific service."
Preserving employee pensions will be critical to assuring Northwest's future, said McClain.
If Northwest does not make good on its pension obligations, it will enrage its workers.
"People in Northwest management know that the loss of hard-earned pensions will not lead to a motivated and enthusiastic work force," he said. "That's essential for the airline to be successful."
Prospects are good, McClain believes, for Congress to pass legislation that would give Northwest many more years, perhaps up to 25, to make payments to its pension plans. They're underfunded by $3.8 billion by the company's estimate.
Currently, Northwest is on the hook to pay $800 million into the plans in 2006 and $1.7 billion in 2007.
But Northwest has warned that it doesn't have the money to make such huge payments.
If it doesn't get more time to kick cash into the plans, the airline says it likely would have to terminate the plans, leaving them with the government agency that insures pensions.
Many, perhaps most, employees would not see a reduction in benefits if that happens. But individual pilots could lose tens of thousands of dollars in annual pension payments.
Another hot-button issue for pilots is the outsourcing of flying. They want to maintain as much flying as possible for Northwest pilots and minimize flying farmed out to smaller regional carriers, which typically employ lower-paid pilots.
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
When they do that, the pilots are without a contract and are free to IMMEDIATELY engage in self-help if the cuts are too deep for the MAJORITY of their pilots to live with. It's a double-edged sword, and would force the company to play ball to a certain degree, or it could shut the airline down permanently. That's why we're talking about replacement workers...mynameisjim said:
I think you're limiting yourself on what NWA can convince a judge is needed to survive.
There is a very REAL monetary gain in having Scope release, operating those aircraft at a regional level would allow them to cut operating costs probably 25-30% less than if they were operated by mainline pilots AT the proposed hourly rate (including salaries, 401k, medical insurance, sick leave, vacation, travel bennies) - there's a lot more to operational cost than just salaries, that's why PCL has the lowest unit cost of any regional in the country - work rules, 401k, sick leave and other things are at the bottom of the industry.
I agree, but I'm also willing to bet my job that the airline goes after Scope in 1113c and gets it IF the pilots don't negotiate something with management FIRST.
Quote by Lear 70
There is a very REAL monetary gain in having Scope release, operating those aircraft at a regional level would allow them to cut operating costs probably 25-30% less than if they were operated by mainline pilots AT the proposed hourly rate (including salaries, 401k, medical insurance, sick leave, vacation, travel bennies) - there's a lot more to operational cost than just salaries, that's why PCL has the lowest unit cost of any regional in the country - work rules, 401k, sick leave and other things are at the bottom of the industry.
Hey Lear 70,
I respectfully do not agree with your numbers. The 60+ seat flying could be done at mainline for your numbers when you look at the real numbers. Starting and staffing a new company (NEWCO) would cost billions. Our mechanics (scabs though they be) are cheap. The fa's are going to be cheap. We (pilots) are going to be cheap (401ks, medical, etc will all be looted by mgmt/bk judge) These work rules will include crew cleaing of airplanes etc. If you were to have access to the numbers (which both of us do not) I think you would find the cost negligible with the cost savings being NOT starting a NEWCO.
On top of that, (and this is not a slam--just a fact we both work with)the numbers for pcl/mesaba are subsidized. If you are talking strictly labor, yes, you guys are cheap. We can and are willing to match you at established rates. If you bring in the real operating expenses, you guys are expensive. Duplicating operations is expensive (remember--I advocate merging the lists somehow)
Thats my take.
Deli
There is a very REAL monetary gain in having Scope release, operating those aircraft at a regional level would allow them to cut operating costs probably 25-30% less than if they were operated by mainline pilots AT the proposed hourly rate (including salaries, 401k, medical insurance, sick leave, vacation, travel bennies) - there's a lot more to operational cost than just salaries, that's why PCL has the lowest unit cost of any regional in the country - work rules, 401k, sick leave and other things are at the bottom of the industry.
Hey Lear 70,
I respectfully do not agree with your numbers. The 60+ seat flying could be done at mainline for your numbers when you look at the real numbers. Starting and staffing a new company (NEWCO) would cost billions. Our mechanics (scabs though they be) are cheap. The fa's are going to be cheap. We (pilots) are going to be cheap (401ks, medical, etc will all be looted by mgmt/bk judge) These work rules will include crew cleaing of airplanes etc. If you were to have access to the numbers (which both of us do not) I think you would find the cost negligible with the cost savings being NOT starting a NEWCO.
On top of that, (and this is not a slam--just a fact we both work with)the numbers for pcl/mesaba are subsidized. If you are talking strictly labor, yes, you guys are cheap. We can and are willing to match you at established rates. If you bring in the real operating expenses, you guys are expensive. Duplicating operations is expensive (remember--I advocate merging the lists somehow)
Thats my take.
Deli
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Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
Hey, it's Flightinfo, you're allowed...Deli Guy said:
Oh I agree about Newco, I don't believe the bankruptcy judge will LET mgmt even BEGIN to start up a new company - that kind of capital expenditure just isn't justified when mainline is right there and so are two regional affiliates. No way, no how.
I do have one big question for you: if mainline can operate them just as cheaply as someone else, WHY did BOTH USAirways AND United push so hard for outsourced 70- and 90- seat flying? Why are NWA and DAL intent on the same thing? They know the costs, and given all the airlines trying to accomplish the same thing, I don't believe your perception of the costs involved are accurate.
Simply not true. Our CASM is higher than NWA only because of fewer seats. The operation is indeed subsidized, mainly fuel costs (Pinnacle pays a great portion of the leasing cost of these aircraft back to NWA - don't ask me, doesn't make much sense to me either but it's in every public filing out there).
However, our mechanics are the cheapest, as are the f/a's, dispatchers, schedulers, and all of those positions are SEVERELY understaffed - NO airline in the Continental U.S. staffs as low in EVERY position as WE do. Ask Phil, he brags about it daily. That translates to the lowest unit operating cost anywhere. I don't like it, it makes our lives miserable, but that's the facts of life we live in.
I appreciate you wanting to merge the lists; with fences, I'd love to see that happen also (although I don't believe we'll live to see that), but we will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one, as I've watched intently the moves made by USAirways and UAL and knew it to be just a matter of time until the game played out the SAME WAY over here.
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