NWA wants DOH

[Fly4hire]

Well, based on the latest notes from the arbitration hearings, in the words of Ivan Drago (Rocky III)
"You will lose!

Yes, Ivan, after a bloody knock down, drag out fight you lost and retreated in humiliation.

Good analogy.

We'll settle for a draw, are you capable of it through your hubris?

 

[NuGuy]

Yes, Ivan, after a bloody knock down, drag out fight you lost and retreated in humiliation.

Good analogy.

We'll settle for a draw, are you capable of it through your hubris?

Heyas F4H,

Hehe, old Scope there can't even use analogies correctly. Besides, it was Rocky IV, not III.

Nu

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Heyas nu and fly. My analogies are right in step with the nalpa communications.
Only mine don't include such cool analogies as, "super delux premium awsome, and of course, " fortress.""

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Scope,

You need to chill. It is apparant that you feel that dalpas case is iron clad, so you should have nothing to worry about. However, you come across like someone who is scared ********************less that dalpas case won't hold water and your dream of all widebody capt posistions being RDs in 10 years or so won't come to fruition. Unless you are on the dalpa merger comm. you don't get a say, so you might as well sit back and enjoy the 20-25 day ride we have left..

Heyas nu and fly. My analogies are right in step with the nalpa communications.
Only mine don't include such cool analogies as, "super delux premium awsome, and of course, " fortress.""

 

[Sedona16]

I understand DAL's "Stovepipe" approach but I do not agree with it's application.

On 01/01/2009, pay for the MD-80 will be $72.24 and for the DC-9 $71.73 (for a second year pilot).

So typical of an NWA spinster. You are comparing after merger rates. Of course the 2nd year DC9 FO at $58/hr vs 2nd year MD88 FO (MD 90 pays even more) $69/hr paints a more accurate picture. The guys at NWA are already getting a windfall on pay rates.....dont try to muddy the waters with pay rates fought for and brought up primarily by Delta pilots.

Btw as some others have pointed out Delta will give formerly furloughed guys at NWA years of service from date of hire. Delta pilots negotiated for this and it is a huge gain over Northwests current policy of no credit for time on furlough. Essentially some furloughed NWA guys who not long ago came back will nearly double their pay overnight with the merger.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

That is great for them, and we DALPA made sure that SLI and PWA were separate so that we could not use this arguement.

 

[dtfl]

Well of course NW's opening position is DOH, just like Delta's was to create a ratio that stapled 500 NW pilots to the bottom of the list. These are opening positions. I'm no expert on negotiations, but I would assume both sides start on polar opposites, then end up somewhere in the middle.

Can we all (Delta and NW brothers) recognize this and not let this thread turn into another bloodbath of grenades being lobed back and forth?

Actually...our position wasn't a polar opposite. Our MEC came to the table with that list, that was a move from our polar side towards the middle. Some DAL pilots are upset that we did NOT open with something as radical as your MEC did. Now, bust a blood vessel.

Now if you are back ...a lot of us pilots think the ratio WITHOUT the 500 newhires stapled or something along the lines of rel sen with post 9-11 pilots DOH would be more fair.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NWA's bottom 400 pilots are not stapled and that term is nothing but flame bait. They hold their status quo flying the smallest equipment for the least pay.

Fair = what you have now is what you get after the merger. As they say in Asia, "same, same"

DTFL: Your "DOH for those below me" concept is not the direction taken. It appears Delta's proposal carefully addressed relative seniority and status quo for equipment and bidding from the most senior 747 and 777 Captains down to the most junior pilot. To this point, the negotiators have put effort into all parts of the seniority list.

Despite Bloch's threats, an arbitrated list is the most likely and best outcome IMHO.

 

[clippyrip]

Its a staple and its complete BS, especially considering our upcoming retirements. Otherwise you screw us on SLI and then take our retirements, that is a non starter.

PS
Don't forget to remind us all about your retirements which are 15 to 20 years away(a career away for most).

 

[clippyrip]

NWA's bottom 400 pilots are not stapled and that term is nothing but flame bait. They hold their status quo flying the smallest equipment for the least pay.

Many of our new hires are in the A320 and the 757. This is not the smallest equipment so drop the staple dance it aint going to happen.

 

[Sedona16]

Many of our new hires are in the A320 and the 757. This is not the smallest equipment so drop the staple dance it aint going to happen.

"Many"? Id say more like "some" or a select "few" from the current equipment list I have seen. A Northwest guy overstate something....ive never seen that.

 

[JohnDoe]

NWA's bottom 400 pilots are not stapled and that term is nothing but flame bait. They hold their status quo flying the smallest equipment for the least pay.

Hold their status quo?? I'm sorry, but not all of the bottom 400 guys at NWA are on the "smallest equipment for the least pay."

 

[JohnDoe]

"Many"? Id say more like "some" or a select "few" from the current equipment list I have seen. A Northwest guy overstate something....ive never seen that.

A select few?? Talk about the pot and the kettle with your "overstate something" comment.

When I went to the 320, I initially had more guys junior to me on the bus than the -9 in my base.

 

[General Lee]

A select few?? Talk about the pot and the kettle with your "overstate something" comment.

When I went to the 320, I initially had more guys junior to me on the bus than the -9 in my base.

Well, where are all the DC9 FOs? Your computer model for the SLI had a Jan 1, 2008 fleet snapshot, and it said you had 94 DC9s. How many FOs can fly 94 DC9s? Where could they be? Will some of them fill the 316 787 FO slots your computer model also showed in the fleet snapshot, last January?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

When I went to the 320, I initially had more guys junior to me on the bus than the -9 in my base.

Same for me.fwiw

 

[Superpilot92]

Well, where are all the DC9 FOs? Your computer model for the SLI had a Jan 1, 2008 fleet snapshot, and it said you had 94 DC9s. How many FOs can fly 94 DC9s? Where could they be? Will some of them fill the 316 787 FO slots your computer model also showed in the fleet snapshot, last January?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Since we started hiring we have had alot more pilots retire than we hired. We have shrunk in size ever since we started reducing those aircraft. NWA was understaffed last summer hence the summer meltdown. The reduction in aircraft only helped them actually staff the airline for once.

 

[General Lee]

Since we started hiring we have had alot more pilots retire than we hired. We have shrunk in size ever since we started reducing those aircraft. NWA was understaffed last summer hence the summer meltdown. The reduction in aircraft only helped them actually staff the airline for once.

I understand you, but I was being sarcastic. I read the transcripts from 10-24 and your SLI computer model pilot guy stated that the actual model had figured in 94 DC9s. We all know that is too many. It also figured in 631 787 slots, for a plane that has never flown. Can you see how I can get sarcastic here?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SWA/FO]

Bump.....a walk down memory lane, Notice all the Southwest guys chiming in on the NWA/DAL SLI topic? Looks like NONE.

 

[tankerhead]

Bump +1 for some good stuff. OYS/GL can bump it next.

 

[On Your Six]

I wasn't here during that period, but as others have stated, the SLI process isn't fun. But, can it be orderly afterwards? Some airlines haven't had luck with that, and hard feelings persist. (USAir) But that hasn't been the case at Delta, at least what I have seen. Will it be that way at Southwest? Hopefully it will be civil, but you can't continue to say the AT guys deserve a staple job. I didn't read any of that from this Delta/NW thread. That is the difference.


OYS

 

[RJ Bum]

I got an idea, let's bump every single thread ever on FI and turn it into a SWA/AT thread....

 

[SWA/FO]

but you can't continue to say the AT guys deserve a staple job

We can say what ever we want. :beer:

 

[ultrarunner]

I think an important fact to note is that SWAPA's sole purpose in life is to act in the best interest of a SWAPA member. You don't really have that in ALPA, since, for example, ALPA is representing a "mainline" pilot group at the same time it's representing "regional" pilot groups. In the latter, you have an airline who's sole purpose is to be the lowest bidder in an effort to take flying away from the mainline group. And all represented by the same union. It's a massive conflict-of-interest, IMHO. And that is why pilot unions like SWAPA are the way to go. Pilot union's that feed on both ends will always be at conflict with their members.

SWAPA does what it's members tell it to do. Period, end of story. And that's how it should be.

 

[On Your Six]

We can say what ever we want. :beer:

I hope your lawyers say that to the arbitrators. It will result in something awesome for you. You should attend the hearings yourself and stand up and yell it at them too. Someone bring a camera.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

I think an important fact to note is that SWAPA's sole purpose in life is to act in the best interest of a SWAPA member. You don't really have that in ALPA, since, for example, ALPA is representing a "mainline" pilot group at the same time it's representing "regional" pilot groups. In the latter, you have an airline who's sole purpose is to be the lowest bidder in an effort to take flying away from the mainline group. And all represented by the same union. It's a massive conflict-of-interest, IMHO. And that is why pilot unions like SWAPA are the way to go. Pilot union's that feed on both ends will always be at conflict with their members.

SWAPA does what it's members tell it to do. Period, end of story. And that's how it should be.

Anyone can expect their own union to fight for them. ALPA will fight for the Airtran pilots too. But, the arbitrators are smart enough to understand what is going on, and this isn't new for them either.


OYS

 

[SWA/FO]

I hope your lawyers say that to the arbitrators. It will result in something awesome for you. You should attend the hearings yourself and stand up and yell it at them too. Someone bring a camera.

Why don't you show up and help our process thru? My guess, is a ONE LUV style beatdown. (meaning The Trannys/Southwest guys would tag team with a SDF style beatdown on your mellon) We don't need your help OY6.

 

[rigger]

Heck i think the best best model ever used was the American Twa model ALPA worked real hard on that and Everyone (at one airline) was very happy....it worked so well before, and has a proven track record.....it could work for SW and Airtran as well as Delta And NW.....problem solved for everyone!!!

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Can we all agree that pilots are pilots. Greedy bastards that only think fair is what benefits them the most. We (NWA) thought doh was the way to go with delter. With usair, we would have been preaching relative seniority. In most cases, unless one side caves or both move to a middle ground (highly unlikely, see greedy bastard above) a neutral arbitraitor will be needed.

 

[JohnQ]

Can we all agree that pilots are pilots. Greedy bastards that only think fair is what benefits them the most. We (NWA) thought doh was the way to go with delter. With usair, we would have been preaching relative seniority. In most cases, unless one side caves or both move to a middle ground (highly unlikely, see greedy bastard above) a neutral arbitraitor will be needed.

Correcto. The DAL/NWA method is, as far as I'm concerned, the only way any seniority list should ever be integrated: a 3-person panel, both sides present their cases, and the panel makes its binding decision. I don't even know why ALPA has merger committee negotiations as part of the process. We all know that given the nature of pilots, that two sides could never come up with an agreement on their own. We might as well streamline the entire merger process and cut to the chase with arbitration, at least regarding SLI integration.

 

[ultrarunner]

... We might as well streamline the entire merger process and cut to the chase with arbitration, at least regarding SLI integration.

And what's that gonna get you? How many years are we since the AWA/USAir Nic award?

That abortion set the precedence that binding is not "really" binding, right?