NWA wants DOH

[GogglesPisano]

The jist of a dynamic list is that each side moves up as their retirements happen. I personally don't like the idea. Ultimately, NWA pilots should be given a credit for our up coming retirements or the Delta pilots should not be given much credit for their current positions which is a reflection of their retirements. In my humble opinion its a wash but you will never get a Delta pilot to agree. They got their retirements, want credit for their current positions and then want our retirements. Pure BS.

What happens when Delta retirements peak 15 years from now, after the NWA retirements come to a screaching halt?

 

[clippyrip]

15 to 20 years away. hahahahaha. What then you ask....almost 65-75% of our list will be gone, do you think we would want to compromise SLI for something a career away, that most wont even see? I don't think so.

 

[Schwanker]

What happens when Delta retirements peak 15 years from now, after the NWA retirements come to a screaching halt?

To sum it up, number 5000 on the NWA seniority list would be between 2500-3000 in 10 years.

Number 7000 on the DAL list would be, well, approx number 7000 in 10 years.

A dynamic list would allow NWA pilots to move up with NWA attrition and DAL pilots advance with DAL attrition. Both sides would get credit for their retirements.

 

[dragon]

To sum it up, number 5000 on the NWA seniority list would be between 2500-3000 in 10 years.

Number 7000 on the DAL list would be, well, approx number 7000 in 10 years.

A dynamic list would allow NWA pilots to move up with NWA attrition and DAL pilots advance with DAL attrition. Both sides would get credit for their retirements.

By doing it this way, wouldn’t we be creating two separate lists? Basically repeating the failed history of the red book/green book issue that so divided NWA for 20+ years.

The only way we ever truly merge is to become one “global” airline. I’m sure after the arbitrators get done, we’ll all be ticked off, but I’d rather be mad at them than fellow pilots.

 

[Noserider76]

A dynamic list would allow NWA pilots to move up with NWA attrition and DAL pilots advance with DAL attrition. Both sides would get credit for their retirements.

A system like that would have to have you moving up on the fleet you bring to the merger as your retirements come in and DL guys moving on the fleet we bring.

Almost everyone here is happy with what we have now and wants to keep it as close to status quo as possible. We don't want your retirements on your equipment. We want to keep flying and upgrading as scheduled on our equipment. The problem, as you know, comes when new equipment comes on board and your plan would take it back to a red book/green book/blue book scenario.

It's going to be painful for me as a senior wide body FO to see NW guys flood in front of me for my left seat upgrade but in the long run a single seniority list is probably the best solution. By the way were you a tweet or 38 Faip?

 

[retired guy]

[A dynamic list would allow NWA pilots to move up with NWA attrition and DAL pilots advance with DAL attrition. Both sides would get credit for their retirements.[/quote]



Ain`t gonna happen.

 

[Schwanker]

A system like that would have to have you moving up on the fleet you bring to the merger as your retirements come in and DL guys moving on the fleet we bring.

Not really. Say if the list were relative, NWA and DAL positions would stay static. You would move up to a pre-merger NWA/DAL position as attrition occurs. You bid what ever your seniority holds. Senior DAL guys could bid on the 60+ pre-merger NWA 747s/A330s and senior NWA guys could bid on the 10 pre-merger 777s DAL brings.

With a system set up as such, NWA and DAL continue to hold the same relative percentage continuously. ie... if DAL brings 70 of the top 120 positions and NWA brings 50 of the top 120 positions, it continues to stay this way indefinately (or until the entire pre-merger list retires).

Example:
Current DAL guys always hold positions 1,3,4,6,8,10,12....
Current NWA guys always hold positions
2,5,7,8,11.....

Schwanker

edit: This would actually enable a lot higher percentage of DAL guys to fly 747/777/330 gauge aircraft.

 

[Noserider76]

Not really. Say if the list were relative, NWA and DAL positions would stay static. You would move up to a pre-merger NWA/DAL position as attrition occurs. You bid what ever your seniority holds. Senior DAL guys could bid on the 60+ pre-merger NWA 747s/A330s and senior NWA guys could bid on the 10 pre-merger 777s DAL brings.

With a system set up as such, NWA and DAL continue to hold the same relative percentage continuously. ie... if DAL brings 70 of the top 120 positions and NWA brings 50 of the top 120 positions, it continues to stay this way indefinately (or until the entire pre-merger list retires).

Example:
Current DAL guys always hold positions 1,3,4,6,8,10,12....
Current NWA guys always hold positions
2,5,7,8,11.....

Schwanker

edit: This would actually enable a lot higher percentage of DAL guys to fly 747/777/330 gauge aircraft.

We get to move up to our pre-merger positions as your guys retire? Oh boy! Yippee!

What it leaves out is that your 60 something 747s and A-330s won't make much of an impact on the average pilot here. Many of those (747-2s) will be gone before it matters. The bulk of the DL fleet is the 101 767s and 137 757s. This fleet gives the current DL guy access to a much larger number of higher paying aircraft and much higher career earnings that come with it. Widebody pay is not an end of career goal here. It's a reality for almost anyone thats cares to bid it. DL brings over 70% of the widebody flying to this merger, not even counting the much greater numbers of 757s.

We've also retired our 100-120 seat aircaft and are not really interested in participating while yours are retired. You can't really, in my opinion fully take advantage of your retirements without fully bearing the brunt of your -9 retirements. It's an either/or proposition. I think most here would be very happy with a fence right down the middle of current aircraft but that's not going to happen.

We'll never agree what is fair so it's pointless to try and the reason it's in arbitration.

 

[DTW320]

Widebody pay is not an end of career goal here. It's a reality for almost anyone thats cares to bid it. DL brings over 70% of the widebody flying to this merger, not even counting the much greater numbers of 757s.

That's hilarious. Not even counting your 757's, 45% of your aircraft are narrowbody. So, the pilots that fly almost half your fleet must simply not care to bid widebody. Cool DAL math there......reminds me of your SLI math.

We've also retired our 100-120 seat aircaft

Well, I guess your right....the 737-700 has 124 seats....one less than our DC-9-50's

You can't really, in my opinion fully take advantage of your retirements without fully bearing the brunt of your -9 retirements.

What -9 retirements? As has been mentioned here before, rumor has it that they aren't going anywhere with oil falling and the "don't laugh, it's paid for" bumper stickers.

 

[Noserider76]

That's hilarious. Not even counting your 757's, 45% of your aircraft are narrowbody. So, the pilots that fly almost half your fleet must simply not care to bid widebody. Cool DAL math there......reminds me of your SLI math.

Hilarious to you, but absolutely true.

Well, I guess your right....the 737-700 has 124 seats....one less than our DC-9-50's

You would equate a brand new aircraft with 10X the operational performance to an aircraft any sane person knows is on it's last legs. The 10 737-700s are equivalent to the 737-800 in pay. The DC-9-40/50s are equivalent to well... the DC-9-30. Probably the main difference between us: I never had a dream to fly a 747 (where have I heard that before), 777, 787, or any airliner. It's all about the paycheck for me.

 

[DTW320]

The 10 737-700s are equivalent to the 737-800 in pay. The DC-9-40/50s are equivalent to well... the DC-9-30. Probably the main difference between us: I never had a dream to fly a 747 (where have I heard that before), 777, 787, or any airliner. It's all about the paycheck for me.

Hilarious to you, but absolutely true.

Alrighty then...."absolutely true" that every pilot flying a non 757 narrowbody at DAL is there because they CHOSE not to bid a widebody position that was available....GOT IT!

 

[Noserider76]

Alrighty then...."absolutely true" that every pilot flying a non 757 narrowbody at DAL is there because they CHOSE not to bid a widebody position that was available....GOT IT!

I think my original post said "almost anyone that cares to bid it". Hey, I like to argue as much as the next guy but this sheet's pointless. I stated my opinion. You are free to disagree with it. As I said we're never going to convince each other of what's fair.

 

[Heavy Set]

To sum it up, number 5000 on the NWA seniority list would be between 2500-3000 in 10 years.

Number 7000 on the DAL list would be, well, approx number 7000 in 10 years.

A dynamic list would allow NWA pilots to move up with NWA attrition and DAL pilots advance with DAL attrition. Both sides would get credit for their retirements.

Did the guys at USAir get a dynamic list? I don't think so.

 

[Heavy Set]

That's hilarious. Not even counting your 757's, 45% of your aircraft are narrowbody. So, the pilots that fly almost half your fleet must simply not care to bid widebody. Cool DAL math there......reminds me of your SLI math.
Well, I guess your right....the 737-700 has 124 seats....one less than our DC-9-50's

What -9 retirements? As has been mentioned here before, rumor has it that they aren't going anywhere with oil falling and the "don't laugh, it's paid for" bumper stickers.

Does your A319 pay the same as your A320? Sounds a lot like the 737-700 and 737-800, along with the 757 and 767 analogy. And, I don't think all of the Delta bases have "all super premium" widebody flying. If someone wants to be at a particular base, they probably can't hold the widebody. I have friends in SLC and they said that 757/767 category at that base is very senior. Face it, you have smaller planes, at fewer bases, that pay less. You can't dance around arguments that are obvious. Your airline doesn't have the pay potential that Delta brings to the table.

 

[Schwanker]

The 10 737-700s are equivalent to the 737-800 in pay.

How many 73-700s do you have on property? And when were they delivered? Before or after constructive notification?

Thanks for the answers.
Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

Did the guys at USAir get a dynamic list? I don't think so.

No they didn't. And come to think of it, they were the worse of the two merged companies financially--kind of like DAL. Do you think DAL is coming to the rescue of NWA like AWA did for USAir? I didn't think so!

 

[JohnQ]

Alrighty then...."absolutely true" that every pilot flying a non 757 narrowbody at DAL is there because they CHOSE not to bid a widebody position that was available....GOT IT!

Considering the fact that we have new hires flying the 767ER out of NYC...that is EXACTLY correct.

Now here is what we see from the NWA side:

1. We want "credit" for our upcoming retirements, even though the vast majority of the DAL early retirees (who supposedly gave us all a big "windfall") would have reached Age 60 PRIOR TO the rule changing to Age 65.

2. We want to keep our pensions.

3. We want to bid into your widebody flying, into your superior bases (really, for every DAL guy who can't wait to bid DTW or MSP, is there any doubt whatsover that there are probably 15-20 NWA guys salivating over ATL, SLC, and LAX?), while at the same time blocking you all off from flying any of ours.

4. And thanks for the pay raises, DC plan, superior work rules, and superior staffing formulas. Thanks for crafting a JPWA that gives the NWA side 75% of the entire contract value to get us up to your financial standards. We'll happily take that--and everything else.

5. Of course we won't be reasonable at the negotiating table. Coming to agreements is for losers. Sticking fingers in ears, screaming "la la la la la, now let's just go to arbitration" is just the NWA way.

6. After all, 26 arbitrated decisions out of 26 sets of post 1986-merger negotiations must mean something, right?

Have I missed anything?

 

[Noserider76]

How many 73-700s do you have on property? And when were they delivered? Before or after constructive notification?

Thanks for the answers.
Schwanker

Delivered? Delivered? You're really reaching. Not sure what any of this has to do with the 737-700 paying 737-800 rates but the 10 737-700s were ordered in Dec 2006 along with some 777LRs as part of the deal that had DL sell 38 737-800 delivery slots. 7 are supposed to be on property this year/3 next but there were some delayed by the strike. I think there are 4 here now.

 

[Schwanker]

Delivered? Delivered? You're really reaching. Not sure what any of this has to do with the 737-700 paying 737-800 rates but the 10 737-700s were ordered in Dec 2006 along with some 777LRs as part of the deal that had DL sell 38 737-800 delivery slots. 7 are supposed to be on property this year/3 next but there were some delayed by the strike. I think there are 4 here now.

Thanks. The only reason I asked is some DAL folks apply a different standard to NWA aircraft/orders. I just didn't think there were 10 on property (I thought 2 were recently delivered). Have a good one.
Schwanker

 

[Sedona16]

Well said!

Considering the fact that we have new hires flying the 767ER out of NYC...that is EXACTLY correct.

Now here is what we see from the NWA side:

1. We want "credit" for our upcoming retirements, even though the vast majority of the DAL early retirees (who supposedly gave us all a big "windfall") would have reached Age 60 PRIOR TO the rule changing to Age 65.

2. We want to keep our pensions.

3. We want to bid into your widebody flying, into your superior bases (really, for every DAL guy who can't wait to bid DTW or MSP, is there any doubt whatsover that there are probably 15-20 NWA guys salivating over ATL, SLC, and LAX?), while at the same time blocking you all off from flying any of ours.

4. And thanks for the pay raises, DC plan, superior work rules, and superior staffing formulas. Thanks for crafting a JPWA that gives the NWA side 75% of the entire contract value to get us up to your financial standards. We'll happily take that--and everything else.

5. Of course we won't be reasonable at the negotiating table. Coming to agreements is for losers. Sticking fingers in ears, screaming "la la la la la, now let's just go to arbitration" is just the NWA way.

6. After all, 26 arbitrated decisions out of 26 sets of post 1986-merger negotiations must mean something, right?

Have I missed anything?

 

[Steeler Fan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCsDdIWvx3o

 

[Noserider76]

Thanks. The only reason I asked is some DAL folks apply a different standard to NWA aircraft/orders. I just didn't think there were 10 on property (I thought 2 were recently delivered). Have a good one.
Schwanker

Don't get me wrong because I throw out a few arguments. It's two very, very good companies being put together here. I have pretty much considered us one big pilot group since the merger was announced. It's unfortunate that our groups have to haggle over this stuff but it's necessary I guess. I'm hoping when it's over we have all compromised a little and can lick our wounds and move on to a more stable, lucrative career. Take care.

 

[pipe]

Don't get me wrong because I throw out a few arguments. It's two very, very good companies being put together here. I have pretty much considered us one big pilot group since the merger was announced. It's unfortunate that our groups have to haggle over this stuff but it's necessary I guess. I'm hoping when it's over we have all compromised a little and can lick our wounds and move on to a more stable, lucrative career. Take care.

What career would that be? Many of us are looking for just such a career.

PIPE

 

[Schwanker]

Don't get me wrong because I throw out a few arguments. It's two very, very good companies being put together here. I have pretty much considered us one big pilot group since the merger was announced. It's unfortunate that our groups have to haggle over this stuff but it's necessary I guess. I'm hoping when it's over we have all compromised a little and can lick our wounds and move on to a more stable, lucrative career. Take care.

I'll drink to that (and a few other things)!!
Cheers,
Schwanker

 

[JohnQ]

I'll drink to that (and a few other things)!!
Cheers,
Schwanker

And despite my earlier post, I'll drink to that as well. Ultimately we will get through this SLI (with grumbling from both sides, no doubt) and hopefully move forward as one great pilot group and one great airline.

 

[800Dog]

Don't get me wrong because I throw out a few arguments. It's two very, very good companies being put together here. I have pretty much considered us one big pilot group since the merger was announced. It's unfortunate that our groups have to haggle over this stuff but it's necessary I guess. I'm hoping when it's over we have all compromised a little and can lick our wounds and move on to a more stable, lucrative career. Take care.

Very very good companies post consistent profits. It is two poor companies being put together. Lets be honest!

 

[Full of LUV]

Sounds pathetic

Very very good companies post consistent profits. It is two poor companies being put together. Lets be honest!

In my mind, there is nothing more pathetic than for someone to work for a company or organization who they are ashamed of or have disdain for. If you are looking for an airline that consistently makes a profit, then you have basically one choice in the us, SWA. If that is all you can be proud of, then apply and be happy. The rest of the industry is in a constant expansion as fast as possible during good times and contraction during bad times. Only problem is the contractions are more expensive then the profits from the expansions. Anyway, I don't know whether the largest airline in the world (combined DAL) will be able to make a profit or not, but I don't think they will fundementally change the business plan that all hub and spoke carriers have followed since the invention of the airplane.

 

[DTW320]

Considering the fact that we have new hires flying the 767ER out of NYC...that is EXACTLY correct. Wow. Captain's too? Remember, all DAL narrowbody pilots could be widebody pilots....I heard it here. And, since according to you guys, DAL widebodies are the junior airplanes (every narrowbody pilot could hold it but chooses not to), what does that say about the desirability/weight/significance of those positions?

Now here is what we see from the NWA side:

1. We want "credit" for our upcoming retirements, even though the vast majority of the DAL early retirees (who supposedly gave us all a big "windfall") would have reached Age 60 PRIOR TO the rule changing to Age 65. So, DAL pilots should get the movement when NWA pilots retire?

2. We want to keep our pensions. "We" (including "you") have no say in that whatsoever. The pension cannot be terminated outside of another BK unless DAL chooses to fully fund it. I LOVE how you guys assert that keeping the pension is some kind of NWALPA "demand". Your gross ignorance of pension law is showing.

3. We want to bid into your widebody flying, into your superior bases (really, for every DAL guy who can't wait to bid DTW or MSP, is there any doubt whatsover that there are probably 15-20 NWA guys salivating over ATL, SLC, and LAX?)oh yeah, the "superior bases" argument again...you forgot to tell us how "superior" JFK is, along with the cost of living in southern Cali, while at the same time blocking you all off from flying any of ours.How have we proposed "blocking" you from flying our widebodies? As for bases, that will take care of itself....look for 767 bases in some places "less superior" than your current ones.

4. And thanks for the pay raises, DC plan, superior work rules, and superior staffing formulas. Thanks for crafting a JPWA that gives the NWA side 75% of the entire contract value to get us up to your financial standards. We'll happily take that--and everything else. First, it was a JOINT PWA. Sorry, the old argument that you guys graciously brought us up to your standards doesn't fly...unless your one of the many DAL pilots who believes that there should be a NWA B-Scale(besides the one that DOES exist in the JPWA for several years regarding the DC plan for NWA pilots) Do we really need to get out the list of things NWA pilots are losing in the JPWA again? Besides, again, seniority is forever, contract gains are temporary, or are you too new to this industry to know that?

5. Of course we won't be reasonable at the negotiating table. Coming to agreements is for losers. Sticking fingers in ears, screaming "la la la la la, now let's just go to arbitration" is just the NWA way. We were very close to an agreement before. DALPA retreated substantially from previously agreed to positions when it came time to present to the arbitrators.

6. After all, 26 arbitrated decisions out of 26 sets of post 1986-merger negotiations must mean something, right?DAL never had any arbitrations post-merger in the past? Western? Pan-Am? No, of course not...

Have I missed anything?

Um...yeah. How bout giving some proof that the DC-9 fleet (not including the -88 fleet) is going away and should justify the staple job you are proposing.

 

[JohnQ]

Um...yeah. How bout giving some proof that the DC-9 fleet (not including the -88 fleet) is going away and should justify the staple job you are proposing.

I have never advocated a "staple" job for the NWA guys. Some form of DOH for all post 9-11 hires (where we have had some sort of similar hiring patterns) along with a short-term protective fence for the DAL guys not to be furloughed if/when the DC-9s go away (and conversely, a similar thing for the NWA side should the -88s go first), coupled with a relative seniority formula for the rest of the list, seems like the most fair way to go.

And no, we never have had to go to arbitration for at least THREE mergers/acquisitions: Northeast in the early 70s, Western in 87, and some of PanAm in 91. And despite the inevitable grumbling, I have rarely heard any former Western/Pan Am guy mention their prior airline and status as anything more than an interesting conversational piece--nothing remotely like the hostile red/green nonsense that the "blue" guys have had to endure for decades. Now why must it always be that way at NWA?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Oh where to start with dtw320???

Wow. Captain's too? Remember, all DAL narrowbody pilots could be widebody pilots....That's because Delta has 2x's as many wide bodies as NW has. Now I know you guys don't consider them "super duper awsome wide body, but seeing as how your guys performed in the first round of hearings, whatever adjectives they can use to help their cause......I heard it here. And, since according to you guys, DAL widebodies are the junior airplanes (every narrowbody pilot could hold it but chooses not to), what does that say about the desirability/weight/significance of those positions? It says that Delta has more wide bodies than NW has. Also they are not "THE" junior airplane, but do go junior, much like you cupcake.

So, DAL pilots should get the movement when NWA pilots retire?I keep hearing a lot about NW retirements. I guess a little fact known as the "age 65 rule surpasses your thought of thinking? Not surprising!

"We" (including "you") have no say in that whatsoever. The pension cannot be terminated outside of another BK unless DAL chooses to fully fund it. I LOVE how you guys assert that keeping the pension is some kind of NWALPA "demand". Your gross ignorance of pension law is showing.
And your ignorance of your own unions business is laughable!

oh yeah, the "superior bases" argument again...you forgot to tell us how "superior" JFK is, along with the cost of living in southern Cali,Cupcake. The superior bases, I'm sorry, your own unions words, "fortress hubs," is more adjectives from the (insert your favorite adjective here) NWA MEC! I gues also that a little know n fact that JFK is the largest international departure airport for the US. But then again its not a "fortress hub" in shining DTW or MSP. BTW, how much negative growth has Detroit had lately?
How have we proposed "blocking" you from flying our widebodies? As for bases, that will take care of itself....look for 767 bases in some places "less superior" than your current ones.The same could be said for the A330 and the 744, you know, those super duper premium double cool wide bodies?

First, it was a JOINT PWA. Sorry, the old argument that you guys graciously brought us up to your standards doesn't fly...I guess that you could have stayed on that lower pay scale and been alright with it then?unless your one of the many DAL pilots who believes that there should be a NWA B-Scale(besides the one that DOES exist in the JPWA for several years regarding the DC plan for NWA pilots) Do we really need to get out the list of things NWA pilots are losing in the JPWA again? :laugh: A junior pilot with a sense of humor. Good one!Besides, again, seniority is forever, contract gains are temporary, or are you too new to this industry to know that?He's probably more senior than you are, but then again based on your nervous tone its quite obvious you're a FNG!

We were very close to an agreement before. DALPA retreated substantially from previously agreed to positions when it came time to present to the arbitrators.:laugh: Was that before of after the NWA MEC was on vacation in mexico and cost you girls a lot of money?

DAL never had any arbitrations post-merger in the past? Western? Pan-Am? No, of course not...Not 26 of them cup cake. Your track record stinks! Your mec doesn't know how to negotiate. Its just a lot easier to go to arbitration and argue later that they "gave it their best shot."


Um...yeah. How bout giving some proof that the DC-9 fleet (not including the -88 fleet) is going away and should justify the staple job you are proposing.Because it was stated by YOUR CEO!
You are pathetic

Bye Bye cupcake!