NWA Update

[320AV8R]

Beetle - where did you get your info on the sale of Newco? If this is the case, any chance of recall can be forgot by all. Sounds very similur to the piecing of Pam Am in the 80's! Time to move on and NOT look back!

253611 2/02

The present NWA CFO is Neil Cohen....he came from USAir, where he started MidAtlantic. He used to work at NWA years ago also.

ALPA and Mgmt are scheduled to continue their NEWCO negotiations this week. The Company wants it to be a spin-off operation, (i.e. Pinnacle, etc). ALPA wants it to be totally in-house, flown by NW pilots. They also want a flow-up agreement with Pinnacle & Mesaba. The whole idea is still being negotiated....it isn't even a reality yet, much less "sold".

SCOPE is the number one issue. If a consenual agreement between ALPA & NWA can't be reached, the Judge will rule. If that ruling includes the outsourcing of all 100 seat flying & below, there's a reeeeeal good chance ALPA will engage in self-help.

320AV8R

 

[TinGoose1]

I'm telling you guys that NEWCO only creates more competition at the regional level. Do you honestly think that the 9E and XJ guys are going to be your friends after you jump back into their back yard? The regionals live of the table scraps right now, and your negotiating a third feeder. Have you guys been beaten so bad that your going to give up your chair at the table and fight for the scraps. Grow a spine folks and tell management to go take a hike.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I'm telling you guys that NEWCO only creates more competition at the regional level. Do you honestly think that the 9E and XJ guys are going to be your friends after you jump back into their back yard? The regionals live of the table scraps right now, and your negotiating a third feeder. Have you guys been beaten so bad that your going to give up your chair at the table and fight for the scraps. Grow a spine folks and tell management to go take a hike.

If we have a unifed list, it doesn't matter who comes in, they will be NWA pilots. I know XJ/PNCL have a lot to lose if this happens, however, it will work out to their benefit. I would hate to think what would happen to you guys if we don't get a unified list. Mesaba is already on the chopping block, even though they are currently working on a contract with another airline.

 

[xjcaptain]

It's amazing to me (no not really...) that now when times are tough at big brother, all we hear abut is a unified list, flow up's (they forget to mention flow backs) etc. Prior to 911 when we were attempting to negotiate a flow through we were looked at like we were the red-headed step child and they basically sneered at us. I hope that NWA doesn't think that our memories are that short. Keep in mind that many of us at XJ are in the 10 - 20 year range on the senority list, so flowing up into another bankrupt airline on the bottom of their senority list may not look all that appealing. What would the advantage be now? Retirement? Compensation? Quality of life? Unless things turn around in a big way at NWA don't be so sure that we even want to be a part of mainlines list.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's amazing to me (no not really...) that now when times are tough at big brother, all we hear abut is a unified list, flow up's (they forget to mention flow backs) etc. Prior to 911 when we were attempting to negotiate a flow through we were looked at like we were the red-headed step child and they basically sneered at us. I hope that NWA doesn't think that our memories are that short. Keep in mind that many of us at XJ are in the 10 - 20 year range on the senority list, so flowing up into another bankrupt airline on the bottom of their senority list may not look all that appealing. What would the advantage be now? Retirement? Compensation? Quality of life? Unless things turn around in a big way at NWA don't be so sure that we even want to be a part of mainlines list.

What if someone can bid lower than XJ. Remember that MAIR cash cow you guys got; Paul Foley makes more money than Dougie. I understand that a lot of guys have realized they are career at XJ. You would be even worse off if that flowthrough program was actually instated years ago. You have to unify the list when the thing hits rock bottom. Would it be tolerable if the list was based on DOH for everyone?

 

[320AV8R]

I'm telling you guys that NEWCO only creates more competition at the regional level. Do you honestly think that the 9E and XJ guys are going to be your friends after you jump back into their back yard?
The regionals live of the table scraps right now, and your negotiating a third feeder. Have you guys been beaten so bad that your going to give up your chair at the table and fight for the scraps. Grow a spine folks and tell management to go take a hike.

Yo Goose-

Reread my post.

It's a F#*&! strike issue.

WE DON'T WANT A 3rd or 4th or 5th feeder. We are negotiating for the NEWCO flying to be done by mainline.....and AVROs with 85 seats. If we get our a$$ handed to us........we'll walk. The line in the sand has been drawn.

QUESTIONS ?!!

320AV8R

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Yo Goose-

Reread my post.

It's a F#*&! strike issue.

WE DON'T WANT A 3rd or 4th or 5th feeder. We are negotiating for the NEWCO flying to be done by mainline.....and AVROs with 85 seats. If we get our a$$ handed to us........we'll walk. The line in the sand has been drawn.

QUESTIONS ?!!

320AV8R

What about the 70 seaters that XJ is likely to get, they can't be operating 2 crjs for nothing.

 

[FreezinginMN]

ALPA wants it to be totally in-house, flown by NW pilots. They also want a flow-up agreement with Pinnacle & Mesaba. The whole idea is still being negotiated....it isn't even a reality yet, much less "sold".

SCOPE is the number one issue. If a consenual agreement between ALPA & NWA can't be reached, the Judge will rule. If that ruling includes the outsourcing of all 100 seat flying & below, there's a reeeeeal good chance ALPA will engage in self-help.
320AV8R

320AV8R- I agree with you, but dont forget to incude Champion. They are also part of the flow up proposal. Also, the Judge "can't" rule on a contract. They can only deny the company's request to "reject" the pilot's contract or approve the company's request to "reject" the pilots contract. This would be similar to what is happening with AMFA. The company can impose ANY conditions and the pilots could engage in self-help. The pilots would not have any contract. Of course, laws are subject to interpretation and some people think a judge can stop a strike. I am not one of those people.

 

[AnimalTale]

It's amazing to me (no not really...) that now when times are tough at big brother, all we hear abut is a unified list, flow up's (they forget to mention flow backs) etc. Prior to 911 when we were attempting to negotiate a flow through we were looked at like we were the red-headed step child and they basically sneered at us. I hope that NWA doesn't think that our memories are that short. Keep in mind that many of us at XJ are in the 10 - 20 year range on the senority list, so flowing up into another bankrupt airline on the bottom of their senority list may not look all that appealing. What would the advantage be now? Retirement? Compensation? Quality of life? Unless things turn around in a big way at NWA don't be so sure that we even want to be a part of mainlines list.

Not to start a flame!, but its amazing that you dont realize you have a job and a high seniority number BECAUSE of NWA . Without NWA, Mesaba would be nothing. Mesaba and PCL are Feeders for NWA, thats it.
You should pray to GOD, things go well for your Northwest Brothers.

Again, just an observation....I could be wrong and ill apologize in advance..

Cya

 

[castle bravo]

If we get our a$$ handed to us........we'll walk. The line in the sand has been drawn.



320-
Curious, but how many Red Book guys are in agreement with this?

 

[320AV8R]

320-
Curious, but how many Red Book guys are in agreement with this?

CB-

The handfull of RB pilots I know support it. What's more important, however, is the position of the MEC. All the information, (via ALPA e-mails, ALPA meetings, direct conversation with Reps, etc...), points in this direction also.

320AV8R

 

[TinGoose1]

320-

I don't care either way, I'm not in the red tail family. I do however care that even by discussing creating a NEWCO your setting a dangerous example for other carriers to follow. I believe you said in the same paragraph that you didn't want to start another feeder, but then went on to say that only NWA pilots would fly for NEWCO. How is this not creating another feeder? Are the NWA pilots who fly for NEWCO going to make NWA wages or are they going to fly for regional pay rates? If your flying for regional pay rates, your a regional airline. The line in the sand should be that those airplanes be flown on the NWA property, not the NEWCO property. If your drawing the line in the sand for only NWA pilots fly for NEWCO, you've lost the fight already. NWA pilots should only fly NWA airplanes. If NWA wants to buy 70/90/110 seat aircraft, then NWA pilot's should fly them within the NWA system. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think you guys are fighting the wrong battle.

 

[AnimalTale]

320-
Are the NWA pilots who fly for NEWCO going to make NWA wages or are they going to fly for regional pay rates? If your flying for regional pay rates, your a regional airline.

Tin,

Have you seen the NWA PAYRATES? IF you take in to consideration the ratio of seats to pay, The NWA payrates are close to regional pay. NWA mngmt would be very ignorant to start up a regional carrier, NEWCO, especially with the new work rules coming to effect at NWA.

The only reason I can think of would be to dissolve NWA into a "virtual" airline. Sell all of its parts. Newco to MEsaba or PCL. Intl flying to American etc..


Cya

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Guys XJ must be NewCo look at what their proposed pay rates are going to be. 100 seat rates at 13% less than 50 seat rates. DC-9 captains will soon be making 40K a year after they park those things. They will make lower than Mesa captains, what an insult.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

320-

I don't care either way, I'm not in the red tail family. I do however care that even by discussing creating a NEWCO your setting a dangerous example for other carriers to follow. I believe you said in the same paragraph that you didn't want to start another feeder, but then went on to say that only NWA pilots would fly for NEWCO. How is this not creating another feeder? Are the NWA pilots who fly for NEWCO going to make NWA wages or are they going to fly for regional pay rates? If your flying for regional pay rates, your a regional airline. The line in the sand should be that those airplanes be flown on the NWA property, not the NEWCO property. If your drawing the line in the sand for only NWA pilots fly for NEWCO, you've lost the fight already. NWA pilots should only fly NWA airplanes. If NWA wants to buy 70/90/110 seat aircraft, then NWA pilot's should fly them within the NWA system. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think you guys are fighting the wrong battle.

Yes we have lost the wage battle already. This is about an outsourcing battle right now, we can only fight that battle right now. We will start fighting for pay again after NWA comes out of Bankruptcy. Right now we need a unified list so we can fight that wage battle. If we have 4 pilot groups on the property with all different contracts and no scope, the flying will go to the one with the worst contract. XJ is soon to have possibly the worst contract in the industry why not give them the 747 flying at 50 seat rates. We CAN NOT fight a wage battle effectively without a scope contract.

 

[whymeworry?]

It's hard to have sympathy for NW, UAL and U pilots since they themselves allowed their management to steamroll it's wishes upon the pilots without much of a fight.

I know this statement makes me flamebait (I could care less) but if you think about it this is the same stance that the 3 aforementioned carriers took with everyone else during the 80s and 90s, i.e., they expected all the other carriers to uphold the profession and fight for good contracts.... and they were right. Then when their turn came they folded like a wet noodle.

By contrast, AQ pilots show up everyday in court and drew a line in the sand (no pun intended). They held their ground, they picketed, they put up a helluva fight. And they got a pretty good deal considering what they were facing, an 1113c contract throwout.

DAL pilots are equally putting up a fight. They too are showing up in court everyday and demonstrating the the BK judge that they will not be railroaded into a lose-lose deal. How much easier it would have been for them if their ALPA bretheran had a backbone when their time came?

I wish the NW pilots well. And I mean no harm in my comments, just calling it as I see it. I know it's hard to put up a fight when you're busy with kids, life and your career. But what did you expect? Management intimidated y'all and you put up no fight. It's not like the writing wasn't on the wall. NW's precarious situation has been evident for more than a year and it's mgmt team refused to follow the industry with fare increases for most of the past 5 years. Hence, it's MEC should have been preparing for a fight long ago. Instead, a paycut proposal comes out and the pilots all vote it in for fear of "rocking the boat". Good luck with the rest of your negotiations. Mgmt won the last round, y'all will have to FIGHT to gain any headway in the next one. Put up no fight and the ned result is obvious.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I wish the NW pilots well. And I mean no harm in my comments, just calling it as I see it. I know it's hard to put up a fight when you're busy with kids, life and your career. But what did you expect? Management intimidated y'all and you put up no fight. It's not like the writing wasn't on the wall. NW's precarious situation has been evident for more than a year and it's mgmt team refused to follow the industry with fare increases for most of the past 5 years. Hence, it's MEC should have been preparing for a fight long ago. Instead, a paycut proposal comes out and the pilots all vote it in for fear of "rocking the boat". Good luck with the rest of your negotiations. Mgmt won the last round, y'all will have to FIGHT to gain any headway in the next one. Put up no fight and the ned result is obvious.

This is a fight about scope. Those paycuts were taken to preserve scope. We can only fight one battle at a time. Once there is a viable scope solution then we can worry about pay. I'm just afraid that our pilots will take another paycut to extend the scope agreement. This battle needs to be fought right now this very moment. I say one seniority list is the best option, maybe the only option. With that kind of unity we will have the power to get our pay back.

 

[PCL_128]

I say one seniority list is the best option, maybe the only option. With that kind of unity we will have the power to get our pay back.

Smart man. The only problem is that you'll have to give up absolutely absurd amounts of pay and QOL to achieve a single list. Are you willing to do it? It could take two decades to make up what you'll lose to accomplish it.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Smart man. The only problem is that you'll have to give up absolutely absurd amounts of pay and QOL to achieve a single list. Are you willing to do it? It could take two decades to make up what you'll lose to accomplish it.

It's already gone.

 

[whymeworry?]

This is a fight about scope. Those paycuts were taken to preserve scope. We can only fight one battle at a time. Once there is a viable scope solution then we can worry about pay. I'm just afraid that our pilots will take another paycut to extend the scope agreement. This battle needs to be fought right now this very moment. I say one seniority list is the best option, maybe the only option. With that kind of unity we will have the power to get our pay back.

I disagree... DAL is fighting scope AND pay at the same time. AQ fought scope AND pay at the same time. This is about standing up to crooked mgmt and showing that pilots cannot be taken for granted. You mgmt is financially insulated from any problems that arise out of the BK process. You ought to expose that detail in open court and in the press... much the way the DAL pilots expose their mgmt. Further, the paycut would have only been taken "to preserve scope" if the NW pilots received an iron-clad agreement BEFORE taking the cuts, then perhaps I would refrain from judgement. But y'all took the paycuts in hope of a scope agreement with mgmt. In the eyes of most that's giving up any leverage you ever had before you even show up to the bargining table. Now you expect mgmt to play ball because the pilots show a "good faith" effort? Are you kidding me? Have you guys bothered to size up your adversary??? They were selling their insider shares 3-6 months before the BK filing, they set up CH 11 proof pension and parachute schemes BEFORE they filed, they hired the same legal guns that propelled Lorenzo to his ferocious union-busting status. Talk about burying your head in the sand.

Again, good luck. I wish you all well, really. And I hope you all prove me to be absolutely wrong.