NWA MEC Buffoons

[~~~^~~~]

Guys, so far the NWA MEC has been ineffective due to their intransigence. I don't expect this to change.

So far, I'm thankful every time they show their butts. NWA pilots could have had relative seniority in Delta. The outcome of arbitration is most likely to be relative seniority by equipment, which is better for the Delta side.

Maybe I'm weird, but I'm much more concerned about fuel prices and our economy than I am MEC members who have made themselves irrelevant by being against everything. Unless fuel comes down, our profession's future is in serious doubt.

China has Billions of people who have never set foot on an airplane. Folks can live without flying on airliners.

 

[cessnapilot]

Me too.

Well, you're making my point. I'm try to throw out a non threating dialog, and you come back with an attack. My comment about being glad I left is related to the hours of conversation that are going to go on back and forth related to this. It has nothing to do with flying with nwa pilots or delta pilots. Like I said, they aren't so different, and I have lots of friends at both places.

I have heard things from both sides. In addition, I have worked with some of the nwa alpa folks, and so I believe I have some facts too. If I wanted to, I could respond like you. "I don't want to sugar coat it, but I know the facts, and you are wrong." I'm not doing that. It isn't productive. I'm suggesting that perhaps your "facts" have some errors, as do mine. Dialog is more productive than pointing fingers and attacking. I'm not going to change your mind, I can tell that. It seems like your mind is closed. I'm, sorry if that seems like an attack, its just my opinion.

 

[Superpilot92]

ONE AIRLINE, ONE CONTRACT

So far this is the BEST thing posted

 

[nwaredtail]

So far, I'm thankful every time they show their butts

.

Now I get it.

 

[General Lee]

Guys, so far the NWA MEC has been ineffective due to their intransigence. I don't expect this to change.

So far, I'm thankful every time they show their butts. NWA pilots could have had relative seniority in Delta. The outcome of arbitration is most likely to be relative seniority by equipment, which is better for the Delta side.

Maybe I'm weird, but I'm much more concerned about fuel prices and our economy than I am MEC members who have made themselves irrelevant by being against everything. Unless fuel comes down, our profession's future is in serious doubt.

China has Billions of people who have never set foot on an airplane. Folks can live without flying on airliners.

People will have to travel, and travelling by car is probably more expensive across the country to see Granny. So, people will still fly. With high fuel, some airlines will unfortunately go away, that is reality. Capacity will go down, and that will help the remaining airlines. It will be harder to start up new companies, like a new Virgin America, when oil is this high. Certain airplanes will lose their luster, like RJs, to the average flier and to management who can see their lack of profitability during high oil. Fleets will be molded to better fit the needs of our economy and the World Economy. Those airlines that aren't hedged well better hope they can bring in revenue from overseas.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Well, you're making my point.

In what way? What did I post in my response that you disagree with or that makes your point?

That the picture gets clearer the more facts you use?

That the truth is the truth?

That I don't pander to have a nice conversation?

That I agree that the NWA pilots aren't much different than DAL pilots?


Please elaborate.


I'm try to throw out a non threating dialog, and you come back with an attack.

What attack?


My comment about being glad I left is related to the hours of conversation that are going to go on back and forth related to this. It has nothing to do with flying with nwa pilots or delta pilots. Like I said, they aren't so different, and I have lots of friends at both places.

Good.

I have heard things from both sides. In addition, I have worked with some of the nwa alpa folks, and so I believe I have some facts too. If I wanted to, I could respond like you. "I don't want to sugar coat it, but I know the facts, and you are wrong." I'm not doing that.

I've worked with some of the folks at DALPA, I know some facts too.

Dialog is more productive than pointing fingers and attacking.

I agree that dialogue is more productive than pointing fingers however, let's put this all in perspective, DALPA's been on the receiving end of over a month of attacks and finger pointing from NALPA. DALPA has just recently put out two communiques in response, I hope you don't believe that DALPA should just sit there and not respond to blatant mischaracterizations and misrepresentations do you? NALPA will not get a free pass to throw stones without having a few tossed back.

 

[Fly4hire]

Guys, so far the NWA MEC has been ineffective due to their intransigence. I don't expect this to change.

So far, I'm thankful every time they show their butts. NWA pilots could have had relative seniority in Delta. The outcome of arbitration is most likely to be relative seniority by equipment, which is better for the Delta side.

Keep believing that self-validating spin. The real action is nothing remotely like reported here.

The Veritas pieces are spin worthy of the North Korean state media. Complete drivel designed to excite your naive masses. The South's Gonna Do It Again......

 

[PuffDriver]

Keep believing that self-validating spin. The real action is nothing remotely like reported here.

The Veritas pieces are spin worthy of the North Korean state media. Complete drivel designed to excite your naive masses. The South's Gonna Do It Again......

Are you really this stupid? You guys are brainwashed. Where is your leader, Occam? PLease tell me that it is indeed clear as day as to what really happened in DC? You got your seats as promised. You got the same amount of seats as Delta pilots. In fact, Delta pilots gave up their seats to ensure this. AND, you got your seats so that you could come in and OPPOSE the merger--which Delta and the Delta MEC support--and you would too if you had ANY brains at all.

You can't fix stupid.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree that dialogue is more productive than pointing fingers however, let's put this all in perspective, DALPA's been on the receiving end of over a month of attacks and finger pointing from NALPA. DALPA has just recently put out two communiques in response, I hope you don't believe that DALPA should just sit there and not respond to blatant mischaracterizations and misrepresentations do you? NALPA will not get a free pass to throw stones without having a few tossed back.

One fact we can glean from communications on both sides is that there was little progress in the joint efforts on a contract.

Can a joint contract without a SLI really get done? Who has final authority? Who sits at the table with Delta management?

With fuel prices and market conditions, this might be a tougher contract to negotiate than what the majority of line pilots currently appreciate.

The Delta MEC is in a tough position. Anything they write is going to be deliberately misinterpreted by the NWA side (who will pander to their pilots) and the Delta pilots might feel sold out by any concessionary nod to the NWA side's concerns. To communicate, maybe just bullet point the facts. For example:

Northwest Pilots were not shut out of hearings on Capitol Hill:

• The Delta Air Lines Government Affairs Office employed line holders to ensure space was available for guests.
• The Northwest Pilots had equal opportunity to wait in line, or employ line holders, but did not do so.
• The Delta Air Lines Government Affairs Office in coordinated effort with the Delta MEC worked to get an equal number of Northwest and Delta pilots in line.
• Some Delta pilots volunteered their spots for the use of Northwest pilots

IMHO it is better to let the reader come to their own conclusions after reading the facts.

Calling the other side "Liars" with old Yiddish Proverbs (even if true) does not help move the football down the field, no matter how cathartic it feels when you write it.

 

[Fly4hire]

Are you really this stupid? You guys are brainwashed.

Gee, I was thinking the same thing about you guys.

Oh, I forget, your spin is truth and ours is just spin...

Where is your leader, Occam? Please tell me that it is indeed clear as day as to what really happened in DC?

Occam is not our leader - he is an ex-Rep with an informed opinion.

AND, you got your seats so that you could come in and OPPOSE the merger--which Delta and the Delta MEC support--and you would too if you had ANY brains at all.

Below is a copy of a letter sent to your Comm Cmte from our previous Comm Chairman:

TO: Robert Hazzard, DALPA Communications Committee Chairman
FROM: xxxxxx, (former) NWA ALPA Communications
RE: Veritas newsletter

May 20, 2008

Buzz,

As a former member of the NWA MEC Communications committee I have worked with
you before, most recently during the initial negotiations in NYC last
February. I always considered us to be colleagues that had mutual respect for
each other, regardless of where we might stand on particular issues. Up
until now, I had been impressed by the quality and professionalism of DALPA
communications. However, I am compelled to express my extreme disappointment
with the reactionary and offensive tone of your committee’s recent Veritas
publications.

I understand how Delta pilots may have misconstrued the significance of the
“Just the Facts” title (JTFs have been published for decades and the title
is not intended to add any meaning to its content). I also understand that
Delta pilots may disagree with some of the points made in NWA ALPA
communications. However I am disgusted by the snarky, superior tone and the
disrespectful accusations towards NWA pilots that these Veritas letters are laden
with. This type of name calling and blatant cheapshots are common and
expected on the webboards, but should have no place in ANY official ALPA
publication.

DALPA has every right to publish counterpoints to NWA ALPA’s version of
events. However, I believe that blatant personal attacks on the integrity of the
NWA ALPA leadership such as the following are unprofessional and outright
insulting to ALL Northwest pilots:

“We continue to be disappointed by the Northwest MEC’s decision to play fast
and loose with the truth. It serves no purpose other than to pander to the
Northwest pilots and to drive a wedge between our two pilot groups as we
attempt to resume negotiations toward a joint contract.”

“It didn’t take long for the Northwest MEC administration to start tilting at
windmills in an effort to find their imaginary villain.”

"A half-truth is a whole lie."… "A half-truth is the most cowardly of lies"
So enough of the half-truths.

“Sowing discord for political gain is the lowest form of leadership.”

“But guys, it’s not my fault. The arbitrator made me do it.”

“Sorry pal. You were in the wrong room. We were there to negotiate, not
arbitrate. The Leadership Abdication conference was down the hall.”

I would like to point out that regarding the merger, our MEC officers, our
Merger committee, our Negotiating committee and the rest of the NWA
integration team have the unanimous support of our MEC and the Northwest pilot
group, so when you publish these personal attacks, it insults all of us.

I personally don’t recall any NWA MEC publication that personally attacked
the DALPA leadership or claimed DALPA was lying. The NWA Communications
committee has always and surely will continue to present its own view of the
world in a professional manner without denigrating those that have opposing
viewpoints (except management occasionally). Going out of one’s way to
declare the “truthiness” of your message while destroying your opponent are
typically signs one is hiding behind a weak argument. For the record, the
Hotline passage that generated your second Veritas never even mentioned DALPA. It
only mentioned Delta management:

"In all communications over the past week we had requested the presence of
Northwest pilots at this hearing as a symbol of opposition to this merger.
However, DAL management hired as many as 50 linestanders, restricting the
number of positions for Northwest pilots. It is unfortunate that, in a hearing
regarding two ALPA carriers, the financial ability of Delta Air Lines can
allow funds to block our full participation at an event that discusses the
impact of consolidation."

I find it very unfortunate that it appears that these drawn out negotiations
have gotten personal for some of those involved and it is sad that these
Veritas letters have ratcheted the rhetoric to a new and dangerous level. It
has been a long standing ALPA tradition to settle our own differences
behind closed doors until you can emerge with a united front. Obviously the
stress of this negotiation is causing some cracking of that front from both
sides. It is my sincere hope that we can get past the built-up personality
and ego issues and get a fair and equitable deal done as soon as possible.

Again, you can refute our Hotlines or JTFs all you want. Go for it. We are
both entitled to present our own version of events without restriction. But
in the future, please keep it professional and on a level of mutual respect.
I am confident that the NWA Communications committee will continue to do
so, and hope that your committee will do the same.

Respectfully,

xxxxxxx

You can't fix stupid

No, apparently you can't....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Below is a copy of a letter sent to your Comm Cmte from our previous Comm Chairman:

... and what's it doing here? Hmmm a letter recieved by the NWA pilot membership before it was recieved by its addressee. Hmmmm.

A letter, or a side swipe?

In politics, restraint is everything. Usually the guy who gets the last word is the loser.

The real winner is the one who wins without saying anything and without the other side knowing they lost.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Are you really this stupid? You guys are brainwashed. Where is your leader, Occam?

You can't fix stupid.

I haven't posted on this thread, but thanks for the acknowledgment of of my super-important insight and influence!

Now back off.

There's nothing to gain by being a Level 3 turd on this website to pilots whom, like it or not, are going to have a significant role to play in the future success (or lack of it) in your career at Delta.

Treat that as a fact.

While you're at it, here are a few more:

1. We can get this done, despite the infantile ranting of the misguided...such as the one that started this thread.

2. Both sides have a made mistakes. BOTH. When I write my after-action report on this, your rebuttal will include comments such as "Yeah, but...", and "We only did that because...". Here's a pretty good rule-of-thumb for previewing your actions before you make them: Is this going to help the process? If your answer is anything other than an unequivocal "Yes", then you're hurting yourself. If it takes you a few seconds to rationalize your actions, then you might wanna double-check your Motives gyro. It may be precessing.

3. This process is unique, which makes it vulnerable to ego-driven assumptions and conclusions. It's unique because one MEC can't negotiate directly with management. They have to go through the other MEC. That has led to an element of mistrust that's normally reserved for our work with management, but has crept into the pilot-to-pilot negotiations.

4. A few of the individuals "in the room" are not well-suited to the task. They truck in conflict. The two MEC Chairmen, and their "inner-circle" are solid, and can get this done. Ditto the Negotiating Committees. Just as we have some posters here who just can let it slide...there are pilots involved who seem safety-wired to the "Screw those guys!" position.

5. Perspective and priorities can't be forced. The top third of our list has an "inversion". It's not your fault, and I don't expect you to like it...but I expect you to accept it as a bona fide issue that must be addressed. Likewise, the concerns of your neo-senior (211 to 2500) are legitimate, especially in comparison to their NWA counterparts who still have a sizable frozen DB. Then there are the concerns of the bottom 25% of both groups who are hoping their issues aren't ignored by their leadership. We can't expect the other side to share our prioritization of those issues, but we can't trivialize how the other side does it.

6. I smell smoke. Now would be a good time to focus on getting the bucket brigade together, instead of arguing over who-jostled-who on the way over. If you feel compelled find the villain(s) responsible for this effort not being completed successfully by now, check that your Self Control switch isn't in Override, and don't miss the opportunity to keep your pie hole shut. I'll do the same, promise.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Excellent post. What smoke do you smell?

 

[Occam's Razor]

I smell chaos as the dweebs running this industry panic in the face of rising fuel costs and tighter access to capital.

...and we're wearing Milk Bone underwear!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Glad to read your view on the MEC Chairmen.

I'm seeing the same smoke.