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NWA, Delta pilot clash blocking merger

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pb4ufly

Just a Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2001
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131
By LIZ FEDOR, Star Tribune

February 20, 2008
Northwest Airlines pilots risk losing pay raises of more than 30 percent included in a tentative labor agreement, because Northwest and Delta Air Lines pilot negotiators are at a virtual standstill over integrating their seniority lists, a person close to the negotiations told the Star Tribune.
The standoff between the pilot groups is blocking the announcement of a Northwest-Delta merger.
"Now the deal is at risk," the news source with knowledge of the talks said. "It is at risk by a handful, just a couple of renegade Northwest Airlines pilots who are insisting on stapling thousands of Delta pilots at the bottom of the seniority list.
"The tragedy of this is that two or three of these cowboys are going to deny 12,000 pilots and their families and tens of thousands of other Northwest employees and Delta employees the choice to improve their economic future," the source added.
The seniority list determines which airplane a pilot flies and how much a pilot earns.
"There is no [merger] deal without a merged seniority list ahead of time," the source said.
Matt Coons, a spokesman for the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, characterized the statements of the unnamed news source as false.
"It is interesting that this person who is supposedly so close to the negotiations is making statements that are absolutely not true. This is a pressure tactic to try to get Northwest pilots to accept a seniority list that could adversely affect their entire careers," Coons said.
The news source said that the Delta and Northwest pilots worked together constructively in recent weeks to negotiate a merged labor contract, which provides the 30 percent-plus pay raises for Northwest pilots over the four-year life of the contract. Compared to the existing contracts, there is an additional $2 billion in compensation in the proposed deal for the Northwest and Delta pilots, the news source said.
Delta pilots are now paid more, so their raises under the new labor agreement would be smaller.
One set of Northwest negotiators reached agreement on a labor deal that covers pay rates, benefits and work rules.
A second group of Northwest pilots has negotiated with Delta pilots on the seniority integration issue.
"They are the sole obstacle to a fair solution on the seniority integration," the person familiar with the talks said.
The Northwest ALPA executive council is scheduled to meet Thursday and Friday to discuss the merger. Some members of that council are prepared to vote against the tentative labor agreement if the seniority integration issue remains unresolved.
"We want any seniority list integration to be fair to pilots at the top, middle and the bottom of the seniority list," Coons said this morning. "Most of our economic and contractual issues have been favorably resolved and we are very enthusiastic about the growth that a consolidation could inspire."
The boards of Delta and Northwest are scheduled to meet today, but the carriers are not expected to announce a merger for now while the seniority issue remains up in the air.
Disputes over the seniority issue plagued the Northwest and Republic Airlines merger more than 20 years ago and have hurt the US Airways and America West merger that took effect in 2005.
"A pilot's career is tied completely to his or her seniority ranking and a short-term economic benefit is not worth sacrificing the possibility of advancement over an entire career," Coons said.
Delta pilots also are represented by ALPA. Delta's pilot group is larger, with about 7,000 pilots. The Northwest group is roughly 5,000 pilots.
About 3,000 Delta pilots would go to the bottom third of the merged seniority list if the Northwest delegation has its way, the unnamed news source said.

Delta CEO Richard Anderson, who would be the top executive of the merged carrier, is well acquainted with the dynamics of pilot labor negotiations. Since he also served as CEO of Northwest from 2001 to 2004, he's been exposed to the personalities and dynamics of both ALPA chapters.
It's unclear how long Anderson, Northwest CEO Doug Steenland and their boards will wait for ALPA leaders to resolve their conflicts or what management might do to try to break the logjam.
 
By LIZ FEDOR, Star Tribune

..
About 3,000 Delta pilots would go to the bottom third of the merged seniority list if the Northwest delegation has its way, the unnamed news source said.
...

I sure hope Ms. Fedor is smoking something good. NWA pilots wouldn't ask for their 2 month new hire to go in front of the 10 year guys at DAL.
Would they?
 
I'll bet the "news source with knowledge" is a management leak-lie. They want to give the pilots the bum's-rush and snooker them into a very very bad deal.

Happy to see that the NW pilots arent' biting. These management thieves need to get reamed the way they've been reaming the employees for years.

The so-called journalist at the Tribune has zero credibility with the article.
 
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Anyone familiar with Liz Fedors articles knows that she is one of a very few in the media that gets aviation stories consistentantly correct and accurate. Not saying that she doesn't have some bogus source here but reports from Liz are normally dead on.
 
"We want any seniority list integration to be fair to pilots at the top, middle and the bottom of the seniority list," Coons said this morning. "Most of our economic and contractual issues have been favorably resolved and we are very enthusiastic about the growth that a consolidation could inspire."

"A pilot's career is tied completely to his or her seniority ranking and a short-term economic benefit is not worth sacrificing the possibility of advancement over an entire career," Coons said.

About 3,000 Delta pilots would go to the bottom third of the merged seniority list if the Northwest delegation has its way, the unnamed news source said.

If this is the case DALPA needs to walk away from the table.

There's a pot of money management is willing to give up for this deal. If NW pilots are brought up to DL rates, that's a good chunk of the pot right there.

I think the translation of Coon's statement might read "We want your pay scales, larger equipment, and better bases, along with our share of the equity, but we're not willing to give anything up."

No offense, I was at NW but they bring very little to the table to benefit the DL pilot. They do bring much risk of retiring equipment, though. This deal can't fall apart fast enough.
 
If this is the case DALPA needs to walk away from the table.

There's a pot of money management is willing to give up for this deal. If NW pilots are brought up to DL rates, that's a good chunk of the pot right there.

I think the translation of Coon's statement might read "We want your pay scales, larger equipment, and better bases, along with our share of the equity, but we're not willing to give anything up."

No offense, I was at NW but they bring very little to the table to benefit the DL pilot. They do bring much risk of retiring equipment, though. This deal can't fall apart fast enough.

Agreed. I don't see any benefit for the Delta pilot group. The only thing we have to gain is a favorable SLI. Hope all these merger plans die soon.
 
That article has got to be smoke and mirrors, I am a NWA newhire and noboby in my class or myself would want or ask for Delta pilots hired before us to be put below us. I would only ask that I be given DOH as I am on property less than a year.

I believe in our MEC, they will attempt to do the right thing, and if it can be done they will do it, if not... well we both were doing just fine without each other.
 
Quote from another financial message board.
Delta is not buying NWA or anyone. If this deal goes will be a stock swap. DAL has $4.0 Billion debt due now through 2011, NWA $1.9. DAL has $1.0 Billion LESS cash on hand than NWA. DAL CASM is 10% higher than NWA. NWA Cash/Monthly Expense ratio over twice as good as DAL, 3.2 to 1.5 and NWA operating margin is almost 60% higher than DAL. NWA pretax margin is 139% higher than DAL. NWA had the highest operating margins in the industry in 2007. NWA gets 12% revenue from RJ's while DAL is 25%/expensive. DAL needs a merger/help before end of 2009 or gets tight on cash again. Over the next 20 years, the Pacific Region will have over twice the growth rate of any other region. DAL Pacific operation is 0.2% of their overall ops. NWA has 10% of their operations in Asia with 68 B-787 slots locked up. Who really needs who? p.s. Heard the equity is 7% but the pilots are FAR apart on seniority integration.
 
I'll bet the "news source with knowledge" is a management leak-lie. They want to give the pilots the bum's-rush and snooker them into a very very bad deal.

Happy to see that the NW pilots arent' biting. These management thieves need to get reamed the way they've been reaming the employees for years.

The so-called journalist at the Tribune has zero credibility with the article.
Liz Fedor has always been a good friend to the Association. You'll notice that she specifically gave equal time to NWA ALPA to refute these claims from the other source. The other source is likely a management stooge that's trying to make NWA ALPA look bad.
 
The bottom third will all be Delta pilots? No thanks hosers. Lee Moak better be all over this like a teamster on a meatball sandwich.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Quote from another financial message board.
Delta is not buying NWA or anyone. If this deal goes will be a stock swap. DAL has $4.0 Billion debt due now through 2011, NWA $1.9. DAL has $1.0 Billion LESS cash on hand than NWA. DAL CASM is 10% higher than NWA. NWA Cash/Monthly Expense ratio over twice as good as DAL, 3.2 to 1.5 and NWA operating margin is almost 60% higher than DAL. NWA pretax margin is 139% higher than DAL. NWA had the highest operating margins in the industry in 2007. NWA gets 12% revenue from RJ's while DAL is 25%/expensive. DAL needs a merger/help before end of 2009 or gets tight on cash again. Over the next 20 years, the Pacific Region will have over twice the growth rate of any other region. DAL Pacific operation is 0.2% of their overall ops. NWA has 10% of their operations in Asia with 68 B-787 slots locked up. Who really needs who? p.s. Heard the equity is 7% but the pilots are FAR apart on seniority integration.

That's great. You have a lot of old planes, and krappy bases. Where do you think our new 777LRs will be going as we get them? We get 6 new ones within 3 months later this year. We will overfly NRT and go nonstop, probably from LAX and ATL. I have a feeling our .2% will rise a bit, eh? But according to you, DL will be empty because NWA is so well known and really the "home town favorite" in Japan, at least according to your NRT gate agents.......whatever...

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
The bottom third will all be Delta pilots? No thanks hosers.

Agreed. I don't put much merit into this idea, seems more like a flaimbait or a response to the a previous rediculous idea. Hopefully a fairly fair and equitable solution will be found if the deal is meant to be.
 
Agreed. I don't put much merit into this idea, seems more like a flaimbait or a response to the a previous rediculous idea. Hopefully a fairly fair and equitable solution will be found if the deal is meant to be.

There you go, you sound rational now. I know there are retirements in your future, which would good for all of us, period. We are getting more planes than you are, and only you guys will be needing to get rid of planes sooner than later (DC9s and 742s). So, your retirements will offset your old planes leaving. YES, you are getting a boat load of 787s, just like we are getting a lot of 777LRs, which can fly the same distance as a 787, with more people and cargo.

If this deal is a good one for all sides, then it may be a go. If your "cowboy" negotiators are hell bent on unrealistic expectations like the USAir Easties, then it won't, and it also won't get any better with the CAL boys and girls either. If that is the case, those DC9s better last a while longer for you...


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
There you go, you sound rational now. I know there are retirements in your future, which would good for all of us, period. We are getting more planes than you are, and only you guys will be needing to get rid of planes sooner than later (DC9s and 742s). So, your retirements will offset your old planes leaving. YES, you are getting a boat load of 787s, just like we are getting a lot of 777LRs, which can fly the same distance as a 787, with more people and cargo.

If this deal is a good one for all sides, then it may be a go. If your "cowboy" negotiators are hell bent on unrealistic expectations like the USAir Easties, then it won't, and it also won't get any better with the CAL boys and girls either. If that is the case, those DC9s better last a while longer for you...


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well, we are kind of a wild bunch, so hopefully our "cowboys" have the best and quickest draw in the south (or north I guess if they are negotiating in NY). Anyway, I think that both managements are beginning the process of negotiating in the public in order to pit the groups against each other. The opening match is the cowboys vs the rednecks. The grand finally is management leaving a fragmented group with the money. However, this could backfire if there is no deal, as it could very well bring the separate groups into a much more cohesive unit.

By the way, how many firm orders are in place for 777's? How many options?
 
I sure hope Ms. Fedor is smoking something good. NWA pilots wouldn't ask for their 2 month new hire to go in front of the 10 year guys at DAL.
Would they?

Anybody that knows anything about the Red-book/Green-book saga knows that anything is possible with the NWA pilot group.
 
There you go, you sound rational now. I know there are retirements in your future, which would good for all of us, period. We are getting more planes than you are, and only you guys will be needing to get rid of planes sooner than later (DC9s and 742s). So, your retirements will offset your old planes leaving. YES, you are getting a boat load of 787s, just like we are getting a lot of 777LRs, which can fly the same distance as a 787, with more people and cargo.

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,
First off, I think this "unnamed source" is full of B.S. Just trying to stir up a $hit-$torm. The only way I can see a propasal for 3000 DAL pilots to be stapled if it was a counter to an equally ridiculous offer from the DAL side.

As far as retirements; they do have play with respect to career expections. Maybe a projected snapshot 10 years from now would help with what career expections look like.

I wouldn't be too quick to dis the NWA fleet. DAL has a lot of aircraft in the 757/767 category. Don't great me wrong--great aircraft, but I wouldn't say our entire seniority list is completely salivating over them as some DAL types would lead you to believe. Beyond that, DAL only has 8 (EIGHT) 777's with 8 (I think) on order. Compare that with 30 747's, 32 A-330's, and potentially 68 787's. They're all superior to all DAL aircraft with the exception of the 8 777's. I'll grant you the pay rates need to be fixed--and they will whether its via a merger or our next contract negotiations. Unfortunately, we sold out to save the retirement plan. The 68 DC-9's will be around until a 100 seat replacement is found. There is no way around it with the current scope--unless they start parking the E-175s/CRJ-900's (no chance). There is no reason to replace the paid for aircraft which have years of service left in them. It would cost $30-$40 per seat per segment more to replace them with new aircraft. It makes no sense. Why not wait until the next generation 100 seaters come to market before sinking the new capital, especially when what you have is working.

I too hope for a fair seniority integration. I wouldn't bite off on this unnamed source. If this whole merger all falls apart, who cares. Contract repair will come the next time around. Our pilot group is pissed, and those who will be left at that time will walk if our rates aren't on par with industry leaders.

Schwanker
 
First off, I think this "unnamed source" is full of B.S. Just trying to stir up a $hit-$torm.

Ford & Harrison is a union busting law firm that airlines hire to stir up just this kind of thing. Do a search on "Flight Options" and Continental Airlines to see these tactics. (Delta's EVP of Human Resources if a founding father of Ford & Harrison, going there after "retiring" from destroying pilot benefits at Continental. They are MOST visible right now at Flight Options, but in the case of DL this guy takes an HR position, and can quietly disrupt everything.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308
 
I second what Schwanker said.

The idea that NWA has nothing to offer and would be lucky to join Delta is horse pucky. If it was so easy to over fly us to Asia, then what is the hold up? We're making plenty of cash and can go on our own just fine, we don't need to drop trousers and say thanks. As a Newer NWA pilot I'm not real interested in having a bunch of year old Delta pilots get in our line and get upgraded on our future retirements. 50% of our work force is 52 years old or older. That is one of the reasons NWA is appealing. Things are bright up here in the North. And as a Northerner, the Delta bases hold no appeal. So toss that argument.
 
50% of our work force is 52 years old or older. That is one of the reasons NWA is appealing.

So potentially we could all wait up to 13 years before we see any significant movement from all the retirements you talk about. In that time, large amounts of retirements kick in at Delta too.
 
GL,
First off, I think this "unnamed source" is full of B.S. Just trying to stir up a $hit-$torm. The only way I can see a propasal for 3000 DAL pilots to be stapled if it was a counter to an equally ridiculous offer from the DAL side.

As far as retirements; they do have play with respect to career expections. Maybe a projected snapshot 10 years from now would help with what career expections look like.

I wouldn't be too quick to dis the NWA fleet. DAL has a lot of aircraft in the 757/767 category. Don't great me wrong--great aircraft, but I wouldn't say our entire seniority list is completely salivating over them as some DAL types would lead you to believe. Beyond that, DAL only has 8 (EIGHT) 777's with 8 (I think) on order. Compare that with 30 747's, 32 A-330's, and potentially 68 787's. They're all superior to all DAL aircraft with the exception of the 8 777's. I'll grant you the pay rates need to be fixed--and they will whether its via a merger or our next contract negotiations. Unfortunately, we sold out to save the retirement plan. The 68 DC-9's will be around until a 100 seat replacement is found. There is no way around it with the current scope--unless they start parking the E-175s/CRJ-900's (no chance). There is no reason to replace the paid for aircraft which have years of service left in them. It would cost $30-$40 per seat per segment more to replace them with new aircraft. It makes no sense. Why not wait until the next generation 100 seaters come to market before sinking the new capital, especially when what you have is working.

I too hope for a fair seniority integration. I wouldn't bite off on this unnamed source. If this whole merger all falls apart, who cares. Contract repair will come the next time around. Our pilot group is pissed, and those who will be left at that time will walk if our rates aren't on par with industry leaders.

Schwanker


I am glad you too hope for fair integration. I think almost all of us do. As far as our fleets go, you forgot our 767-400ERs (we have 21) that pay a lot more than your A330s. We have them mostly flying to Europe, with 2 a day going to HNL from ATL also. We even have one flight a day starting in March from ATL to SVO (Moscow) nonstop. It has great cargo capability compared to the 767-300ER, with pretty good range (enough to go to Moscow from ATL), and our executives love it for Europe. We are getting 2 777LRs this month (both going to BOM from JFK nonstop--while the 777ERs they will replace will fly from ATL to PVG (Shanghai) nonstop on March 31st) and another at the end of this year.

As far as your fleet goes, your 742s have been pulled out of normal pax service (one is flying MAC charters), and the rest 12 (you had 13 but one was chopped for spares) are doing the Cargo stuff in ANC. They may be on the way out sooner than later, thanks to other cargo carriers ditching them quickly (UPS, who has plenty of cash, is getting rid of theirs). So, looking at your 742s going, your 744s possibly taking over the cargo runs (hopefully you will find a replacement for the lost DHL lift), and the DC9s leaving (30 dash 30s this year alone, with 68 more pending total), and no current 787s on property (or any property--delays are still occuring with the first one built), your fleet is not set in stone.

I understand your feelings about the DC9s staying, and maybe you are right. Supposed big wigs down here in ATL (your potential bosses) are saying they will get rid of the DC9s. If that is true, you are not bringing those to the table for all of us to share. You are bringing planes that will leave. Maybe MD90s could replace them and act as a stopgap until new 737s could be brouht online. Nobody knows.

Again, you state you have 30 747s (12 or 14 of them are on the way out), 32 A330s, and 787s that aren't here yet, and could be delayed more. We are getting firm 777LRs, and 6 will come in a 3 month period. The first two are flying now--already in Delta paint. That would mean you have 50 widebodies that could stay, and more that hope to arrive within the next 10 years.

I know your guys are pissed, so are ours. We took a
47% paycut, and lost the pension. (yes, we did get some cash payout) We see this as Northwest guys getting a pay raise (double digits while we get a modest raise), getting our better work rules, and keeping their pensions, while getting better bases to eventually bid to. All of that for you, and not much for us except the chance to fly a bus someday. SLI a bit more in our favor would give us something after you got a lot more. Fences will probably help too.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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So potentially we could all wait up to 13 years before we see any significant movement from all the retirements you talk about. In that time, large amounts of retirements kick in at Delta too.

DAL age 65 required retirements between now and 2020: 1003 / 7123 (Current List As of 1 Jan 2008) = 14%
 
So potentially we could all wait up to 13 years before we see any significant movement from all the retirements you talk about. In that time, large amounts of retirements kick in at Delta too.

Over the next 13 years if every NWA pilot went to 65, which will not happen because of the pension setup, we would see all the top 50% retire. It would not start then, it would be done.
 
DAL age 65 required retirements between now and 2020: 1003 / 7123 (Current List As of 1 Jan 2008) = 14%

Your numbers are off a little, But I didn't say we have the same retirements as you. I said in 13 years large numbers of retirements kick in. From 2021 to 2025 we retire almost 2200 pilots.


In the next 13 years I would rather have our combo of growth and retirement that your combo of the two.
 
I second what Schwanker said.

The idea that NWA has nothing to offer and would be lucky to join Delta is horse pucky. If it was so easy to over fly us to Asia, then what is the hold up? We're making plenty of cash and can go on our own just fine, we don't need to drop trousers and say thanks. As a Newer NWA pilot I'm not real interested in having a bunch of year old Delta pilots get in our line and get upgraded on our future retirements. 50% of our work force is 52 years old or older. That is one of the reasons NWA is appealing. Things are bright up here in the North. And as a Northerner, the Delta bases hold no appeal. So toss that argument.

I think you might be missing my point. I am not saying that NWA doesn't offer DAL a great deal in a merger. I am saying there is no benefit to the Delta pilots. All of the 'where we fly, what we fly" stuff is up to management. I am merely saying that if the Delta pilots don't get favorable SLI, then there is absolutly no reason to merge....from a pilot standpoint. Hopefully you will enjoy a great career at NWA....hope this deal is dead soon...
 
Ford & Harrison is a union busting law firm that airlines hire to stir up just this kind of thing. Do a search on "Flight Options" and Continental Airlines to see these tactics. (Delta's EVP of Human Resources if a founding father of Ford & Harrison, going there after "retiring" from destroying pilot benefits at Continental. They are MOST visible right now at Flight Options, but in the case of DL this guy takes an HR position, and can quietly disrupt everything.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308


That Thread is a BIG read and everyone should read about this prior to getting to bent.
 
DAL age 65 required retirements between now and 2020: 1003 / 7123 (Current List As of 1 Jan 2008) = 14%

Through 2020 DAL has 1,259 retirements.

1,712 through 2021, 2,244 through 2022.

I believe after 2021 there are significantly more DAL retirements each year than NWA.

I guess it depends on where you want to take your snap shot as to who has more retirements.
 
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