NWA/DAL Seniority list..

[Sinca3]

Right where I expected to be.....Better than the NWA proposal and worse than the DAL proposal.
From the first looks of it NWA hogs the top of the list and I still haven't figured out this pull out plug in BS.

 

[AirportBum]

Can't complain. Glad this $hit is finally over. :beer:

 

[tblosser]

No "list" in the Award. It is described in the Award. 4 segments, with a straight ratio within each segment. 5 year (after SOC) fence on the 777/787/747. 274 oldest NWA guys "pulled and plugged" into the list to expedite move-up on NWA side.

Yours does not have a list? Ours does.

 

[propdog]

Right where I expected to be.....Better than the NWA proposal and worse than the DAL proposal.
From the first looks of it NWA hogs the top of the list and I still haven't figured out this pull out plug in BS.

Can somebody explain this 'pull-out-plug-in' deal please?

 

[Superpilot92]

Can somebody explain this 'pull-out-plug-in' deal please?

I think it means as those oldest 274 pilots retire only NWA pilots move up in seniority. So over time the nwa pilots will get a bump of 274 spots as those old guys retire.

 

[nwaredtail]

Can somebody explain this 'pull-out-plug-in' deal please?

Basically used to appease the NWA guys for a bit of attrition, key word is a "bit". 260 plus guys pulled out of the list and some NWA guys were pulled out of where they were and put 260 spots up. Seeing as we have retired that many guys this year alone, this is where most of the heartburn will be.

Also hearing that in 10 years, 85% of the WB slots will be DAl pilots, but still waiting on the projections.

Also, I personally think the furlough clause is BS, due to DAL calling the shots. Hopefully, we won't have to worry about it.

Most of the NWA guys that I have spoken to are a bit pissed and it seems the DAL guys are relatively happy. I thought we were both supposed to be pissed

 

[135Drvr]

This may make it interesting next year when the furloughs come:

"From November 1, 2008, until the first bid period following issuance of

the SOC, any furloughs that are the result of the reduction in flying in the
pre-merger aircraft contained in each airline's Pre-merger fleet shall be
borne by the pilots from that pre-merger airline regardless of their system
seniority; provided, however, that any furloughs resulting from such​

reduction in B757 shall be shared on a 1:1 basis."

 

[PuffDriver]

I think it means as those oldest 274 pilots retire only NWA pilots move up in seniority. So over time the nwa pilots will get a bump of 274 spots as those old guys retire.

I think that you are whacked.

It means that these guys were pulled out, the list created, and then they were plugged back in to the place they should be. That way, NWA guys got the benefit of their not being there when the ratio was created. Basically, a Delta guy is penalized a number, up to 274 total for every one of those NWA guys of the 274 who is senior to him/until those guys retire--which will be within the next couple of years. There is no leapfrogging in the list. It was "pre-dynamic'd"--if you will.

 

[SimHo]

Can anyone post the list?

 

[Jabwmu]

This may make it interesting next year when the furloughs come:

"From November 1, 2008, until the first bid period following issuance of

the SOC, any furloughs that are the result of the reduction in flying in the
pre-merger aircraft contained in each airline's Pre-merger fleet shall be
borne by the pilots from that pre-merger airline regardless of their system
seniority; provided, however, that any furloughs resulting from such​

reduction in B757 shall be shared on a 1:1 basis."

How does Compass/Mesaba fit in with this if they do furlough? Does this mean the first company to furlough flowdown (before SOC)?

 

[PuffDriver]

Basically used to appease the NWA guys for a bit of attrition, key word is a "bit". 260 plus guys pulled out of the list and some NWA guys were pulled out of where they were and put 260 spots up. Seeing as we have retired that many guys this year alone, this is where most of the heartburn will be.

Also hearing that in 10 years, 85% of the WB slots will be DAl pilots, but still waiting on the projections.

Also, I personally think the furlough clause is BS, due to DAL calling the shots. Hopefully, we won't have to worry about it.

Most of the NWA guys that I have spoken to are a bit pissed and it seems the DAL guys are relatively happy. I thought we were both supposed to be pissed

The forumites will not be pleased on the Delta side. The lack of fences on the 767-400 and the 767 will hurt badly. The senior f/os should be pretty happy. The commuters on the NWA side should be pretty happy as well. The Delta guys WILL get attrition sooner than planned which is good.

The investor conference will be interesting tomorrow.

It's done anyway. Pretty neutral IMO.

 

[propdog]

I think it means as those oldest 274 pilots retire only NWA pilots move up in seniority. So over time the nwa pilots will get a bump of 274 spots as those old guys retire.

I figured it out...it means the list was created without the top 274 NWA pilots.....thereby giving the NWA pilots a very slight advantage on the relative seniority. No...NWA pilots are not going to move up exclusively when they retire...the list is not dynamic.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

It's gonna be OK PuffDriver. They took both sides into consideration... NWA IS gonna have a few more retirements, we've got more of the bigger airplanes.

I personally think the a330 and 764's should have been fenced as well..but whatever.

I think we can all live with this list and not refer to each other by "N-dubbook" and "widgetbook" for the rest of our careers.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Propdog is correct. The list is fixed... no "dynamic" to it.

 

[Superpilot92]

I figured it out...it means the list was created without the top 274 NWA pilots.....thereby giving the NWA pilots a very slight advantage on the relative seniority. No...NWA pilots are not going to move up exclusively when they retire...the list is not dynamic.

Yeah i figured it out also. I missunderstood it the first go around.

 

[PuffDriver]

It's gonna be OK PuffDriver. They took both sides into consideration... NWA IS gonna have a few more retirements, we've got more of the bigger airplanes.

I personally think the a330 and 764's should have been fenced as well..but whatever.

I think we can all live with this list and not refer to each other by "N-dubbook" and "widgetbook" for the rest of our careers.

Who said it wasn't going to be ok? I was refuting an assertion that the award was all rosy for Delta. It's not.

 

[Speedbird34]

The forumites will not be pleased on the Delta side. The lack of fences on the 767-400 and the 767 will hurt badly. The senior f/os should be pretty happy. The commuters on the NWA side should be pretty happy as well. The Delta guys WILL get attrition sooner than planned which is good.

The investor conference will be interesting tomorrow.

It's done anyway. Pretty neutral IMO.

You are right the new SLI is terrible for Delta pilots hired from 2006 and those of us on the B767 get ready to get displaced out of your seats. Not sure how it affected others hired pre 9/11, but for me nothing to smile about on the new list.
But I never supported the merger and expected my lifestyle to get really bad in the future so no surprise here.
We just have to suck up the pain and move on. We do not really have any control over what happens at Delta.
Good luck Delta guys and there is more to life than your job so enjoy it and do not dwell too much on this injustice. I believe we set ourselves up for this failure and presented the fair proposal and got the middle of that proposal which has hurt us.
Congrats to the Northwest guys on their victory. Time to move on and I am happy we have a ending. Hopefully the future does not hurt as much as I expect it to sting.

 

[TWA Dude]

I thought we were both supposed to be pissed

It's a function of your expectations. Those most dissappointed are those who expected too much...

 

[Tref]

Speedbird34,

You will not be displaced. Read from the Conditions and Restrictions:

3. Neither the implementation of the ISSL nor the implementation or
expiration of a condition or restriction herein, in and of itself, shall cause
the displacement of any pilot from his or her then-current position
(including pilots who have been awarded positions but had not
commenced or completed training).

I really don't know what you're so upset about. I get to spend the next 25 years with the guy directly senior to me being hired six and a half years after me. So much for "career expectations."

Could ya remind me again how lucky I am to be a Delta pilot?! So far the Koolaid tastes like $hit.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Who said it wasn't going to be ok? I was refuting an assertion that the award was all rosy for Delta. It's not.

True. It's not all rosy for either side, nor is it a poop-sandwich for either side. It is what it is.

 

[Sedona16]

Speedbird34,

You will not be displaced. Read from the Conditions and Restrictions:

3. Neither the implementation of the ISSL nor the implementation or
expiration of a condition or restriction herein, in and of itself, shall cause
the displacement of any pilot from his or her then-current position
(including pilots who have been awarded positions but had not
commenced or completed training).

I really don't know what you're so upset about. I get to spend the next 25 years with the guy directly senior to me being hired six and a half years after me. So much for "career expectations."

Could ya remind me again how lucky I am to be a Delta pilot?! So far the Koolaid tastes like $hit.

Any delta guys who know how this works please help. So I remember seeing a few guys on the last AE who were displaced from 737 to MD and out of current base to NYC. I think they might have been in CVG but not sure. My question revolves around this bit mentioned above. If I understand it correctly the conditions set forth above are pretty much meaningless when you talk about moving different categories of airplanes all over the system (reducing category size in one base or doing away with it completely) as you "right size" the delta fleet for the missions that corporate sees fit.

For example if Delta decides to replace the MD's in SLC with Airbus A320's. The NWA guys who have been chomping at the bit to move west simply roll into the 320's and many junior SLC MD guys are bumped from their seat (Sr Captains might be able to take mid position 320 Captain slots and jr Captains can join Sr Delta F.O.'s in the right seat of the 320, 737, 757, etc bumping jr F.O.'s in all of those airplanes (conceivably to right seat of the DC9 in Detroit or MSP). So in essence the language above although maybe making one feel all warm and fuzzy at first, just like the "no furloughs due to the merger from Richard, turn out meaningless (now furloughs due to the economy of course).

 

[General Lee]

Basically used to appease the NWA guys for a bit of attrition, key word is a "bit". 260 plus guys pulled out of the list and some NWA guys were pulled out of where they were and put 260 spots up. Seeing as we have retired that many guys this year alone, this is where most of the heartburn will be.

Also hearing that in 10 years, 85% of the WB slots will be DAl pilots, but still waiting on the projections.

Also, I personally think the furlough clause is BS, due to DAL calling the shots. Hopefully, we won't have to worry about it.

Most of the NWA guys that I have spoken to are a bit pissed and it seems the DAL guys are relatively happy. I thought we were both supposed to be pissed

I feel pretty darn good.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[donaldd]

I feel pretty darn good.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General Lee,
You Pontificating NitWit!!!!!!!!! Hope you are proud of the fact that 26 year old Delta new hires are senior to 40 year old NW new hires. You racist POS!!!!! We will see what happens when your precious 757's go down due to lack of experience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bye Bye--Donaldd

 

[General Lee]

General Lee,
You Pontificating NitWit!!!!!!!!! Hope you are proud of the fact that 26 year old Delta new hires are senior to 40 year old NW new hires. You racist POS!!!!! We will see what happens when your precious 757's go down due to lack of experience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That seriously was FANTASTIC. Bravo! I wanna read MORE from you---you are hillarious. And if you are so against age discrimination, tell me why there is an age limit for new Presidents in the Constitution? Now you look dumb.....And look at all of your experience--some RJ and Saab time, and DC9 time. Looks like you might have been a 727FE, and then onto that DC9.....Those young guys on the 757 right now will make you look foolish when you start flying it. Be sure to ask a lot of questions...

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[donaldd]

General Lee,
Age discrimation???? How about experience, aka length of service you jack a$$$$$. Let us turn the tables and have a 26 yr old NW new hire be senior to you!!!???? Not fair???? Be honest and you would have to say yes. RIGHT???????????? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!?????????????? What is your answer??????? Keep chewing on that beef jerky and mull it over while you salute your confederate flag(U racist POS!!!!!!!!!)

 

[donaldd]

G. Lee. Now you look foolish! What an idiotic quote that I would look foolish asking 75 f/o's how to fly. Put me in a sim and I could fly circles around you and whoever else you brought to the dance--you know that is true. The minute those boys would click off the a/p they would be in the "cone of confusion'!!!!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

General Lee,
Age discrimation???? How about experience, aka length of service you jack a$$$$$. Let us turn the tables and have a 26 yr old NW new hire be senior to you!!!???? Not fair???? Be honest and you would have to say yes. RIGHT???????????? I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!?????????????? What is your answer??????? Keep chewing on that beef jerky and mull it over while you salute your confederate flag(U racist POS!!!!!!!!!)

Experience? How can you really judge that? You fly old DC9s. You probably hand fly more than most and read charts while the rest of us read the paper. Your 6 legs a day to very cold places makes you a fantastic lander on snow.... Wow, you are experienced...........And, a USAIR East 17 year FO sits next to a newhire at America West. That is the way it goes. It's done. Sorry. (no, no I'm not)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

G. Lee. Now you look foolish! What an idiotic quote that I would look foolish asking 75 f/o's how to fly. Put me in a sim and I could fly circles around you and whoever else you brought to the dance--you know that is true. The minute those boys would click off the a/p they would be in the "cone of confusion'!!!!!!!!

Guess what Don? The rest of the world flies advanced planes. Someday maybe you will too, unless you can't remember how to work the FMS again since your RJ days. Your scan must be fantastic. I don't really care. Yippy dee doo!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetflier]

My ratio NWA 46% to 50% new list and as a 1995 hire i am plugged in to the 1991 DAL hires.... better than I expected it to be.

General, take note that there is no fence on the DC9 Captain positions, here is your big chance

 

[General Lee]

My ratio NWA 46% to 50% new list and as a 1995 hire i am plugged in to the 1991 DAL hires.... better than I expected it to be.

General, take note that there is no fence on the DC9 Captain positions, here is your big chance

We had furloughs after 91, and didn't bring them back until 96. And, I never will fly the DC9. I prefer the paper to charts.

Bye Bye--General Lee