NWA/DAL negotiations update

[nwaredtail]

So on top of the % pay increase to bring their contract up to ours, they will get a huge pay increase to change their longevity to where it rightfully should be.

[/QUOTE]

Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?

 

[General Lee]

[/quote]Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?[/quote]

If he is on the DC9, it probably won't.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Protections? Well, depending on when the DC9s are parked (they will be eventually), the timing of the SLI is important.

So when are all of your gas-guzzling MD-80's going to be parked? How old are your 767's? When will they be parked?

Don't worry General. Not to pick on just you. Nobody seems to want to address the fleet incompatibility as well.

What will the new Delta do with all the NWA Airbuses? What is the fuel burn of a 747? Will they be grounded?

If you simply answer that Delta will just "replace" these aircraft, where are the details?

Where the hell is Delta (not far from yet another bankruptcy right now) going to come up with capital and/or financing? If they are Boeing replacements, what production line will they come from?

You guys are amazing how you think that the size of this combined airline will stay static or grow. You are all banking on things to fall into place that have historically NEVER fallen into place after mergers.

This current hiring boom Delta just went through was a result of a huge expansion gamble. What if things don't work out as planned? Who will be the furlough fodder for that debacle? What is Delta goes into BK again? Where will the furloughs come from?

The Delta Family is about to become the Hatfields and McCoys.

 

[General Lee]

So when are all of your gas-guzzling MD-80's going to be parked? How old are your 767's? When will they be parked?

Don't worry General. Not to pick on just you. Nobody seems to want to address the fleet incompatibility as well.

What will the new Delta do with all the NWA Airbuses? What is the fuel burn of a 747? Will they be grounded?

If you simply answer that Delta will just "replace" these aircraft, where are the details?

Where the hell is Delta (not far from yet another bankruptcy right now) going to come up with capital and/or financing? If they are Boeing replacements, what production line will they come from?

You guys are amazing how you think that the size of this combined airline will stay static or grow. You are all banking on things to fall into place that have historically NEVER fallen into place after mergers.

This current hiring boom Delta just went through was a result of a huge expansion gamble. What if things don't work out as planned? Who will be the furlough fodder for that debacle? What is Delta goes into BK again? Where will the furloughs come from?

The Delta Family is about to become the Hatfields and McCoys.

Frank, you actually ran an airline? Wow, you don't know much. The MD88s are newer than AA MD80s, have autothrottles and FMS to help with fuel burn, and can carry more people so the CASM is lower. After our BK the lease rates were reduced $200,000 a month lower than they were, making them more profitable. They are now used on some INTL routes from ATL---which can be a better fit than the 738 or 757 on certain routes.

How old are the 767s? Well, we are adding winglets to them. Does that tell you something? That will help out on fuel burn, and they are good cargo birds also. Rumor has it that some of them will get a cargo conversion and go to ANC. (UPS flies them from ANC to Osaka, Seoul, etc) We will still have those valuable cargo slots when we merge you know, and the 742s are getting really old. If UPS is getting rid of them, I bet we will eventually. The 744s will probably be converted to cargo also. Even Air France announced their 744s retirements---they are adding 777-300ERs at a fast rate to replace them.

Will we replace all of the old planes? Probably---with 777LRs and 787s for the widebodies, and 737NGs and some 100 seater Boeing may produce for the narrowbodies. We supposedly will have the same hubs (according to RA today anyway)---so I think we will have close to the same numbers for fleet. It will take awhile to replace though, and in the meantime we will supplement our fleet with fairly new used aircraft if needed--like the 20 MD90s that could be coming from Saudia. They are more fuel efficient than other planes out there, and could provide the gap.

Who will be furloughed you ask? If we on the DL side park our planes before we combine the certificates, then our side will furlough. Same goes for NWA. It will take awhile anyway to get the SLI done it seems.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dtfl]

Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?[/quote]

No junior pilot will be happy with a temporary pay raise, only to be furloughed because the DC9s were parked AFTER the SLI.

 

[dtfl]

Are you joking? NWA did more "cleaning house" in BK than any other airline. That's precisely why we have the lowest operating cost in the business. Only a few years ago we had a fleet of 165 DC9's. We had almost 500+ total aircraft, while now we have 300 and some change.

If you think Delta is still going to receive those aircraft this year with fuel $130 + you're high.

and you think you will receive the coveted 787?
And I'd like to see those #s proving you have the lowest cost in the business. Legacy business, maybe. Nevermind..I'll research it.....

 

[dtfl]

Stick to the point.... What does the equip have anything to do with integrating a sen list? NOTHING.

On the other issue, you just answered my point. New hires are getting the 767 because it sucks. Blame it on resv rules, base, whatever, it sucks. To be junior at DAL on the 767 is not good. Just like being junior on the DC9 sucks.

Thats NOT what he said. New hires are getting the 767 (and MD88) to the NYC area....because NYC/LGA/EWR SUCK.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not? raise or some of the previous money back?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?

No junior pilot will be happy with a temporary pay raise, only to be furloughed because the DC9s were parked AFTER the SLI.

If the DC9s are just "parked" after the SLI then its directly because of the DAL scope language. It is directly against the NWA scope language to just park all the DC9s without parking 70 seaters first. I know it sounds better for your argument but thats the truth.

 

[Schwanker]

Protections? Well, depending on when the DC9s are parked (they will be eventually)......
Bye Bye--General Lee

So will all 8 (strike that), all 10 of your 777s.

Schwanker

 

[~~~^~~~]

nevermind....

 

[General Lee]

So will all 8 (strike that), all 10 of your 777s.

Schwanker

We'll have 16 777s by next March 31st, and probably 20 or more after that. Yeah, and they will all eventually be parked, and then I will bid the Space Shuttle and do Moon turns. You will probably hold long trips to Uranus.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

We'll have 16 777s by next March 31st, and probably 20 or more after that.

Typical General Lee, they will probably get more, but when NWA guys talk about the planes we will probably get, GL, Puffscab, etc jump all over it.

 

[FBN0223]

Predictable, but somehow entertaining....

 

[Schwanker]

We'll have 16 777s by next March 31st, and probably 20 or more after that. Yeah, and they will all eventually be parked, and then I will bid the Space Shuttle and do Moon turns. You will probably hold long trips to Uranus.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah? And we'll have 68 787s! Probably another 200 after that!

 

[General Lee]

Yeah? And we'll have 68 787s! Probably another 200 after that!

Looks to me like all of your group will be going to Uranus. Also, have you ever seen the "dreamliner?" Has it even flown yet? I am sure we also will order those Space Shuttles, and they will be on our side---and I have seen those fly.....they're cool.......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Looks to me like all of your group will be going to Uranus. Also, have you ever seen the "dreamliner?" Has it even flown yet? I am sure we also will order those Space Shuttles, and they will be on our side---and I have seen those fly.....they're cool.......

Bye Bye--General Lee

What are you 12?

 

[General Lee]

Typical General Lee, they will probably get more, but when NWA guys talk about the planes we will probably get, GL, Puffscab, etc jump all over it.

As you know, I am not always privy to every order discussion with management and Boeing, but I do know that both RA and Bastain have stated we will get more 777s, more 737-700s, and even more MD90s to fill in the gaps. They have noted this at our fun "town hall meetings." The only new planes I have heard about you guys getting are the 787s, and the first one hasn't even flown yet. I would have to say that.......yeah......we seem to have some growth coming our way----PROBABLY.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

What are you 12?

I would love to post something about that.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

I would love to post something about that.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Years old, not millimeters

 

[320AV8R]

General-

I 'find your comments quite egotistic & pompus. You seem to fit the Delta pilot mold....quite full of yourself.

You guys sold us out with the LOA 19 deal.....you know, crawling into bed with RA, at the expense of your UNION brothers. Real weak. Moak is a Mgmt suck up, at best, & you guys follow him like a cult leader.

What goes around comes around. You guys act like you're in a different union, or something. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice..........

 

[General Lee]

General-

I 'find your comments quite egotistic & pompus. You seem to fit the Delta pilot mold....quite full of yourself.

You guys sold us out with the LOA 19 deal.....you know, crawling into bed with RA, at the expense of your UNION brothers. Real weak. Moak is a Mgmt suck up, at best, & you guys follow him like a cult leader.

What goes around comes around. You guys act like you're in a different union, or something. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice..........

You will love Lee Moak. He will be a great MEC Chair for us all. As far as selling you out thanks to LOA 19, we just helped you out. With your delay tactics, we would never have gotten to where we did with LOA 19. Did your guys go on vacation when things needed to be done? You guys weren't prepared when you showed up for the SLI, and it kinda sounds like you are unprepared, period. You don't trust each other (10 observers in the negotiations), and you don't trust anyone. Thank Gawd Steenland is leaving, right? You are welcome. I think we know what is good and right for us all, and we are taking the proactive stance to make sure WE ALL get something better. Let's just make sure we fence the DC9s towards you guys, and we'll all be good....ya hear?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[320AV8R]

We were prepared. We just didn't accept your ridiculous SLI proposal. We have SLI software that shot holes through your proposals. I've seen your proposals & the software results. You proposed 1000 phantom DAL pilots, yet to be hired, to be integrated with our bottom guys? Please, are you kidding?

Trust each other? Our MEC has been UNANIMOUS in all its decisions.

Lee Moak? I spoke to Lee Moak for 15 minutes on the phone. Seems like he wasn't prepared for a fight.....thought we'd roll over & take the cash, at the expense of the SLI. Sorry Lee....TRIX are for kids. He said he wanted an "expedited" joint contract. Only 3 days of talks scheduled in mid to late June. Quite a UNION LEADER, that Lee Moak.

Instead of pompous rhetoric, you should really try to examine the situation in an unbiased fashion, (if you can). You guys couldn't stand the heat; ran into Mgmt's arms, at the expense of other UNION members. But hey, if you can live with that......

 

[737 Pylt]

General-

I 'find your comments quite egotistic & pompus. You seem to fit the Delta pilot mold....quite full of yourself.

Sorry, but the General doesn't speak for the Delta pilot group....He has made that loud and clear, he forms his own opinions, and most of you clowns jump right after his bait!

You guys sold us out with the LOA 19 deal.....you know, crawling into bed with RA, at the expense of your UNION brothers.

Oh, this is rich, just how did you help your union brothers when they went on their mechanics strike?
And to lecture someone about cutting a deal. Maybe if your guys weren't too busy on vacation in Mexico, they might have bothered to show up!

Real weak. Moak is a Mgmt suck up, at best, & you guys follow him like a cult leader.

Stevens & company can't negotiate and put out propoganda lies! How pathetic!

What goes around comes around. You guys act like you're in a different union, or something. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice..........

Its ashame, your MEC is loaded with fools! You've been misled for many years. Even the fact that you still have 3 separate groups (red, blue, green) shows you have no solidarity with each other! Your leadership has settled on arbitrations for the better part of 22 years, how pathetic! But it sure fits the nwa mec spin that they "gave it their best shot."
BTW, when you're brought up to better pay and work rules, I'll look forward to your apology and a big thanks!

737

 

[General Lee]

We were prepared. We just didn't accept your ridiculous SLI proposal. We have SLI software that shot holes through your proposals. I've seen your proposals & the software results. You proposed 1000 phantom DAL pilots, yet to be hired, to be integrated with our bottom guys? Please, are you kidding?

Trust each other? Our MEC has been UNANIMOUS in all its decisions.

Lee Moak? I spoke to Lee Moak for 15 minutes on the phone. Seems like he wasn't prepared for a fight.....thought we'd roll over & take the cash, at the expense of the SLI. Sorry Lee....TRIX are for kids. He said he wanted an "expedited" joint contract. Only 3 days of talks scheduled in mid to late June. Quite a UNION LEADER, that Lee Moak.

Instead of pompous rhetoric, you should really try to examine the situation in an unbiased fashion, (if you can). You guys couldn't stand the heat; ran into Mgmt's arms, at the expense of other UNION members. But hey, if you can live with that......

You talked to Lee Moak on the phone? Wow, sounds like he cares---he actually stopped and talked to you. And why are there only 3 days of talks in June? Delta---management---did that, not Lee Moak. And about the 1000 phantom DL pilots, it looks like we actually may hire that many before the SLI is done---so they really aren't "phantom." Just because you guys won't be hiring any, doesn't mean anything, right? If you want to take forever and go the long route to eventual Relative seniority anyway, then be our guests. Eventually it will come down to the same conclusion, except there will be less NWA planes and more DL planes flying.

And 737pylt is correct, I do speak for MYSELF, not the group, and you guys really do fall for it everytime. Hey, this is entertainment, so try not to blow a gasket.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

....
You guys sold us out with the LOA 19 deal.....you know, crawling into bed with RA, at the expense of your UNION brothers. Real weak. Moak is a Mgmt suck up, at best, & you guys follow him like a cult leader.

What goes around comes around. You guys act like you're in a different union, or something. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice..........

Uh...so you're basing your opinion of DL pilots on one known to be kinda out there user on an anonymous web forum? I've got some choice ocean front property in the Scottsdale suburb of Phoenix that I know you'd really be interested in!

 

[General Lee]

Uh...so you're basing your opinion of DL pilots on one known to be kinda out there user on an anonymous web forum? I've got some choice ocean front property in the Scottsdale suburb of Phoenix that I know you'd really be interested in!

Kinda out there? Hey, I use this site as entertainment. I guess some people do believe what I say though. Northwest pilots obviously think every Delta pilot is rude like me. I have ruined Lubbock layovers for Southwest pilots too. Wow.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[hockeypilot44]

Here's an idea. Maybe the merger won't happen. If it doesn't, Delta will file for bankruptcy first. NWA has more cash on hand and is burning through it at a slower rate than Delta. Delta pilots will take paycuts in bankruptcy leaving NWA pilots making more until NWA files for bankruptcy. Do I think this will happen? No, but it could.

Here's another idea. We remain separate. Neither company files for bankruptcy. NWA has massive attrition, and everyone left skyrockets up the seniority list. Then in 2012, NWA pilots get a new contract paying more than Delta.

I really hope this merger does not go through. It is pretty obvious that the Delta pilots think they are better than the NWA pilots due to their better pay. The NWA contract is better than the Delta contract in some ways. Hourly rate is just not one of them.

That being said the merger probably will go through, but the majority of NWA pilots do not consider "becoming a Delta pilot" a favor or even a good thing.

 

[General Lee]

Here's an idea. Maybe the merger won't happen. If it doesn't, Delta will file for bankruptcy first. NWA has more cash on hand and is burning through it at a slower rate than Delta. Delta pilots will take paycuts in bankruptcy leaving NWA pilots making more until NWA files for bankruptcy. Do I think this will happen? No, but it could.

Here's another idea. We remain separate. Neither company files for bankruptcy. NWA has massive attrition, and everyone left skyrockets up the seniority list. Then in 2012, NWA pilots get a new contract paying more than Delta.

I really hope this merger does not go through. It is pretty obvious that the Delta pilots think they are better than the NWA pilots due to their better pay. The NWA contract is better than the Delta contract in some ways. Hourly rate is just not one of them.

That being said the merger probably will go through, but the majority of NWA pilots do not consider "becoming a Delta pilot" a favor or even a good thing.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Their contract is better than ours????? Really. They saved their pension for their senior guys, and lost most of everything else. Their rules are attrocious, and their pay is substandard, but they kept a frozen pension. Their scope is a bit better, but they are hanging on to old planes that really doesn't help their company anyway. If they get rid of DC9s, then they have to park RJs. Well great, they get to keep the gas guzzling DC9s. That doesn't really help the problem of high gas. Where are the E190s that may be more fuel efficient and have FMS and autothrottles? Their management decided not to replace them, so they are stuck with DC9s. What about the 742s? Even UPS is ditching theirs thanks to the higher fuel costs. NWA can't because they are waiting on 787s, and they are nowhere to be seen. They just cancelled Guangzhou cargo service because they could not bring in enough revenue to justify it. Maybe converting 744s (like other airlines are doing--World, Kalitta, JAL Cargo etc), would help, but they are still waiting for those 787s......burning gas and profits along the way....

And guess what? This merger is very very likely going to happen. Not much we can do about it. Does NW really have more cash on hand? We have $4 billion, and they have $3 billion. Together, it has been stated, we would have $7 billion. (although it may cost $1 billion to get this consumated) After that happens, which planes do you think could (I said COULD) get parked? DL's or NWA's? Why? And do we really think we are BETTER than they are because of our pay? We are paid more, and an arbitrator would look at that. Who brings more to the table? That is a common question an arbitrator asks. We have more widebodies (their 744s may go to the cargo side after they eventually ditch the 742s), higher pay, better rules, better bases, and more pilots. Does that mean we are better? No. It means we are bigger and we are the ones moving this transaction. (our management) If you want to think we are "better" then go ahead. I never said that, we are though bringing more to the table.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PlaneDrvr]

You have no clue what you are talking about. Their contract is better than ours????? Really. They saved their pension for their senior guys, and lost most of everything else. Their rules are attrocious, and their pay is substandard, but they kept a frozen pension. Their scope is a bit better, but they are hanging on to old planes that really doesn't help their company anyway. If they get rid of DC9s, then they have to park RJs. Well great, they get to keep the gas guzzling DC9s. That doesn't really help the problem of high gas. Where are the E190s that may be more fuel efficient and have FMS and autothrottles? Their management decided not to replace them, so they are stuck with DC9s. What about the 742s? Even UPS is ditching theirs thanks to the higher fuel costs. NWA can't because they are waiting on 787s, and they are nowhere to be seen. They just cancelled Guangzhou cargo service because they could not bring in enough revenue to justify it. Maybe converting 744s (like other airlines are doing--World, Kalitta, JAL Cargo etc), would help, but they are still waiting for those 787s......burning gas and profits along the way....

And guess what? This merger is very very likely going to happen. Not much we can do about it. Does NW really have more cash on hand? We have $4 billion, and they have $3 billion. Together, it has been stated, we would have $7 billion. (although it may cost $1 billion to get this consumated) After that happens, which planes do you think could (I said COULD) get parked? DL's or NWA's? Why? And do we really think we are BETTER than they are because of our pay? We are paid more, and an arbitrator would look at that. Who brings more to the table? That is a common question an arbitrator asks. We have more widebodies (their 744s may go to the cargo side after they eventually ditch the 742s), higher pay, better rules, better bases, and more pilots. Does that mean we are better? No. It means we are bigger and we are the ones moving this transaction. (our management) If you want to think we are "better" then go ahead. I never said that, we are though bringing more to the table.


Bye Bye--General Lee

FYI, if they want to convert 744 to cargo, they better start planning that now; as the last I heard, slots for the cargo conversion were running '3 yrs.' out.

The 744 that World got (3) total, the agreement was sign back in 2005 with GE Capital (GECAS), and first a/c was delivered to World spring of this year ('08), from what I understand. Also, from what I understand Connie bought some 744 cargo conversion slots quite a few years ago, figuring he would either have the a/c in the future, or sell the slots for a profit. And, I guess it worked out, as I hear he has recently bought 6-7, 744.

But, then again, I guess You knew all of that.

PD

Also, If I remember correctly, Air France said that they 'might be' interested in investing in the merged DL/NWA, and never formally 'offered' or committed to putting up any money. And, with their recent Quarterly Loss, and their statement that they are seeking other investment opportunities in Europe, they may Not be waiting with the 'checkbook' open. But, I know You are Sure.

 

[Superpilot92]

You have no clue what you are talking about. Their contract is better than ours????? Really. They saved their pension for their senior guys, and lost most of everything else. Their rules are attrocious, and their pay is substandard, but they kept a frozen pension. Their scope is a bit better, but they are hanging on to old planes that really doesn't help their company anyway. If they get rid of DC9s, then they have to park RJs. Well great, they get to keep the gas guzzling DC9s. That doesn't really help the problem of high gas. Where are the E190s that may be more fuel efficient and have FMS and autothrottles? Their management decided not to replace them, so they are stuck with DC9s. What about the 742s? Even UPS is ditching theirs thanks to the higher fuel costs. NWA can't because they are waiting on 787s, and they are nowhere to be seen. They just cancelled Guangzhou cargo service because they could not bring in enough revenue to justify it. Maybe converting 744s (like other airlines are doing--World, Kalitta, JAL Cargo etc), would help, but they are still waiting for those 787s......burning gas and profits along the way....

And guess what? This merger is very very likely going to happen. Not much we can do about it. Does NW really have more cash on hand? We have $4 billion, and they have $3 billion. Together, it has been stated, we would have $7 billion. (although it may cost $1 billion to get this consumated) After that happens, which planes do you think could (I said COULD) get parked? DL's or NWA's? Why? And do we really think we are BETTER than they are because of our pay? We are paid more, and an arbitrator would look at that. Who brings more to the table? That is a common question an arbitrator asks. We have more widebodies (their 744s may go to the cargo side after they eventually ditch the 742s), higher pay, better rules, better bases, and more pilots. Does that mean we are better? No. It means we are bigger and we are the ones moving this transaction. (our management) If you want to think we are "better" then go ahead. I never said that, we are though bringing more to the table.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Echo, Echo GL your Bullshat gets very old. You say in one post you dal guys did what was best for us at NWA but then you follow that up with this BS and how the dc9's and 747s will be parked making the nwa pilots take the brunt of it. Reality check numbnuts if we merge we will ALL be DELTA pilots. Stop you Bullshat and realize we are on the SAME TEAM. You are a joke. uke:

The majority of us down to earth people realize this isnt a fight against one another and i have found the majority of the DAL pilots are pretty rational, you should follow suit. get over yourself