NWA/DAL negotiations update

[jetflier]

Well, it's been too quiet lately, no new news from our MEC.

Assuming that the negotiations are on going at this point, the MEC's are talking, and the cost saving synergies are becoming more important to DAL and NWA executives a joint pilot working agreement should be coming soon.

Any other info ?

 

[FDJ2]

Well, it's been too quiet lately, no new news from our MEC.

Assuming that the negotiations are on going at this point, the MEC's are talking, and the cost saving synergies are becoming more important to DAL and NWA executives a joint pilot working agreement should be coming soon.

Any other info ?

It's all about the $$$. Will the value of the synergies of a joint contract outweigh the costs of the contract? Eventually yes.

Obviously not today, because there hasn't been corporate closure of this merger and we don't have a single operating certificate.

LOA 19 doesn't become effective until the date of corporate closure. Why? Because there is no value in LOA 19 to the company until the date of corporate closure and they can't cash in on its value until then.

Likewise, I doubt that a joint contract will become effective until the synergies of a joint contract can be cashed in on.

When is that?

My guess, sometime between the date of corporate closure or when Delta gets a single operating certificate. It would be great if we get it sooner, we might even negotiate it sooner, but I believe much like LOA 19, it wont become effective until the value can be realized by the corporation.

It's the synergy of a single airline that Delta really wants. Why? Because without a joint contract and single seniority list the fleets can't be rationally deployed and the true value of the merger exploited.

It's not about labor strife at NWA this summer. Does anyone really believe Delta cares about labor strife at NWA this summer? It's about the efficient use of the fleets, people and routes. That's where the money is and that's why we'll get a joint contract.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

LOA 19 doesn't become effective until the date of corporate closure. Why? Because there is no value in LOA 19 to the company until the date of corporate closure and they can't cash in on its value until then.

Likewise, I doubt that a joint contract will become effective until the synergies of a joint contract can be cashed in on.

When is that?

My guess, sometime between the date of corporate closure or when Delta gets a single operating certificate. It would be great if we get it sooner, we might even negotiate it sooner, but I believe much like LOA 19, it wont become effective until the value can be realized by the corporation.

It's the synergy of a single airline that Delta really wants. Why? Because without a joint contract and single seniority list the fleets can't be rationally deployed and the true value of the merger exploited.

I thought, according to you guys, "LOA 19 will never go into effect because it will be superceded by a joint contract."

Sounds like you're no longer saying that. Sounds more like you're saying LOA 19 will go into effect at DCC to give Delta pilots a raise while NWA pilots wait around for the jointly negotiated contract to kick in sometime down the road.

Sounds a little like "harmonization" to me.

 

[Schwanker]

It's not about labor strife at NWA this summer. Does anyone really believe Delta cares about labor strife at NWA this summer? It's about the efficient use of the fleets, people and routes. That's where the money is and that's why we'll get a joint contract.

Will Delta care about labor strife after "date of corporate closure?" How are those new BK rules anyways?

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

I thought, according to you guys, "LOA 19 will never go into effect because it will be superceded by a joint contract."

Sounds like you're no longer saying that. Sounds more like you're saying LOA 19 will go into effect at DCC to give Delta pilots a raise while NWA pilots wait around for the jointly negotiated contract to kick in sometime down the road.

Sounds a little like "harmonization" to me.

That's what FDJ2 is dreaming of. After all, he is far superior to all us lowly NWA folks who've wished we were Delta pilots our whole careers.

KEEP DELTA YOUR DELTA

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Keep your eye on the ball. Who cares about pay rates, think sli. Pay comes and goes but an unfair sli last forever. A long harmonization period will be a minor inconveniance as compared to a lopsided sli.

I thought, according to you guys, "LOA 19 will never go into effect because it will be superceded by a joint contract."

Sounds like you're no longer saying that. Sounds more like you're saying LOA 19 will go into effect at DCC to give Delta pilots a raise while NWA pilots wait around for the jointly negotiated contract to kick in sometime down the road.

Sounds a little like "harmonization" to me.

 

[tblosser]

Keep your eye on the ball. Who cares about pay rates, think sli. Pay comes and goes but an unfair sli last forever. A long harmonization period will be a minor inconveniance as compared to a lopsided sli.

I am sure the republic guys would agree with this.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I agree. I am blue(post nw/rep)

I am sure the republic guys would agree with this.

 

[Superpilot92]

Well the update i got said that both MECs should be meeting with DAL mgmt to hopefully present the joint contract to them on Thursday. We shall see.

 

[NuGuy]

Well, it's been too quiet lately, no new news from our MEC.

Assuming that the negotiations are on going at this point, the MEC's are talking, and the cost saving synergies are becoming more important to DAL and NWA executives a joint pilot working agreement should be coming soon.

Any other info ?

Heyas JF,

Contact your P2P rep. Things are moving along, and we should know what direction we're going by the end of the week.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

It's about the efficient use of the fleets, people and routes. That's where the money is and that's why we'll get a joint contract.

Yes and let me add a tidbit that just came together in some data (that one of the smarter folks I know sent me, I can't take credit for his work).

NWA's fleet utilization is much lower than Delta's. Comparing Apples to Apples, DL's 757 operate on average 13.2 block per day. NWA's number is 9.7. DL's MD88's go 11.1 while the average DC9 is less than 7.5.

I've wondered how Delta parked so many jets and still kept block hours. The answer was hugely increased utilization - apparently a factor in efficiency that remains untapped at NWA. If my read on this data is correct, no wonder the NWA fleet could take a whack job on the -9's and still need more pilots to fly 30% more block hours on the rest of the fleet.

I do not know that a SLI is necessary to get the short term gain on NWA's fleet. This looks like a scheduling and market issue more than whether Occam can teach me to fly an airplane. But, Occam may have Superpilot 92 in a class real soon.

Delta's 777's and 737 orders make good sense. Looking at the numbers they make even better sense to backfill some of NWA's jets that have uncompetitive performance (the 742's, DC9-30's and 40's). By delaying a SLI, the NWA MEC is playing a game of Chicken. They surely have the numbers and have to know what CASM of 11.1 cents per mile mean in a market of similar aircraft with costs in the 5.5 CASM range means.

In balance, the blue skies on the horizon for NWA are found in the relatively low utilization numbers on NWA's 757-200's and A319/320s.

P.S. The 757-300 is the most efficient jet in the fleet and it is a NWA jet. Wonder if we could find more 757's anywhere

 

[Superpilot92]

I do not know that a SLI is necessary to get the short term gain on NWA's fleet. This looks like a scheduling and market issue more than whether Occam can teach me to fly an airplane. But, Occam may have Superpilot 92 in a class real soon.

First, its important in the near term to get the SLI done so we can move forward as 1 pilot group. Keeping us separate does nothing but further pin us against one another. On the bus comment, I can hold the bus now but i dont want to bid it because of the seat lock i would incur. Hopefully we will know more later this week if we can knock out a joint contract. We shall see.

 

[~~~^~~~]

First, its important in the near term to get the SLI done so we can move forward as 1 pilot group. Keeping us separate does nothing but further pin us against one another. On the bus comment, I can hold the bus now but i dont want to bid it because of the seat lock i would incur. Hopefully we will know more later this week if we can knock out a joint contract. We shall see.

You will not have a seat lock in a displacement. If you are waiting for a 777, 767, 757 or 737 type, on your ticket, your head work is excellent.

Immediate NWA pilot parity is expected less would not be ratified.

You probably will not find many junior Delta guys who are looking forward to SLI, despite the fact we know it needs to happen. I just hope there is good news hidden in NWA's low fleet utilization numbers.

 

[FBN0223]

You probably will not find many junior Delta guys who are looking forward to SLI, despite the fact we know it needs to happen. I just hope there is good news hidden in NWA's low fleet utilization numbers.

Good points with utilization. Also the DC-9 coming on the Delta property and then retiring won't be as bad as it may appear. Displacements from the DC-9 to other positions is something junior NWA pilots are bearing the brunt of now and through the rest of 2008. By time the DC-9 shows up at Delta the fleet will be small, around fifty aircraft with probably less than 400 pilots.

 

[General Lee]

Good points with utilization. Also the DC-9 coming on the Delta property and then retiring won't be as bad as it may appear. Displacements from the DC-9 to other positions is something junior NWA pilots are bearing the brunt of now and through the rest of 2008. By time the DC-9 shows up at Delta the fleet will be small, around fifty aircraft with probably less than 400 pilots.

Well, I still would like to be Superpilot 92's Captain on that -9. We would have a BLAST in Minot, Flint, and Lansing. Heck, I bet we could "rip the town a new one" in Grand Forks, and watch out Sioux Falls! Me and Super92, we will be KICKIN some Arse!!!! We'll show YOU---FARGO!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

Displacements from the DC-9 to other positions is something junior NWA pilots are bearing the brunt of now and through the rest of 2008. By time the DC-9 shows up at Delta the fleet will be small, around fifty aircraft with probably less than 400 pilots.

Fleet Plan memo from the VP Flight Ops April 3, 2008 says 58 aircraft and 630 (300 Capt/330 FO) pilots by end of 08'

 

[FDJ2]

I thought, according to you guys, "LOA 19 will never go into effect because it will be superceded by a joint contract."

Who said that?

LOA 19 is just a side letter of agreement. Hopefully it will be superceded by a joint contract, but that's not guaranteed.

Sounds like you're no longer saying that. Sounds more like you're saying LOA 19 will go into effect at DCC to give Delta pilots a raise while NWA pilots wait around for the jointly negotiated contract to kick in sometime down the road.

Sounds a little like "harmonization" to me.

Delta pilots make more than NWA pilots even without LOA 19. LOA 19 is not a joint contract. With or with out LOA 19 Delta pilots make more than NWA pilots. Only a mutually beneficial joint contract would resolve that issue. Nothing new there.

You needed to be brought up to Delta pay from the beginning. Harmonized or not. The overwhelming majority of joint negotiating leverage will be used to bring you to parity.

Hopefully this is not the first time you've considered this, or been told this, but there is no guarantee we'll get a joint contract soon or that you'll be brought up to parity on day one. There is even no guarantee that the harmonization schedule that was offered by management in April will be available in June. We might all want it, but it may not happen. Hopefully it will, and we'll get it ASAP, but there is no guarantee.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

As you and ual used our hard earned pay raises from our strike in 98 as a springboard to uals 2000 contract and your 2001 rates, you should understand pay rates come and go. However seniority is forever. A fair sli is our concern. If oil continues its relentless rise and our recession deepens, your loa19 rates will never come to fruition before the paycuts come. There is a better than 50/50 chance that the payrates of the combined airline will be equal to or less than our current rates.

Delta pilots make more than NWA pilots even without LOA 19. LOA 19 is not a joint contract. With or with out LOA 19 Delta pilots make more than NWA pilots. Only a mutually beneficial joint contract would resolve that issue. Nothing new there.

You needed to be brought up to Delta pay from the beginning. Harmonized or not. The overwhelming majority of joint negotiating leverage will be used to bring you to parity.

Hopefully this is not the first time you've considered this, or been told this, but there is no guarantee we'll get a joint contract soon or that you'll be brought up to parity on day one. There is even no guarantee that the harmonization schedule that was offered by management in April will be available in June. We might all want it, but it may not happen. Hopefully it will, and we'll get it ASAP, but there is no guarantee.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

As you and ual used our hard earned pay raises from our strike in 98 as a springboard to uals 2000 contract and your 2001 rates, you should understand pay rates come and go. However seniority is forever. A fair sli is our concern. If oil continues its relentless rise and our recession deepens, your loa19 rates will never come to fruition before the paycuts come. There is a better than 50/50 chance that the payrates of the combined airline will be equal to or less than our current rates.

First don't work for either carrier (DAL or NWA), but Cobra, you are absolutely right. Payrates/raises can come and go, but 'seniority' cannot be sold, unless You Give It Away.

And, seniority will be the most important thing going forward, for both sides. With oil at $120-140/bbl (or higher), and a looming recession, slowing of passenger travel, including Int'l travel (recent study showed First/Business class travel to Europe is down 4-5% in the first 4 mths of this year); with all of this taken into account, do you really think the New DAL (post merger) will operate a 750+ mainline a/c fleet???

Do you really think so??

New a/c deliveries can come, but merely replace older a/c that are retired, or worse yet, one new a/c and 2 older retired.

NEVER give ANY on Seniority!! A pay raise is nice, but seniority determines whether you have a job tomorrow, or next year.

For what its worth.

 

[General Lee]

First don't work for either carrier (DAL or NWA), but Cobra, you are absolutely right. Payrates/raises can come and go, but 'seniority' cannot be sold, unless You Give It Away.

And, seniority will be the most important thing going forward, for both sides. With oil at $120-140/bbl (or higher), and a looming recession, slowing of passenger travel, including Int'l travel (recent study showed First/Business class travel to Europe is down 4-5% in the first 4 mths of this year); with all of this taken into account, do you really think the New DAL (post merger) will operate a 750+ mainline a/c fleet???

Do you really think so??

New a/c deliveries can come, but merely replace older a/c that are retired, or worse yet, one new a/c and 2 older retired.

NEVER give ANY on Seniority!! A pay raise is nice, but seniority determines whether you have a job tomorrow, or next year.

For what its worth.

That's exactly what the USAir Easties thought, and then they got RELATIVE SENIORITY.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[stlflyguy]

NEVER give ANY on Seniority!! A pay raise is nice, but seniority determines whether you have a job tomorrow, or next year.

Interesting. ALPA in '01 insisted the TWA pilots HAD to give up their seniority. I wonder why????


stlflyguy

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

That is my point. Just as our 9s will be parked and hopefully replaced (if our dalpa bros don't give up anymore scope) so will the 76s, which will be replaced with our 78 orders(does anyone think that little ol nwa ordered 18 firm w/50 options for themselves)This airline, when combined will be at best the same size today or more than likely 15-20% smaller. This is why sli is more important than pay.

First don't work for either carrier (DAL or NWA), but Cobra, you are absolutely right. Payrates/raises can come and go, but 'seniority' cannot be sold, unless You Give It Away.

And, seniority will be the most important thing going forward, for both sides. With oil at $120-140/bbl (or higher), and a looming recession, slowing of passenger travel, including Int'l travel (recent study showed First/Business class travel to Europe is down 4-5% in the first 4 mths of this year); with all of this taken into account, do you really think the New DAL (post merger) will operate a 750+ mainline a/c fleet???

Do you really think so??

New a/c deliveries can come, but merely replace older a/c that are retired, or worse yet, one new a/c and 2 older retired.

NEVER give ANY on Seniority!! A pay raise is nice, but seniority determines whether you have a job tomorrow, or next year.

For what its worth.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That's exactly what the USAir Easties thought, and then they got RELATIVE SENIORITY.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Actually, relative seniority by equipment. Delta's offer was much better.

Extremely pleased with the NWA response because I would prefer to have sex with myself than the alternative being contemplated.

Now can someone explain the NWA strategy of stapling Compass with a 5 year fence. I'm all for getting them on the list, but what's the angle?

 

[Jmoney]

I hear....

Actually relative seniority, by equipment. Delta's offer was much better. Very pleased with the NWA response because I would prefer to have sex with myself than the alternative being contimplated.

I hear General Lee has sex with himself purty near every time he gets up in the a.m.-spanks that little bitty monkey for all of 15 secs and then he's is all warmed up to hit the ol' keyboard and drop a few more pearls of wisdom on us here......

-Pretty much a self-fluffer, eh Gen?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

That is my point. Just as our 9s will be parked and hopefully replaced (if our dalpa bros don't give up anymore scope) so will the 76s, which will be replaced with our 78 orders(does anyone think that little ol nwa ordered 18 firm w/50 options for themselves)This airline, when combined will be at best the same size today or more than likely 15-20% smaller. This is why sli is more important than pay.

Cobra, I believe more like the latter, at least 15% smaller (a minimum of 10%, but probably 15-20%) and that would mean at least 1200-1500 less pilots than the combined total (maybe as many as 2000 less). And, also, you hit the nail right on the head, Boeing designed the 787 to be a replacement for the 767 (and also the 757ER), so once the 787 come, how long do you think many of those DL 76s will be staying around??

Again, don't work for either, so don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm with you NWA guys, get something very 'fair' for your seniority, that respects your career progression, and Nothing less. Stay Strong and always fight the good fight guys.

PD

 

[~~~^~~~]

That is my point. Just as our 9s will be parked and hopefully replaced (if our dalpa bros don't give up anymore scope) so will the 76s, which will be replaced with our 78 orders(does anyone think that little ol nwa ordered 18 firm w/50 options for themselves)This airline, when combined will be at best the same size today or more than likely 15-20% smaller. This is why sli is more important than pay.

Delta would not be 20% smaller if not for the merger. It isn't Delta's DC9's being replaced by Compass and Mesaba.

767's getting $1Billion worth of seat, IFE and winglet upgrades are not getting phased out. That's just silly talk there.

The 787 has a different role. To wit:
* The Atlantic was once the providence of 747's
* The 767 came along and was the Atlantic "RJ" providing better frequency to smaller markets & hub bypass.
* The 747 flies the Pacific because the 767 does not have the range. The 787, as you point out, is very near a 767, but has the range to do the Pacific.
* The 747's seat mile costs are high, but NWA thinks the 777 is too large for their needs.

Add up those factors and see what you get.

 

[General Lee]

Cobra, I believe more like the latter, at least 15% smaller (a minimum of 10%, but probably 15-20%) and that would mean at least 1200-1500 less pilots than the combined total (maybe as many as 2000 less). And, also, you hit the nail right on the head, Boeing designed the 787 to be a replacement for the 767 (and also the 757ER), so once the 787 come, how long do you think many of those DL 76s will be staying around??

Again, don't work for either, so don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm with you NWA guys, get something very 'fair' for your seniority, that respects your career progression, and Nothing less. Stay Strong and always fight the good fight guys.

PD

I don't think you are right. Our main problem at Delta right now is too many RJs, period. We already dumped our unprofitable fleets, consisting of 737-200s, 737-300s, and 767-200s. What we have today is a pretty efficient fleet, fitting almost every niche, except a 100 seater. Our smallest plane (not including the new 737-700s we will start getting in July) currently is the MD88, and they are more advanced than any MD80 out there, and have low lease rates thanks to BK.

NWA, on the otherhand, has a 100 seater that could be used on some ATL routes, and the only liability I see over there is the older 742s, which even UPS dumped. Could our management dump the DC9s? Sure, but they have said they would like a 100 seater, and we can't get our hands on any right now---even E190s are out of reach for awhile. The 742s could be replaced with NWA 744s eventually, which are proven to be better cargo haulers----even World Airways and Kalitta have gotten a couple recently. The smaller hubs that could take a hit are not very "mainline intensive"---meaning their possible closures would not be a very large hit on mainline (DL has 56 daily mainline flights out of CVG---that's it, MEM is similar). The other hubs will probably stay about the same size, with LAX growing. I don't see much downsizing, instead with an emphasis on growing the INTL side and reducing RJs on the domestic, and maybe even adding some MD90s in a year or so.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Delta would not be 20% smaller if not for the merger. It isn't Delta's DC9's being replaced by Compass and Mesaba.

767's getting $1Billion worth of seat, IFE and winglet upgrades are not getting phased out. That's just silly talk there.

The 787 has a different role. To wit:
* The Atlantic was once the providence of 747's
* The 767 came along and was the Atlantic "RJ" providing better frequency to smaller markets & hub bypass.
* The 747 flies the Pacific because the 767 does not have the range. The 787, as you point out, is very near a 767, but has the range to do the Pacific.
* The 747's seat mile costs are high, but NWA thinks the 777 is too large for their needs.

Add up those factors and see what you get.

I don't think Compass E175s or Mesaba CR9s could replace DC9-50s. (maybe not DC9-40s either) I know they are getting rid of approx 30 DC9-30s, and those are closer in seats than the other models. Our 737-700s have about the same number of seats as the DC94's and -50s, but they have different missions---think Vail and Quito.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General:

Steenland's comments are public record. He planned to replace the DC9's and NWA's current fleet plan reflects this.

The E175 and the CRJ900's are very nearly 100 seat aircraft. They are close enough to fit the need and the CRJ900's are at least 8% more efficient on a CASM than any 100 seater out there. ... AND they are pulling some capacity out to increase revenue AND airlines like SkyWest are willing to take on the capital expense of the fleet acquisition AND Delta wants the walk away flexibility in case a really good 100 seater does hit the market in 5 to 10 years.

The 737-700 fits where the CRJ900 is performance limited.

100 seats isn't magic. 76 seats is close enough and a 737-700 is close enough, for now.

If DC9's could be operated profitably, AirTran would still have theirs. But AirTran could not beat MD88's with 9's and Delta can't beat anybody with in any market DC9's. To do so is to ensure an operational loss.

Some of the NWA pilots have realized that the DC9's are going away and think it will have happened by the time the SLI is worked out. I'm hoping they are right.

 

[michael707767]

Actually, relative seniority by equipment. Delta's offer was much better.

excellent point. I think we offered too much already.