NWA/DAL Merger may go ahead dispite pilots

[Rough67]

You are tiresome.

.....

 

[Heavy Set]

You are tiresome.

Great response with no meaning. Maybe you need to rest for awhile. People who can't debate Gen Lee often react this way.

 

[Fly4hire]

The DAL position was and is relative seniority. Do you have a problem with that?

Not at all! However without a few of the pesky details like accounting for attrition and productivity it's not relative at all.

This was not intended to be an "opener" where you posture for advantage over your fellow pilots.

Damn! How dare those NWA pilots who (are one step above CMR) not let terms be dictated to them, and fall to their collective knees to be your seniority bitches.

Unfortunately that has been the history of the NWA merger committee since the Republic merger. How many arbitrations has that committee gone into? How many negotiated agreements in the same time period?

When both sides are completely intractable, what choice do you have? It will likely be the same with NWA/DAL

As far as the "leaks" go, the only comm committee spokesman making statements in the papers has been from NWA.

Interesting comment - there has been a concerted campaign by DAL pilots, and other "unofficial" sources to paint the NWA position as totally unreasonable and overreaching. This is IMO a deliberate attempt to sway public opinion into the DAL camp, and the only NWA Comm. statements have been to refute some of the more outrageous allegations over SLI.

Nothing in the press is accurate or complete, yet you seem very willing to seize on what has been reported when it's to your advantage.

 

[737 Pylt]

Not at all! However without a few of the pesky details like accounting for attrition and productivity it's not relative at all.

I guess you know all the details then? Please all wise knowing one, share them...

Damn! How dare those NWA pilots who (are one step above CMR) not let terms be dictated to them, and fall to their collective knees to be your seniority bitches.

Wow, you have an inferiority complex. I'm wondering where that was printed or stated by DAL or DAL's mec. Oh that's right. A loudmouth stated it on an anonymous aviation board.......<yawn>

When both sides are completely intractable, what choice do you have? It will likely be the same with NWA/DAL

No, when one side puffs its chest out, and has been driven to more than 20 arbitrations, actions speak louder than words!

Interesting comment - there has been a concerted campaign by DAL pilots, and other "unofficial" sources to paint the NWA position as totally unreasonable and overreaching. This is IMO a deliberate attempt to sway public opinion into the DAL camp, and the only NWA Comm. statements have been to refute some of the more outrageous allegations over SLI.

Nothing in the press is accurate or complete, yet you seem very willing to seize on what has been reported when it's to your advantage.

You completely contradict yourself in this last paragraph. Its actually quite laughable. Glad you're not part of the negotiating or communication comittee. It would be the equilivant of "baghad bob."

737

 

[FDJ2]

Not at all! However without a few of the pesky details like accounting for attrition and productivity it's not relative at all.

You might be right. We should consider pesky details such as pre-merger attrition as well as pre merger pay, and pre merger access to premium flying.

Instead of merging by pay rates, which would overwhelmingly favor DAL pilots let's do it by categories/type of flying brought to the table and then adjust for attrition.

Looking at recent category lists 40% of DAL pilots are in wide bodied international categories compared to 28% of NWA pilots. So the top of the list ought to be front loaded with DAL pilots due to our larger percentage of premium international flying.

Next we move to larger gauge aircraft such as the 757 and the DAL 767/757 categories.

Approximately 21% of NWA positions are in the 757 category compared to 25% of the DAL list. So we slot these guys together.

We're now thru 65% of the DAL list and 49% of the NWA list.

Moving down to the medium to small narrow bodied domestic categories we can slot in 59% of NWA pilots with the with the bottom 35% of the DAL list, then bringing up the bottom we place 2% of the NWA list to account for the second officer positions.

The next step would be to account for differences in attrition over time. Over the next 10 years NWA brings in, about 600 more retirements than DAL.

Now we can bring in some adjustment for the contractul gains the NWA pilots receive vs the contractual gains the DAL pilots bring, as well as, depreciation on the value of attrition due to the decade it would take to bear any meaningful value as well as the fact that we aren't looking at the next decade when DAL retirements are greater than NWA retirements.

So we only count about 1/3rd of it or two hundred numbers and spread those two hundred numbers throughout the entire list.

Problem solved. We address the value of NWA attrition over the next decade and we address the fact that DAL pilots bring a richer contract and significantly more higher paying positions to the merger.

 

[motch]

Sir..
You are making to much sense!

That will not be allowed here on FI~

Great post...

motch

 

[Fly4hire]

Looking at recent category lists 40% of DAL pilots are in wide bodied international categories compared to 28% of NWA pilots. So the top of the list ought to be front loaded with DAL pilots due to our larger percentage of premium international flying.

If you are like us, you F/O augment on WB flying,which means that with 40% to 28%, we bring more Captain positions to the table. Many pilots consider flying NB Captain "premium" compared to WB F/O.

 

[NuGuy]

Not at all! However without a few of the pesky details like accounting for attrition and productivity it's not relative at all.

Heyas F4H,

You are right on the mark about the productivity, which is keyed directly to staffing. NWA staffs it's flying with about %20 less pilots per position than DAL.

One of the meger guys was explaining this in detal, and it's HUGE.

What's worse is that when the jump is made to the "collective contract", the benefit in advancement the NWA guys see from the improved staffing is diluted by the DAL guys, right along with the attrition and retirement picture.

That's been a missing part of the big picture. The NWA guys bring with them an airline that is run VERY lean, and even with the ridiculously lean staffing formula, it's STILL understaffed at that.

ANY increase in staffing formula will force the creation HUNDEREDS of positions within the current NWA fleet. To think that the DAL guys wouldn't bid any of those positions is absurd since half would be captain postions, and a massive amount of widebody FO positions (due to widebody augment).

To have REALLY accurate ratio integration, we'd need to match the DAL staffing by inflating the NWA side with about 800-1000 pilots. So the obvious way to fix this is to run right out, hire a 1000 guys and say "ok, ratio THIS".

Or we could come up with a more pragmatic solution, which, thankfully, none of us here, NWA or DAL, are in a position to do. Cooler heads will prevail...

Nu

 

[JOPILOT]

If you are like us, you F/O augment on WB flying,which means that with 40% to 28%, we bring more Captain positions to the table. Many pilots consider flying NB Captain "premium" compared to WB F/O.

Not to sound like GL, but many of the captain positions you speak of are in the DC9 which is going to be the first AC to be replaced and by what no one really knows at this point, but I understand your point of view...JP

 

[Draginass]

When the recession hits full force this fall, the seniority list integration is going to take on a whole new meaning. Is anyone numbskull enough to believe that there won't be furloughs??

No layoffs? Yea, right. Don't worry about the seniority integration . . . . . we're all part of the pilot family, right??? Yea, right. It depends on who still has their job and who doesn't.

 

[NuGuy]

Not to sound like GL, but many of the captain positions you speak of are in the DC9 which is going to be the first AC to be replaced and by what no one really knows at this point, but I understand your point of view...JP

Heyas,

Not anytime soon. The current timeline, which the company has been sticking to, shows them flying out to 2021, and RA has hinted that more might come out of the desert to fill the 100 seat role.

I've got a beater car that I drive around town. It's 11 years old, so it's hardly state of the art. But it's clean, safe, the interior is nice, the AC works and I can work on it myself without any special tools. Gas mileage could be better, but since I only drive around town, it doesn't really matter much.

I could go out and buy a new car to replace it, but the little bit in gas money I save (even with prices such as they are) would NEVER make it worth while.

Same thing...

Nu

 

[Fly4hire]

Not to sound like GL, but many of the captain positions you speak of are in the DC9 which is going to be the first AC to be replaced and by what no one really knows at this point, but I understand your point of view...JP

Actually the bulk are on the A320 and 757 (which we consider a NB), of which we have far more than DC9's.

Honestly, the only way I see this thing working out to both parties satisfaction is with conditions and restrictions for a minimum of 10 years.

 

[737 Pylt]

Honestly, the only way I see this thing working out to both parties satisfaction is with conditions and restrictions for a minimum of 10 years.

I think that's something we all could agree upon!

737

 

[FDJ2]

If you are like us, you F/O augment on WB flying,which means that with 40% to 28%, we bring more Captain positions to the table. Many pilots consider flying NB Captain "premium" compared to WB F/O.

The most recent interpretation of ALPA merger policy differentiated not by position but by category.

But your idea of postion integration might work also.

BTW DAL brings more widebodied international captain positions, 1034 vs 634 for NWA.

I would slot in your 757 category with our 767/757 category because I believe that ultimately your 757s would pay the same as a DAL 767

Disclaimer is that my category list is not verified current, just published lists I have. If you have different numbers great, please share them. These numbers also reflect active pilot positions. They could be converted to percentages and married to the total lists. It's the idea of preserving bidding rights and expectations that count.

This is what I believe to be a stove pipe method, where you slot in by what equipment a seniority number can hold based strictly on the seniority number:

International Wide Bodied Captains:

DAL 1034
NWA 634

Large category 767/757

DAL 791
NWA 523

Narrow Bodied Captains 737/A320/A319/MD88/DC9

DAL 1211
NWA 1242

International First Officer

DAL 1506
NWA 721

Large Category First Officer 767/757

DAL 771
NWA 501

Narrow bodied First Officer

DAL 992
NWA 1144

Second Officers

DAL 0
NWA 135

Like I previously said, accounting for attrition and then depreciating a portion of it due to the fact it takes 5-10 years to have any meaningful impact as well as the fact that DAL brings more attrition in the next decade and more contractual value should be considered.

I would give the NWA pilots 200 numbers starting with 135 at the bottom so that the NWA pilots don't have 135 stapled to the bottom. The rest would be towards the top of the list so the rest of the NWA pilots could also see some benefit from it.

 

[Fly4hire]

FD2J,

I appreciate your earnest head scratching on ideas (even if I don't agree on all points), but ultimately it will be decided well above our pay grades.

Someone sage once said an airline career is like being in the back seat of an old rickety car with bad brakes careening down a mountain road, and that you have about as much control over where it goes. Same in a merger, but no one is driving....

Good luck to us all, and hopefully we can get a deal where everyone is equally unhappy.

 

[NuGuy]

FDJ,

You've got to multiply the NWA positions by a modifier that credits the number of "empty seats" that the NWA pilots bring into the new staffing formula. Currently, NWA staffs on average 17-20 percent below the current DAL.

Do that, and your numbers look different.

Nu

 

[viper548]

You should also account for the fact that 747 SO isn't the most junior position and it pays about what 757 FO pays.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ,

You've got to multiply the NWA positions by a modifier that credits the number of "empty seats" that the NWA pilots bring into the new staffing formula. Currently, NWA staffs on average 17-20 percent below the current DAL.

Do that, and your numbers look different.

Nu

I've heard the numbers are between 350-500.

Regardless, why should you exclusively enjoy the benefits of the staffing formula?

Who brings that new staffing formula to the merger? The DAL PWA or the NWA PWA?

Did you have an expectation of that staffing formula pre merger?

That staffing formula is brought to you by the DAL pilots. You conceded quite a bit in order to save your pensions. That was a priority you had. Sorry, but piggy backing off the DAL manning formula to the detriment of the DAL pilots won't work

I'm not saying that the DAL pilots should enjoy the 17-20%, since we brought it. I'm saying that we both should enjoy it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Heyas F4H,

You are right on the mark about the productivity, which is keyed directly to staffing.

That's been a missing part of the big picture.

To have REALLY accurate ratio integration, we'd need to match the DAL staffing by inflating the NWA side with about 800-1000 pilots. So the obvious way to fix this is to run right out, hire a 1000 guys and say "ok, ratio THIS".

Nu

Now that made me laugh out loud. Not only do you think NWA pilots should get a ratio that puts them in aircraft far above what they could currently hold, but we need to ratio NWA pilots that have not even thought of applying yet for all the NWA openings that might happen someday if no airplanes are retired and NWA staffs their airline to operate their schedule.

Could I apply for one of your phantom pilot positions and bid back to ATL 767? Where do I apply for a phantom seniority slot? I like to have one of those especially if it meant I got to fly for Delta and be senior to a bunch of other 767 pilots who have been on board for a decade, um, sounds like a fair plan you got there....

 

[Noserider76]

Honestly, the only way I see this thing working out to both parties satisfaction is with conditions and restrictions for a minimum of 10 years.

I agree 100%. It will protect everyone's current quality of life/expectations as much as possible and it will save the company a ton of money on base transfers and the associated training costs. Every move between one company base and another's will generate a training event since we share virtually no fleet in common.

If they are trying the largest airline merger ever attempted it seems almost a no-brainer to leave as much status quo as possible for a good long while. It will limit the companies ability to move equipment but would do a lot for everyone's peace of mind.

Anyone know if these guys are even still talking?

 

[FDJ2]

You should also account for the fact that 747 SO isn't the most junior position and it pays about what 757 FO pays.

Do you want to integrate via pay rates or position? Be consistent.

I can assure you the DAL pilots would prefer via pay rates. 516 DAL F/O positions pay more than NWA DC-9 Captain. Should we slot NWA DC-9 Captains behind DAL 777 and 767-400 F/Os? The real kicker in pay rate integration is when we slot in all the DAL M88 f/Os with the NWA 757 F/Os and then staple the rest of the NWA narrow bodied F/Os. Do you really want to go down the road of slotting by pay rates and not positions?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nevermind....

 

[viper548]

I think it should be DOH or percentile. I'd prefer 40 year fences

 

[~~~^~~~]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twincitynights/402314865/

Yes, 40 year fences please.

 

[jonjuan]

I am surprised I haven't yet heard of the skin cancer attrition argument on this thread. We all know that DALs Southern based living pilots enjoy the sun much more than the icebox pilots of NWA who rarely see the sun, except between July 23 and August 9 every year.
With skin cancer being the 5th biggest cancer killer every year and knowing that people who play in the sun (Buckheadeans) are more susceptible to skin cancer every year, it stands to reason that DAL pilots will have a greater rate of attrition due to loss of medical or death from skin cancer than their NWA ice fishing counterparts. Although you could make the case that more NWA pilots lose their lives every year (than DAL pilots) from falling through the ice while fishing on Lake Minnetonka.
Of course, General Lee may need his upgrade sooner rather than later as he'll suffer from debilitating carpal tunnel syndrome as he approaches 15,000 posts and will lose his medical. Then again, maybe he simply dictates all his FI posts to his wife.

I wonder if both MECs have considered these variables.

 

[DTW320]

Do you want to integrate via pay rates or position? Be consistent.

I can assure you the DAL pilots would prefer via pay rates. 516 DAL F/O positions pay more than NWA DC-9 Captain. Should we slot NWA DC-9 Captains behind DAL 777 and 767-400 F/Os? The real kicker in pay rate integration is when we slot in all the DAL M88 f/Os with the NWA 757 F/Os and then staple the rest of the NWA narrow bodied F/Os. Do you really want to go down the road of slotting by pay rates and not positions?

DAL has 516 777 F/O's? That IS a heck of a staffing formula you got there.

NWA DC9 CA = $126
DAL 767400FO=$123

 

[FDJ2]

DAL has 516 777 F/O's? That IS a heck of a staffing formula you got there.

NWA DC9 CA = $126
DAL 767400FO=$123

Ooops my bad 206 777 first officers at 130/hr and 310 767-400 first officers at $123/hr + 9% DC plan contribution + 2% 401K contribution + $3/hr international override. I'm not sure what DC, 401K contributions and international over ride a NWA DC-9 captain gets.

DAL 767-400 F/O: $126/hr

NWA 747-400 F/O $122/hr
NWA 747-200 F/O $116/hr
NWA A330 F/O $110/hr

etc.

Any way you look at it an integration methodology which takes pay rates into consideration would favor the DAL pilots more than just looking at position held in comparable categories.

As a good faith concession to the NWA pilots I think it's best to just look at positions each pilot group brings to the table. Starting at wide bodied captain and ending with second officers.

 

[JOPILOT]

I am surprised I haven't yet heard of the skin cancer attrition argument on this thread. We all know that DALs Southern based living pilots enjoy the sun much more than the icebox pilots of NWA who rarely see the sun, except between July 23 and August 9 every year.
With skin cancer being the 5th biggest cancer killer every year and knowing that people who play in the sun (Buckheadeans) are more susceptible to skin cancer every year, it stands to reason that DAL pilots will have a greater rate of attrition due to loss of medical or death from skin cancer than their NWA ice fishing counterparts. Although you could make the case that more NWA pilots lose their lives every year (than DAL pilots) from falling through the ice while fishing on Lake Minnetonka.
Of course, General Lee may need his upgrade sooner rather than later as he'll suffer from debilitating carpal tunnel syndrome as he approaches 15,000 posts and will lose his medical. Then again, maybe he simply dictates all his FI posts to his wife.

I wonder if both MECs have considered these variables.

Not to mention the DAL pilot mortalities from Waffle House intake after late night sim sessions on Virginia Ave. (that is intake of 2nd hand smoke and the counterfeit food they serve)

 

[DTW320]

Ooops my bad 206 777 first officers at 130/hr and 310 767-400 first officers at $123/hr + 9% DC plan contribution + 2% 401K contribution + $3/hr international override. I'm not sure what DC, 401K contributions and international over ride a NWA DC-9 captain gets.

DAL 767-400 F/O: $126/hr

NWA 747-400 F/O $122/hr
NWA 747-200 F/O $116/hr
NWA A330 F/O $110/hr

etc.

FO International override is $3.88/hr at NWA. The targeted DC plan at NWA has been discussed a lot here. 0% for full A-plan types, as much as 20%+ for some low A-plan types. If we are gonna get picky, and consider paltry things like international overide, then we would have to factor in the DC-9 CA getting $189/hr for every hour over 80 (average lines are around 85 hours credit now)

 

[FDJ2]

FO International override is $3.88/hr at NWA. The targeted DC plan at NWA has been discussed a lot here. 0% for full A-plan types, as much as 20%+ for some low A-plan types. If we are gonna get picky, and consider paltry things like international overide, then we would have to factor in the DC-9 CA getting $189/hr for every hour over 80 (average lines are around 85 hours credit now)

Average lines are 85 hours, is that something to be proud of?

We can also consider DAL green slips and inverse asignments, where does it end?

Regardless, I'm not the one who wanted to interject pay rates of second officers into the discussion. Anyway you cut it DAL pilots would fair much better if the integration were based on pay rates than if it were based on what positions were brought to the merger. What positions are brought to the merger is probably a good compromise. Start with wide bodied captains and end with second officers.