NWA/DAL Merger may go ahead dispite pilots

[NuGuy]

FDJ,

You've got to multiply the NWA positions by a modifier that credits the number of "empty seats" that the NWA pilots bring into the new staffing formula. Currently, NWA staffs on average 17-20 percent below the current DAL.

Do that, and your numbers look different.

Nu

 

[viper548]

You should also account for the fact that 747 SO isn't the most junior position and it pays about what 757 FO pays.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ,

You've got to multiply the NWA positions by a modifier that credits the number of "empty seats" that the NWA pilots bring into the new staffing formula. Currently, NWA staffs on average 17-20 percent below the current DAL.

Do that, and your numbers look different.

Nu

I've heard the numbers are between 350-500.

Regardless, why should you exclusively enjoy the benefits of the staffing formula?

Who brings that new staffing formula to the merger? The DAL PWA or the NWA PWA?

Did you have an expectation of that staffing formula pre merger?

That staffing formula is brought to you by the DAL pilots. You conceded quite a bit in order to save your pensions. That was a priority you had. Sorry, but piggy backing off the DAL manning formula to the detriment of the DAL pilots won't work

I'm not saying that the DAL pilots should enjoy the 17-20%, since we brought it. I'm saying that we both should enjoy it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Heyas F4H,

You are right on the mark about the productivity, which is keyed directly to staffing.

That's been a missing part of the big picture.

To have REALLY accurate ratio integration, we'd need to match the DAL staffing by inflating the NWA side with about 800-1000 pilots. So the obvious way to fix this is to run right out, hire a 1000 guys and say "ok, ratio THIS".

Nu

Now that made me laugh out loud. Not only do you think NWA pilots should get a ratio that puts them in aircraft far above what they could currently hold, but we need to ratio NWA pilots that have not even thought of applying yet for all the NWA openings that might happen someday if no airplanes are retired and NWA staffs their airline to operate their schedule.

Could I apply for one of your phantom pilot positions and bid back to ATL 767? Where do I apply for a phantom seniority slot? I like to have one of those especially if it meant I got to fly for Delta and be senior to a bunch of other 767 pilots who have been on board for a decade, um, sounds like a fair plan you got there....

 

[Noserider76]

Honestly, the only way I see this thing working out to both parties satisfaction is with conditions and restrictions for a minimum of 10 years.

I agree 100%. It will protect everyone's current quality of life/expectations as much as possible and it will save the company a ton of money on base transfers and the associated training costs. Every move between one company base and another's will generate a training event since we share virtually no fleet in common.

If they are trying the largest airline merger ever attempted it seems almost a no-brainer to leave as much status quo as possible for a good long while. It will limit the companies ability to move equipment but would do a lot for everyone's peace of mind.

Anyone know if these guys are even still talking?

 

[FDJ2]

You should also account for the fact that 747 SO isn't the most junior position and it pays about what 757 FO pays.

Do you want to integrate via pay rates or position? Be consistent.

I can assure you the DAL pilots would prefer via pay rates. 516 DAL F/O positions pay more than NWA DC-9 Captain. Should we slot NWA DC-9 Captains behind DAL 777 and 767-400 F/Os? The real kicker in pay rate integration is when we slot in all the DAL M88 f/Os with the NWA 757 F/Os and then staple the rest of the NWA narrow bodied F/Os. Do you really want to go down the road of slotting by pay rates and not positions?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nevermind....

 

[viper548]

I think it should be DOH or percentile. I'd prefer 40 year fences

 

[~~~^~~~]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twincitynights/402314865/

Yes, 40 year fences please.

 

[jonjuan]

I am surprised I haven't yet heard of the skin cancer attrition argument on this thread. We all know that DALs Southern based living pilots enjoy the sun much more than the icebox pilots of NWA who rarely see the sun, except between July 23 and August 9 every year.
With skin cancer being the 5th biggest cancer killer every year and knowing that people who play in the sun (Buckheadeans) are more susceptible to skin cancer every year, it stands to reason that DAL pilots will have a greater rate of attrition due to loss of medical or death from skin cancer than their NWA ice fishing counterparts. Although you could make the case that more NWA pilots lose their lives every year (than DAL pilots) from falling through the ice while fishing on Lake Minnetonka.
Of course, General Lee may need his upgrade sooner rather than later as he'll suffer from debilitating carpal tunnel syndrome as he approaches 15,000 posts and will lose his medical. Then again, maybe he simply dictates all his FI posts to his wife.

I wonder if both MECs have considered these variables.

 

[DTW320]

Do you want to integrate via pay rates or position? Be consistent.

I can assure you the DAL pilots would prefer via pay rates. 516 DAL F/O positions pay more than NWA DC-9 Captain. Should we slot NWA DC-9 Captains behind DAL 777 and 767-400 F/Os? The real kicker in pay rate integration is when we slot in all the DAL M88 f/Os with the NWA 757 F/Os and then staple the rest of the NWA narrow bodied F/Os. Do you really want to go down the road of slotting by pay rates and not positions?

DAL has 516 777 F/O's? That IS a heck of a staffing formula you got there.

NWA DC9 CA = $126
DAL 767400FO=$123

 

[FDJ2]

DAL has 516 777 F/O's? That IS a heck of a staffing formula you got there.

NWA DC9 CA = $126
DAL 767400FO=$123

Ooops my bad 206 777 first officers at 130/hr and 310 767-400 first officers at $123/hr + 9% DC plan contribution + 2% 401K contribution + $3/hr international override. I'm not sure what DC, 401K contributions and international over ride a NWA DC-9 captain gets.

DAL 767-400 F/O: $126/hr

NWA 747-400 F/O $122/hr
NWA 747-200 F/O $116/hr
NWA A330 F/O $110/hr

etc.

Any way you look at it an integration methodology which takes pay rates into consideration would favor the DAL pilots more than just looking at position held in comparable categories.

As a good faith concession to the NWA pilots I think it's best to just look at positions each pilot group brings to the table. Starting at wide bodied captain and ending with second officers.

 

[JOPILOT]

I am surprised I haven't yet heard of the skin cancer attrition argument on this thread. We all know that DALs Southern based living pilots enjoy the sun much more than the icebox pilots of NWA who rarely see the sun, except between July 23 and August 9 every year.
With skin cancer being the 5th biggest cancer killer every year and knowing that people who play in the sun (Buckheadeans) are more susceptible to skin cancer every year, it stands to reason that DAL pilots will have a greater rate of attrition due to loss of medical or death from skin cancer than their NWA ice fishing counterparts. Although you could make the case that more NWA pilots lose their lives every year (than DAL pilots) from falling through the ice while fishing on Lake Minnetonka.
Of course, General Lee may need his upgrade sooner rather than later as he'll suffer from debilitating carpal tunnel syndrome as he approaches 15,000 posts and will lose his medical. Then again, maybe he simply dictates all his FI posts to his wife.

I wonder if both MECs have considered these variables.

Not to mention the DAL pilot mortalities from Waffle House intake after late night sim sessions on Virginia Ave. (that is intake of 2nd hand smoke and the counterfeit food they serve)

 

[DTW320]

Ooops my bad 206 777 first officers at 130/hr and 310 767-400 first officers at $123/hr + 9% DC plan contribution + 2% 401K contribution + $3/hr international override. I'm not sure what DC, 401K contributions and international over ride a NWA DC-9 captain gets.

DAL 767-400 F/O: $126/hr

NWA 747-400 F/O $122/hr
NWA 747-200 F/O $116/hr
NWA A330 F/O $110/hr

etc.

FO International override is $3.88/hr at NWA. The targeted DC plan at NWA has been discussed a lot here. 0% for full A-plan types, as much as 20%+ for some low A-plan types. If we are gonna get picky, and consider paltry things like international overide, then we would have to factor in the DC-9 CA getting $189/hr for every hour over 80 (average lines are around 85 hours credit now)

 

[FDJ2]

FO International override is $3.88/hr at NWA. The targeted DC plan at NWA has been discussed a lot here. 0% for full A-plan types, as much as 20%+ for some low A-plan types. If we are gonna get picky, and consider paltry things like international overide, then we would have to factor in the DC-9 CA getting $189/hr for every hour over 80 (average lines are around 85 hours credit now)

Average lines are 85 hours, is that something to be proud of?

We can also consider DAL green slips and inverse asignments, where does it end?

Regardless, I'm not the one who wanted to interject pay rates of second officers into the discussion. Anyway you cut it DAL pilots would fair much better if the integration were based on pay rates than if it were based on what positions were brought to the merger. What positions are brought to the merger is probably a good compromise. Start with wide bodied captains and end with second officers.