NWA/DAL Arbitration hearing

[Monster Buck]

Seems from the original post one would think that the NWA group is right with all of their thinking. We should just let them show us how its done.
Like Republic. 22 years later and they are still pissed. I have a feeling that no matter what NWA gets, most of them will be pissed. If so, there is nothing DAL pilot's stand to gain by working together. We made an aweful mistake starting with such a soft initial stance. We should have started like AA with TWA. NWA( A ten year fence)? How did that type of "seperative" stance work last time for you?

 

[tomgoodman]

Indications

You may be right, if the arbitrators kept giving indications that they were leaning towards one groups position, why would that group negotiate? Maybe we should just negotiate something out before it heads that way.

If and when arbitrators "give indications", it probably means that they are trying to "herd" the parties toward a position that they expect to impose, if necessary. They would prefer that the parties get there by themselves.

 

[recallsomeday]

Like Republic. 22 years later and they are still pissed. I have a feeling that no matter what NWA gets, most of them will be pissed. If so, there is nothing DAL pilot's stand to gain by working together. We made an aweful mistake starting with such a soft initial stance. We should have started like AA with TWA. NWA( A ten year fence)? How did that type of "seperative" stance work last time for you?

They are not still pissed, like all groups there are a few individuals that stand out and gripe about anything.

There are redbook pilots that gripe just because the greenbook guy gripes. (Gotta keep an even "griping" scale)

You send the impression that the whole group is a big mess of pixxed off people. Simply not true.

 

[General Lee]

After finishing day three of the NWA Arbitration presentation the feeling is that we are getting closer to a negotiated settlement.
The following is a compiled observation edited to keep it simple:


"I along w/10-20 NWA pilots observed today's arbitration
proceedings. Not a single pilot from DAL was there. Lee
Moak was in the audience & that was it other than their
Merger Committee.

I am going to summarize what happened today--it was
EVENTFUL. Be forgiving of my spelling mistakes, etc.

First, some personal observations: anyone who thinks Our MEC
or any pilot or staffer associated w/the Seniority
Arbitration might be trying to sell out the Junior NWA
pilots is just wrong. If you believe that, you need to find
time to attend a session. You will witness 1st hand the
time, effort, preparation, & professionalism of ALL
involved. 3 of our witnesses who testified today were a
747-400 Captain & 2 A330 Captains. They weren't doing this
for themselves. As senior WB Captains, they are pretty
secure. Instead, they were sacrificing their personal time
for the ENTIRE pilot group in general & for the junior
pilots in particular.

The specifics:

1)The day started w/A320 F/O Merger Committee Member
being cross examined. Not only did he hold up well,
but he got under the skin of the DAL lawyer enough that the
lawyer was not only rude to him, but to most of the
witnesses today. It was apparent, their lawyer was a jerk.
Great job describing how a pay was temporary, but
seniority was forever.

2)The second witness was the cross examination of Dr
C, our economist. He literally kicked butt...again.
Not only did he answer everything, but he corrected the DAL
lawyers at times, he did not give an inch & he knew his
stuff. At one point, the DAL lawyer was trying to downplay
the value of our operations in Asia & Dr reiterated
the price UAL paid for Pan Am's Pacific operation in the
'80s--close to $885M I think, then stated how the rest of
the industry thought UAL got a screaming deal. The DAL
lawyer just had his jaw drop & didn't know how to respond.
The peanut gallery (us pilots) definitely noticed & we
quietly laughed at the exchange.

3)Merger Committee Member was next & gave a
great summary & presentation of our proposed list. It was
an "improved" Robert's Award. Date of Hire w/restrictions &
protections. He gave the broad brush & of the list & then
details of why it was fair--compared seniorities on planes
from WB Capt, WB F/O, NB Capt, & NB F/O. Cross was saved
until later...

4)Our former negot chmn gave a rundown comparison on the contracts
pre-merger & post merger. He was extremely effective in
tearing down DAL ALPA's argument that this was a financial
windfall for the NWA pilots & we should be willing to trade
money for our seniority. Much of DAL's bravado had been
about the higher hourly rates. Bill not only demonstrated
hourly rate isn't everything, but said that DAL never would
have even gotten LOA 19 improvements had it not been for NWA
pilots & the outlook of a merger. NWA was bringing
something to the party, both groups were benefiting, &
hourly pay rates aren't all that make a W-2. Cross withheld
& DAL lawyer said lots of nasty things in his comments.

5)G--the coup de gras--THIS WAS AMAZING TO WATCH.
Gr took the DAL proposal, & tore it apart piece by piece.
Every condition DAL had, he systematically & convincingly
demonstrated it was designed to benefit DAL at the detriment
of NWA Pilots. For example, DAL had no real plans for
sharing growth. They also wanted their 777 on order to be
considered as theirs while our 787s (on firm order in 2005)
would be new flying to be "shared" between pilot groups.
They had no plan for replacement aircraft. G eloquently
spoke of the earlier video showing how the DAL plan allowed
them to take advantage of all our retirements as well as
theirs. The video was shown at the beginning of the day to
demonstrate how much more attrition we have than DAL has in
the future.

If you haven't heard, our List as presented was similar to
the Robert's Award w/a 10 year fence after SOC based on
staffing & planes on order.

The DAL case was based on our two companies not being equal.
If you have read the transcripts of the DAL witnesses, one
would have to wonder why DAL Mgmt would ever want NWA as a
partner. Our case was based on the two companies being
equals. Not like DAL & Pan Am, not like AMR & TWA, not like
American West & US Air, etc.

Afterwards, at the end of the hearing the Chmn said that a negot settlement would be in the best intrest of both groups and THEY WERE TREATING THIS
ARBITRATION AS ONE OF EQUAL COMPANIES.

This may seem unimportant/obvious, but this is/was the heart
of the DAL ALPA case & IMO, a shot across their bow. He
then said he would allow the finish of cross examination
tomorrow (Friday), but he expected the two sides to reenter
negotiations & they would be available to mediate if
requested.

All of the men & women (pilots, lawyers, actuaries, staff,
etc) supporting NWA ALPA have done an amazing job. The real
work may just be getting started, but I am very proud & feel
relieved that they are representing me & all NWA pilots."

The NWA A320FO did well on the stand? I didn't read it like that. The DAL lawyer handed him his azz, telling him not to give speeches and asked him a simple question, has there been any ALPA seniority merger that EVER accounted for attrition? He said no. Funny that your side NEVER brought up our large attrition that will happen 5 years after yours. About the same number, or maybe more attrition on our side. But, that doesn't really count, right? You kept your pension and lost your rules. We gave you back most of the rules (like manning rules--2 Captains 2 Fos for over 12 hours---which will benefit many of your greenbooks), yet we won't get back the pensions.

Another of NWA's witnesses stated Northwest ALWAYS used "ratios" to integrate seniority before (especially when they were the larger airline), and now they want DOH. As On Your Six pointed out, they didn't use DOH with Republic.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I don't know if this was a direct quote or spin but if it holds true, it is a huge warning shot.

So, that would mean relatvie seniority would be better than DOH, right? Riiiiiiiight. Our offer was closer to the middle, and yours was not. DOH on your side equalled Staple on ours.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Maybe or maybe not. I think it kind of indicates that a 500 pilot staple was a stretch even for an opener and the arbitrators did not find that very realistic. My 2 cents.

I think Capt Gilroy yesterday or the day before that he MAY have been told about 250-300 possible furloughs at NWA, and also confirmed that some of the DC9s would be going away. He started talking about 94 total DC9s, and then was directed to give the actual number in accordance with what he was told by management, which was less. He also said he heard about the internet chat about 742s possibly going away, but said it was up to RA and not the guy who probably also knows the real story. All of those numbers point to less jobs brought to the table by one side, whereas we have planes coming SOON, not planes that haven't even flown yet. That is where you get the 400 bottom guys all NWA, and then relative seniority.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

They are not still pissed, like all groups there are a few individuals that stand out and gripe about anything.

There are redbook pilots that gripe just because the greenbook guy gripes. (Gotta keep an even "griping" scale)

You send the impression that the whole group is a big mess of pixxed off people. Simply not true.

Why did you need 10 or 12 observers for the initial seniority list integration negotiations? Somebody doesn't trust somebody......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dispatchguy]

There are redbook pilots that gripe just because the greenbook guy gripes.

I know the calderesque color scheme has to do with the love fest which was the RC/NW merger, but could someone define the colorscheme for those of us who arent in the know?

 

[General Lee]

I know the calderesque color scheme has to do with the love fest which was the RC/NW merger, but could someone define the colorscheme for those of us who arent in the know?

Redbook=original NWA. Greenbook=original Republic. Bluebook= people hired after that merger took place.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Dunno. DOH with a 10 year fence sounds pretty reasonable.

Each side sticks with what they brought. How can that be a bad thing...isn't that what the junior DAL guys have been crying about all along?

The DAL guys can enjoy their 767s and 777 (mmm, don't forget those malaria meds!), and the NWA guys can enjoy the 330, -200, -400 and 787.

After 10 years, the disparity in the demographics of each group will be pretty much gone.

Recently heard....since the collapse of oil, the 28 DC-9-30s in storage are being recalled to service.

Nu

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Heyas,

Dunno. DOH with a 10 year fence sounds pretty reasonable.

Each side sticks with what they brought. How can that be a bad thing...isn't that what the junior DAL guys have been crying about all along?

The DAL guys can enjoy their 767s and 777 (mmm, don't forget those malaria meds!), and the NWA guys can enjoy the 330, -200, -400 and 787.

After 10 years, the disparity in the demographics of each group will be pretty much gone.

Recently heard....since the collapse of oil, the 28 DC-9-30s in storage are being recalled to service.

Nu

I agree that sounds like the best plan for both sides...
Didn't I read, though, something about Anderson saying fences were not an option?
Does he have a choice if arbitration rules it that way?
Would fences affect you guys negatively if your aircrafts get sent to inferior bases like JFK or SLC? From what it sounds like, as soon as this all goes down they are going to be swapping your aircrafts ALL OVER the place...would fences hurt you? (I would look at ALL aspects, not the "leaked" aircraft to bases info seen on here earlier)...

 

[p3flteng]

The NWA DOH proposal is posted on the ALPA/ merger site. The difference for me (a near bottom NW guy) is about 400 numbers between the two proposals. I would prefer the DOH as it slides me in with the Delta guys who were hired the same time as last year, but in a spirit of compromise I would hope that we can come to some agreement and I end up no more than a hundred or so off the mark. I think thats a fair give and take. Anymore than that is just greed IMHO. I will however not hold any grudges and go happily to work...no matter what the outcome.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The NWA DOH proposal is posted on the ALPA/ merger site. The difference for me (a near bottom NW guy) is about 400 numbers between the two proposals. I would prefer the DOH as it slides me in with the Delta guys who were hired the same time as last year, but in a spirit of compromise I would hope that we can come to some agreement and I end up no more than a hundred or so off the mark. I think thats a fair give and take. Anymore than that is just greed IMHO. I will however not hold any grudges and go happily to work...no matter what the outcome.

I see no reason whatsoever that it should be anything OTHER than straight date of hire, especially for new guys hired on both sides at all this year. Everyone in the industry knew about this merger, and no pilot that accepted a class date in 2008 should have any expectations of being ahead of any other pilot hired this year on the other side in what was known to be a merger of equals all this time.
If you were in say an April class date, you should reasonably expect to be ahead of a DL guy with a July class date.
Here's an interesting thing to ponder... Having friends in both places, I know that NWA's class seniority is based on birthdate, and DL's within each class is based on last 4 digits of ssn (odd)...How is all of THAT going to work into all of this? (GeneralLee on ignore need not reply)

 

[General Lee]

Heyas,

Dunno. DOH with a 10 year fence sounds pretty reasonable.

Each side sticks with what they brought. How can that be a bad thing...isn't that what the junior DAL guys have been crying about all along?

The DAL guys can enjoy their 767s and 777 (mmm, don't forget those malaria meds!), and the NWA guys can enjoy the 330, -200, -400 and 787.

After 10 years, the disparity in the demographics of each group will be pretty much gone.

Recently heard....since the collapse of oil, the 28 DC-9-30s in storage are being recalled to service.

Nu

So, what if the 787s don't get ordered after all, and the 747-200s go away as "planned?" What then? We get all of the 777s coming, right? They are on our certificate right now. What about the 25 MD90s coming from Saudia supposedly? They are going to MSP "supposedly." (I have to say that on here)

I don't think any of that is gonna float. You didn't use DOH with Republic, did you? You had a 20 year fence, and still didn't do DOH. And, as our lawyer and your A320FO pointed out, attrition has NEVER been used in any merger case. How about relative seniority and then a 10 year fence. Sounds better, because in 10 years a lot of us will still be here, and DOH doesn't work. It never has in any ALPA merger---it has never been done. As our lawyer pointed out and your 747 Captain pointed out, you never have used it yourself, until you are the smaller entity.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The NWA DOH proposal is posted on the ALPA/ merger site. The difference for me (a near bottom NW guy) is about 400 numbers between the two proposals. I would prefer the DOH as it slides me in with the Delta guys who were hired the same time as last year, but in a spirit of compromise I would hope that we can come to some agreement and I end up no more than a hundred or so off the mark. I think thats a fair give and take. Anymore than that is just greed IMHO. I will however not hold any grudges and go happily to work...no matter what the outcome.

Spirit of compromise? You started to the far left, and we started fairly close to the middle. Is it greed when your side is losing aircraft or bringing less to the table? Your airline is parking DC9s (even if they keep some more than planned, they are still parking some), and the 742s are pretty much toast----those planes aren't good for cargo anymore (according to the guy who will be running them after the merger is done). We are adding planes, and not just 787s that haven't been flown ever.

I also will be happy to come to work, but being fair is about what is brought to the table. Really.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I see no reason whatsoever that it should be anything OTHER than straight date of hire, especially for new guys hired on both sides at all this year. Everyone in the industry knew about this merger, and no pilot that accepted a class date in 2008 should have any expectations of being ahead of any other pilot hired this year on the other side in what was known to be a merger of equals all this time.
If you were in say an April class date, you should reasonably expect to be ahead of a DL guy with a July class date.
Here's an interesting thing to ponder... Having friends in both places, I know that NWA's class seniority is based on birthdate, and DL's within each class is based on last 4 digits of ssn (odd)...How is all of THAT going to work into all of this? (GeneralLee on ignore need not reply)

We just started the social security deal with the recent hirings. Before 9-11, it was all Date of birth for people in class. The reason dealt with age discrimination. United also uses social security numbers. That way, it is all up to chance.


And, I am glad I am on your ignore list. Everyone else can read it though.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

We just started the social security deal with the recent hirings. Before 9-11, it was all Date of birth for people in class. The reason dealt with age discrimination. United also uses social security numbers. That way, it is all up to chance.


And, I am glad I am on your ignore list. Everyone else can read it though.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Very interesting Lee. I didn't know United did that.

 

[Heavy Set]

So, what if the 787s don't get ordered after all, and the 747-200s go away as "planned?" What then? We get all of the 777s coming, right? They are on our certificate right now. What about the 25 MD90s coming from Saudia supposedly? They are going to MSP "supposedly." (I have to say that on here)

I don't think any of that is gonna float. You didn't use DOH with Republic, did you? You had a 20 year fence, and still didn't do DOH. And, as our lawyer and your A320FO pointed out, attrition has NEVER been used in any merger case. How about relative seniority and then a 10 year fence. Sounds better, because in 10 years a lot of us will still be here, and DOH doesn't work. It never has in any ALPA merger---it has never been done. As our lawyer pointed out and your 747 Captain pointed out, you never have used it yourself, until you are the smaller entity.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Good argument, and I don't even have a fight in this.

 

[NuGuy]

So, what if the 787s don't get ordered after all.

You didn't use DOH with Republic, did you? You had a 20 year fence, and still didn't do DOH.

Ummmm, the 787s are on firm order, and have been for a while. I haven't seen any press releases about more MD-90s..where do I look for those?

The NWA/Republic merger WAS DOH...and, gasp, was awarded BY the arbitrator.

The NWA position is basically was has been already awarded by previous arbitrations...DOH with a fence.

You guys have been screaming up and down for a fence, so you should be pretty happy about this.

Nu

 

[Voice Of Reason]

You guys have been screaming up and down for a fence, so you should be pretty happy about this.

Nu

Again, didn't DL's beloved leader mandate NO fences, though?