NW scabs

[Dizel8]

Deli,

I am sorry, but you cannot compare the "infamous few", who has manged to slip through the cracks at other airlines, with having an entire union displaced by scabs.

I understand that the situation is a multifaceted issue and that AMFA has it issue with other unions, most notably the IAM, who wrote a scathing letter, which in so many words said Fk off.

I have little doubt though, that based on NWA management offer, AMFA had no choice but to walk, further, I think NWA management wanted them to. This plan, according to the company, started 18 months ago and they went so far as to talk to Bush, to say they did not want a PEB. He might have invoked one, but since NWA had the replacement lined up, it would not impact the "economy".

If the same guns were brought to bear on NWA ALPA, I am certain, that you would have walked as well. The offer given to AMFA could be alikened to NWA wanting all the nines flown by Mesaba and all Int'l flown by foreign crews, a 26% paycut and a loss of 50% of the seniority list. Those are essentially the demands given to AMFA, they didn't accept, as surely as ALPA wouldn't.

On other boards, I have seen the "wish list" that management has given to the F/As and it is similarily draconian. Replacement F/As are being trained as we speak on NWA airplanes. Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few NWA F/A's, who all indicated they would cross, should a strike occur. Quite frankly I was surprised, but it is not my choice to make and I simply bit my tongue.

What does surprise me, but probably shouldn't, is the lenght to which NWA will go, to create bad blood between labor and management, but that is probably for another thread.

 

[Redmeat]

Deli,

I am sorry, but you cannot compare the "infamous few", who has manged to slip through the cracks at other airlines, with having an entire union displaced by scabs.

I understand that the situation is a multifaceted issue and that AMFA has it issue with other unions, most notably the IAM, who wrote a scathing letter, which in so many words said Fk off.

I have little doubt though, that based on NWA management offer, AMFA had no choice but to walk, further, I think NWA management wanted them to. This plan, according to the company, started 18 months ago and they went so far as to talk to Bush, to say they did not want a PEB. He might have invoked one, but since NWA had the replacement lined up, it would not impact the "economy".

If the same guns were brought to bear on NWA ALPA, I am certain, that you would have walked as well. The offer given to AMFA could be alikened to NWA wanting all the nines flown by Mesaba and all Int'l flown by foreign crews, a 26% paycut and a loss of 50% of the seniority list. Those are essentially the demands given to AMFA, they didn't accept, as surely as ALPA wouldn't.

On other boards, I have seen the "wish list" that management has given to the F/As and it is similarily draconian. Replacement F/As are being trained as we speak on NWA airplanes. Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few NWA F/A's, who all indicated they would cross, should a strike occur. Quite frankly I was surprised, but it is not my choice to make and I simply bit my tongue.

What does surprise me, but probably shouldn't, is the lenght to which NWA will go, to create bad blood between labor and management, but that is probably for another thread.

Very beautifully stated. That was a good post.

 

[klhoard]

Deli,

I am sorry, but you cannot compare the "infamous few", who has manged to slip through the cracks at other airlines, with having an entire union displaced by scabs.

I understand that the situation is a multifaceted issue and that AMFA has it issue with other unions, most notably the IAM, who wrote a scathing letter, which in so many words said Fk off.

I have little doubt though, that based on NWA management offer, AMFA had no choice but to walk, further, I think NWA management wanted them to. This plan, according to the company, started 18 months ago and they went so far as to talk to Bush, to say they did not want a PEB. He might have invoked one, but since NWA had the replacement lined up, it would not impact the "economy".

If the same guns were brought to bear on NWA ALPA, I am certain, that you would have walked as well. The offer given to AMFA could be alikened to NWA wanting all the nines flown by Mesaba and all Int'l flown by foreign crews, a 26% paycut and a loss of 50% of the seniority list. Those are essentially the demands given to AMFA, they didn't accept, as surely as ALPA wouldn't.

On other boards, I have seen the "wish list" that management has given to the F/As and it is similarily draconian. Replacement F/As are being trained as we speak on NWA airplanes. Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few NWA F/A's, who all indicated they would cross, should a strike occur. Quite frankly I was surprised, but it is not my choice to make and I simply bit my tongue.

What does surprise me, but probably shouldn't, is the lenght to which NWA will go, to create bad blood between labor and management, but that is probably for another thread.

.
.
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. . .
.
.
.
Now tell us, WHO IS THE CHICK!?!?!
.
.
.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Diezel and Redmeat,
Ive said my piece on this and I respect your opinons. And no matter how much I blab about our (NW pilots) bad position, I am still going to work tomorrow and a scab is going to be looking over my log book. My position is that AMFA F'ed up over 2 years ago by signaling NWA mgmt that they were going to take a nutty course. When it became apparent to NWA mgmt that AMFA (and the PFAA for that matter) were not going to follow ALPA's plan, they (mgmt) started to put their own plan into action. If you look at it from an evil business stand point it played right into their hands. Again I ask, "at what point does AMFA get the responsibility for their actions?" also, why would AMFA bluff so badly? The pilots union can and will shut down the airline. The mechanics played their hand so badly, that management knew they were incapable of shooting blanks....hell they couldnt even get an erection.
Diezel 8, you started by saying there were not many scabs at jetblue. Now you are saying OK we have them, but now I must differentiate between the "whole mechanics union" (who dug their own grave) and the scabs working for your company that does not believe in unions at all and who holds no distinction between hiring a scab or a non scab--and now--I should rise up and smite evil by standing by the f'ed up mechanics union and allowing the whole company to end up like EAL so that your company can gain market share---and I'll just run my deli.
Again, it is way more complex than sitting in your position and passing judgement.
The wish list is the same wish list NWA has been giving us since 9-11. It is a starter. It may be an ender I am not sure. I guarantee there will be a drastic pay cut and cut in benifits so that we can compete with the "new world order" created by successful companies like Jetblue Airtran Spirit Independence Air etc. I really do not understand why, if you feel that our mechanics should be honored for their leaderships poor strategy, you do not understand that it is the mechanics pay scale and work rules at jetblue for example, that really caused the NWA mechanics headaches?
I look at this as just business. If it is demonstrated that a company can operate cheaper, all companies will try to follow that model or perish. Our company is trying to follow that model. It is up to us (labor) to
negotiate to our best advantage. You do not get what you deserve or what is morally right, you get what you negotiate. The mech's f'ed up. We are now at bat. We have the power to bring it to an end and mgmnt may try to implement its wish list, but they realize we are not shooting blanks and, with viagra, we can get an erection. They are also dealing with a union that has deep experience and deep pockets. NWA alpa is also realistic. They are not trying to get a letter removed from the alphabet. Alpa realizes that cuts are necessary and will try and squeeze all it can out of the situation. Is ALPA squeaky clean with out it's own ax to grind? No. So here we are. I am working at an airline on the edge holding hands with scabs. If you are at Jetblue you are working at a company on the rise that is using a business model that is killing the work model that you anticipated but will probably not (any of us) achieve. I may sound bitter but I really am not. I am making my plans accordingly. I think the Jetblue model will be the new face of aviation.


OK, Will you please tell us who the chick is?

p.s. Are they real?

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Rez O
Good post. The world has changed......again

 

[Publishers]

Like any organization, unions work on sales. In their case sales is qualified by membership dues and increased members. Just like in real business, a union can oversell their capability to negotiate a new contract. Big promises resulted in success.

Unfortunately these promises also resulted in them abandoning the very other organizations. Their tactics were aggressive and pissed off a good many other unions.

When put up or shut up came along, they had to strike or go back on all the promises.

 

[Redmeat]

Hey Diezel and Redmeat,
Ive said my piece on this and I respect your opinons.

Deli,

Not blaming you personally. You sound like a good guy. This is such a bad situation. It is hard to hear the media keep saying "Steenland says, His airline is running smoothly" after he just lopped off 4400 peoples lives, and replaced them with the scum of the earth. It is one of those situations where you want justice NOW, Dam_it. Having said that I do wonder if management would have continued on the "plan for success" if they were not exactly sure what ALPA would do in the event of an AMFA strike..

Anyway, good-luck on the Deli.

Rm

 

[Dizel8]

Deli,

How tender is your meat?

I see what you are saying, and AMFA is comprised of big boys, hopefully they thought it out. I certainly hope they prevail.

As for the non union enviroment at jetblue, it is that and it is what it is. Have jetblue caused the problems current at NWA, I think that would be stretching the truth. From a route perspective, I see few places indeed, where there is an overlap.

I never said, that there were no scabs at jetblue, if you thought that is what I said, then I must not have made myself clear. I think you have to make a distinction, at least I do, between the few, which I am sure is on the seniority list at NWA, as there pretty much is at all airlines and the many.

Is jetblue the way to do things, who knows? The better example, at present, would be SWA. They do compete with NWA out of DTW and they are unionized with good compensation, so are they the ones being the spoiler or NWA or is it simply NWA management? Case in point, would be the rhetoric at U, where management kept setting the goal post lower and lower as for as which company to compare wages to and who they had to match. Spiegel did a "great" job with: "They (SWA) are coming to Philly to kill us". Of course at that
point in time U employees, IIRC, were already paid less than their counterparts at SWA.

Heres to better times

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Redmeat,
No argument there. I wish NW Alpa had played a little better poker hand than they did. I am just tired of the pop up one line hits on NW pilots being semi- scabaceous without any background on it.

 

[Deli Guy]

Ok Dammit Diezel!!!
Who Is The Chick?

 

[Dizel8]

"Again, it is way more complex than sitting in your position and passing judgement"

I never meant to pass judgement, if it cames across as that, I apologize.

Remember that, when a jetblue pilot ask for the jumpseat

As for the young lady, well.................

 

[Deli Guy]

Diezel 8,
Are you the young lady? If so, I apologize for the wisecracks AND I have suddenly come to my senses and decided to agree with everything you have ever thought or said past present and future. If not, well....ok.....uh......Talk to you guys later

 

[psycho]

WOULD ALPA HAVE ACCEPTED THIS DEAL?

Please reread post #121 by dizel8. Nwa picked off the weakest union and all of the rest are next. Mgts offer to AMFA was a precursor to the Coup de grace. I could imagine the laughter in the boardroom had AMFA capitulated " Ha, we raped them and they begged for cab fare"

And sorry, that lame management excuse about protecting the mother ship from bankruptcy as a reason for no sympathy strikes is a little bit like begging the courts for mercy after murdering your parents because you are an orphan.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Ok Dammit Diezel!!!
Who Is The Chick?

thats not a woman its a man baby!

 

[Redmeat]

WOULD ALPA HAVE ACCEPTED THIS DEAL?


And sorry, that lame management excuse about protecting the mother ship from bankruptcy as a reason for no sympathy strikes is a little bit like begging the courts for mercy after murdering your parents because you are an orphan.

Good stuff man, good stuff.

(Sorry Deli)

 

[Morning Wood]

They didn't need to, the airline was shutdown.

And no work needed to be done on any airplanes? No MEL's to clear,
no cabins needed to be deep cleaned? Or was everyone told to
simply not show up for the whole two weeks?

 

[Publishers]

Look, they are not even getting symapthy from brother unions so why should they from you. There is almost unanimous agreement that the union screwed up.

The problem is the lemming one. Are you supposed to follow the sheep to the slaughter when you think the one leading them has its head you know where.

Managements don't run around and pick off unions that are well operated. If they get picked off as you call it, it is because the union was screwed by miscalualtion, overselling, etc. Sort of management issues.

 

[Lear70]

Look, they are not even getting symapthy from brother unions so why should they from you. There is almost unanimous agreement that the union screwed up.

So YOU would allow the union to sign an agreement that furloughs half its dues-paying employees and cuts pay for the rest to less than it costs to support their families? That's not a union screwing up, it's a union sticking to the basic needs of its dues-paying members.

Managements don't run around and pick off unions that are well operated. If they get picked off as you call it, it is because the union was screwed by miscalualtion, overselling, etc. Sort of management issues.

But that's EXACTLY what NWA has done... picked off a well-organized, well-run union with to-the-last-day commitment of its members. NWA has done this in the first environment in history that it was possible with waning union support in the nation, outsourcing at its highest level in history, and fear causing the other unions to retract into their self-deluding shells and ignore the BLATANT FACT that THEIR UNION IS NEXT.

Should cleaners make $40,000 a year? Probably not. Should mechanics make $60,000 a year? Absolutely. True, AMFA's original proposal was a pay raise, but the last-ditch effort from AMFA WAS A CONCESSIONARY AGREEMENT! But Northwest made unreasonable demands, knowing the union wouldn't sign, and therefore walked AMFA right into a carefully-orchestrated path towards union breakup, bankruptcy, and pension cutting... for ALL its employees... but I've been saying NWA was going to do this for about 2 years now.

 

[Publishers]

If I thought that the net result would be that all my members would be out, I sure would. Secondly, this is also the result of combining labor forces with different skill sets and interests because you want the dues and numbers to be credible.

 

[Redmeat]

If I thought that the net result would be that all my members would be out, I sure would.

53% permanent job reduction to AMFA. 53% of AMFA equals a majority voting to strike. Do the math.

 

[Lear70]

If I thought that the net result would be that all my members would be out, I sure would.

Thank God then for member ratification.

Secondly, this is also the result of combining labor forces with different skill sets and interests because you want the dues and numbers to be credible.

Gotta agree with you there; if the mechanics were fighting just for the mechanics, this would be a lot harder pill to swallow, but we got mechanics fighting for $40,000 a year cleaners with G.E.D.'s.

 

[Deli Guy]

Quote from Diezl8:
"As for the non union enviroment at jetblue, it is that and it is what it is. Have jetblue caused the problems current at NWA, I think that would be stretching the truth. From a route perspective, I see few places indeed, where there is an overlap."

All LCC's have caused problems at all legacy carriers. They were eroding prior to 9-11 and after 9-11 they were hit with lack of business travel, lack of travel in general, fuel prices, SARS, and rising competition from the LCCs. Of course, it is a given that management was not up to the task of reacting properly to these challenges, but they were/are challenges. The challenge of competing with the LCC's is a real one. It gives legacy carriers management something to point to when it is negotiating pay and benefits. I think you will see in my post that I mentioned "Jetblue Airtran Spirit Independence Air etc." and later when I mentioned Jetblue I said "I really do not understand why, if you feel that our mechanics should be honored for their leaderships poor strategy, you do not understand that it is the mechanics pay scale and work rules at jetblue for example, that really caused the NWA mechanics headaches?" I am not singling out Jetblue. The fact that Jetblue routes do not overlap NWA routes has no bearing. LCCs are a challenge to what many on this board loosely call "our profession"

Diezel 8 quote:
"Is jetblue the way to do things, who knows? The better example, at present, would be SWA. They do compete with NWA out of DTW and they are unionized with good compensation, so are they the ones being the spoiler or NWA or is it simply NWA management? Case in point, would be the rhetoric at U, where management kept setting the goal post lower and lower as for as which company to compare wages to and who they had to match. Spiegel did a "great" job with: "They (SWA) are coming to Philly to kill us". Of course at that
point in time U employees, IIRC, were already paid less than their counterparts at SWA."

Yes SWA is a challenge. Frankly, it is such a well run company, that it is a challenge to any company it targets. You have no argument from me here on U and US Air. The pilots did not screw up those companies, management did. Just like at NWA. When you get in these situations (like NWA is at this time) you are in a position where your negotiators are not clairvoiant. They are not perfect. They are human. The negotiators at U and US Air probably wish they had done something different in hind sight. It is up to our negotiators to learn from those mistakes, and it seems that NWA Alpa is very aware of the lessons that could be gleaned from those situations.

Posted by PSYCHO:
"WOULD ALPA HAVE ACCEPTED THIS DEAL?
Please reread post #121 by dizel8. Nwa picked off the weakest union and all of the rest are next. Mgts offer to AMFA was a precursor to the Coup de grace. I could imagine the laughter in the boardroom had AMFA capitulated " Ha, we raped them and they begged for cab fare"
And sorry, that lame management excuse about protecting the mother ship from bankruptcy as a reason for no sympathy strikes is a little bit like begging the courts for mercy after murdering your parents because you are an orphan."

Hey PSYCHO,
That is my point. AMFA F#&KED UP. They could have worked this and blew it. It would have taken close coordination with the other unions and skilled negotiators. They were not up to the task. As for the mother ship thing, I do not think NWA Alpa is diverted by mgmt rhetoric. If striking at the correct time--which would shut down the airline and cause management extreme financial duress is the correct course of action, I am sure we will do it on terms that will bring management to their knees. NWA Alpa, and the rank and file PFAA members recognized that AMFA leadership brought their union to disaster through poor leadership.

 

[Deli Guy]

As a general note, there is a theme on this page that talks about the end result, which is that AMFA painted themselves into a corner and was given a lose lose situation. It totally ignores the fact that AMFA, at one time in this process, was in a good position. That was when ALPA extended a plan to have all unions stick together, and coordinate our efforts to put mgmt in the worst possible situation. Please do not ignore this key point. This was avoidable. AMFA was pretty new to the property and was full of "youthful ignorance" (I hate to say it but so was the PFAA--both unions had changed from IAM and Teamsters) There was emotion involved. NW mgmt could not have been handed a better hand. They were probably laughing at NW Alpa, because NW Alpa had the winning hand and both AMFA and PFAA went out on their own for reasons of emotion and departed from the winning hand. There is one thing that lawyers from Harvard Business School understand is that you want your enemy emotional.
Again, you can not just look at the end result, which is NWA mgmt proposing a 53% cut in jobs. You have to ask "How in hell did AMFA put their mechanics in this lose-lose situation?" If you follow this through the facts you will see how AMFA not only screwed themselves, but gravely wounded NW ALPA efforts to save "our profession" and all the perks you guys have/had/wish you had.

 

[Deli Guy]

I FARTED ON A SCAB
Yesterday, during my walk around, I farted on a scab. I really like that part of my day where I can go out on the ramp and stretch a little and I always like to think about people stuck in office cubicles during my walk. We are so lucky to have a windy, noisy already smelly environment. I wonder what the average Joe does when he has to let loose a gaseous blast? We are so lucky.
Ok, back to the fart. When I got to DTW, I found out the scabs are wearing blue polo shirts. When I got to the airplane, Scab 1 was checking the books. It was pretty awkward as you can imagine. I did not want to be anywhere near this guy. So I left the cockpit for my walk around--my time--a little exercise--time to fart--time to think--and who is on my ramp? Another blue shirted scab. Well it so happens that just as I stepped outside I realized that the prior days back-to-school carnival with the kids was kicking in what with the chili kraut dogs and everything, I had a volume of air in my gut that felt like a 2 liter coke bottle. Upon seeing the blue shirted scab, I sort of tensed up and forgot about my sweet release. It turned out that this guy was doing his walk around. He was going the opposite direction of me. So after a few soothing minutes of walking away from this guy, nature started taking over and the pressure started to assert itself and just as I got under the left wheel well the time was right. Well as fate would have it, just as I was about to let go, I looked back out of the wheel well and here was the scab, sort of kneeling by my ass, waiting for his turn to look into the wheel well!
Now I am not an evil man, nor do I condone cruelty to my fellow man, and I probably could have "put a cork in it" as the saying goes, but why should I have to punish myself? Why should this man, who has taken the food from another's mouth, not put up with the inherent dangers and environmental hazards that exhist on a flight line ramp?
So, I broke wind in a most convincing manner, averaging about a constant 30 psi over about 45 seconds. Think about a deflating baloon, only smelly.
I can only guess at the reaction on his face, but I excused myself and pressed on with my preflight.
Alright, it was only a squeaker but it was symbolic.

 

[Publishers]

You are totally on track........ it was a no win deal for all. Again, the combined force did not help anything.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>I farted on a scab<<


As gratifying as that may have been, for you and the lucky recipient to both arrive at the location where the flatulation occured didn't you both cross the same AMFA picket line?

Another thought.

I don't know how much you value your career with NWA, perhaps a lot, perhaps little. Nevertheless, your career pretty much rests in the hands of the fartee and his cohorts.
If they successfully keep NWA running, the company will be able to outsource the cleaning, janitorial, and heavy maint jobs just like the lean mean profitable carriers do and perhaps NWA can weather this storm and when things turn around like they always do, and some capacity is removed, and oil stabilizes, and things get humming again the employee groups who made huge sacrifices can seek some restoration from the leverage of better times and you can have the career you always planned on.

Or the fartee and his cohorts can fail to keep the airline running and NWA will fall into bankruptcy and chaos and as the legacy carrier who would then be the most operationally dsyfunctional would by default serve the rest of the industry by cratering and closing the doors thereby helping everyone else by removing excess capacity and when the industry turns around in brighter times you and your new workmates can flip a coin to see who gets to approach the new Looky Lou who just drove onto the lot looking at the shiney new cars your new boss has in inventory.

The reason ALPA chose to fly was to save the airline because they knew if they didn't the airline and their careers would be toast.
Now the pilots are relegated to the dugout as the replacement workers take to the mound as the relief pitchers. If they win, you win, if they fail, you fail.

 

[Dizel8]

WS,

Good point, although sad!

 

[Deli Guy]

OK,
I should have left out the fart story. It was just an amazing series of events that I should have kept to myself. Yes, I crossed a picket line to get to work. There is no way to see it another way. Please reread my take on why the picket line is there to begin with.

 

[Redmeat]

Widow's Son,

You seem to have given this a lot of thought. Where do you think the flight attendants fit/play in this? Management has replacements for them as well, but not nearly the ratio, 1200 replacements for about 8,500 I believe. Doesn't seem to be enough if they walk. I am wondering if there will be more hard-line PFAA'ers than replacements.

Deli, funny story, sad situation. What is your perception of the PFAA wild card?

 

[klhoard]

OK,
I should have left out the fart story. It was just an amazing series of events that I should have kept to myself. Yes, I crossed a picket line to get to work. There is no way to see it another way. Please reread my take on why the picket line is there to begin with.

.
.
.
It's a good thing you didn't have diahhrea!!! (I concede spelling)
.
.
.